woldson Posted April 1, 2010 Share Posted April 1, 2010 Rusty cam on a engine that was running, oh boy. Take it in and ask for a cost. Tell them everything. Good to know your compression was good. (even though it is not a tell all) How much water, milky stuff was in your oil? Hard to believe that just that gasket could let in that much water. Might be wishfull thinking. On the cam, how much ware is their on the wipe, vs, the non wiped area. From the pictures it looks like little to none. If you main problem is a simple fix, When you fill her up with oil I would run it for a while in driveway with seafoam, then drain oil. Replace with roaly purple synthetic. Use napa gold filter on frist oil change and then second. Kinda pricey but you got to get everything you can out of that engine quickly. No matter what, you have to at least pull the head in my view to determind as much as you can. Murphy gots you by the balls, be careful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSM Posted April 1, 2010 Share Posted April 1, 2010 I think I would try and get another head from the JY if your cost comes into high for the rebuild. Once you get it put back together and new oil in, I would not run the engine very long before your first oil change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathhh Posted April 2, 2010 Author Share Posted April 2, 2010 (edited) Rusty cam on a engine that was running, oh boy. Take it in and ask for a cost. Tell them everything. Good to know your compression was good. (even though it is not a tell all) How much water, milky stuff was in your oil? Hard to believe that just that gasket could let in that much water. Might be wishfull thinking. On the cam, how much ware is their on the wipe, vs, the non wiped area. From the pictures it looks like little to none. If you main problem is a simple fix, When you fill her up with oil I would run it for a while in driveway with seafoam, then drain oil. Replace with roaly purple synthetic. Use napa gold filter on frist oil change and then second. Kinda pricey but you got to get everything you can out of that engine quickly. No matter what, you have to at least pull the head in my view to determind as much as you can. Murphy gots you by the balls, be careful. Wow you just took the wind out of me. How long do i have before its no longer good? Gaskets wont come for about a week. Is that too long? I have yet to take the head bolts out let alone came and wedge the chain. Is surface rust on a few cam lobes really that bad? It sat in a garage i was told for 10 years. Oil change immediately the guy told me, and then i got to see it about a couple hundred miles after the change he claimed. I do not know how much water was in the oil, but i can get a picture if that will help any of the oil in the bucket where it is still sitting. I know that before i ran the engine, the engine oil looked suspicious but it looked like it was okay. Then i turned it on and the smoke etc, milky oil. Anyways, what are the key factors in going to a machine shop and asking about the lobes, head etc and clearances and what to avoid. I remember seeing a post where someone said make sure they give you clearances before and what it would be after. But could someone run me through that again, what i should do and say to the machine shop? #@!$ you murphy. Does the rust on the cam look as bad as you made it sound? Ive read that some guys have some surface rust and they sand it off with high grit paper or steel wool...if the rust is badd and the cam should be junked, anyone have a good one to sell me at a VERY good price Anyways, i gotta sleep somewhat good, so i pray that everything turns out well and for the better and my engine will be blessed man, that it will survive and live a ton longer! Edited April 2, 2010 by Heathhh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woldson Posted April 2, 2010 Share Posted April 2, 2010 Everything ran okay, not great but not horrible either the day of purchase last year August-ish. This is my problem, you've been running the car since then? Me thinks problem with communication. Even an old cam in an engine with 100k will take some time to rust. Let alone outside an engine, at least around here. Gut says engine may be ok, however, you need to do due dilligence. #@!$ you murphy Once again, bad idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathhh Posted April 2, 2010 Author Share Posted April 2, 2010 (edited) Everything ran okay, not great but not horrible either the day of purchase last year August-ish. This is my problem, you've been running the car since then? Me thinks problem with communication. Even an old cam in an engine with 100k will take some time to rust. Let alone outside an engine, at least around here. Gut says engine may be ok, however, you need to do due dilligence. #@!$ you murphy Once again, bad idea. Well here is the thing, i have posted a thread awhile ago asking for some guidance on how to get the engine to good shape because the idle became in my opinion, became severely "wacky" in other terms very erratic. This is what brought me to the point to fix it. When i had bought the car, the car ran fairly good i thought in my opinion. At the guys place, he just said to warm it up, he started it in front of me and the idle acted like it wanted to die. He just gave it some gas to keep the idle up, and in no time the car began to idle properly and sounded decently well. To me, it was just like an older car where it had some issues yeah, but nothing too major that it was surly fixable the minor issues it had. So, after purchase i had used it as a daily for a couple months. It ran good within its operational state and had some good kick to it. Felt like the engine had a lot of potential although it being so old it needed a few things so until then i wont experience what it is lacking in power. Well about 1-2 months after purchase is when the car felt like it needing some TLC but i couldn't quite put my hand on what it needed because i am new to wrenching and especially this type of engine. Soon after that, the idle became worse and i had this problem where the engine would start up fine, but if i were to press the gas any time during idle or at operating temperature, the idle would suddenly drop down low to near 400-500rpms and it would be struggling to stay alive. Any time on the highway though, the car ran good but lacked that power and kick. I assume that is because vacuum is better maintained at higher speeds which made it feel fine when driven at higher speeds. I still ran the car for about another month, and it did not change from that state of poor operation meaning it did not get better nor worse. I put it up for the winter and with the help on HbZ i got to work learning my way. Bought many tools and testing equipment. That is when i tested everything i have listed in the top of this thread. It is when i deemed my engine as having a vacuum leak as that fit the problem description i was having. Fast forwarding, i replaced many vacuum hoses/lines and cleaned all connections etc. I then started the engine up about a week ago and i was hoping with my confidence that all my hard work was about to pay off. The engine started up fair, and then when it got to idling for the cold temperature it seemed that it was "alive" that it was now in good shape. Suddenly the rpm's drop, my jaw opens, and smoke starts coming from the engine bay, underneath the intake/exhaust manifolds. And hence the start of the tear down. That is currently where i am at. So technically, i was not running the car since then but trying to fix it instead, of the vacuum leak it did have. Occasionally i did start the car up in the garage during the winter, got it to operating temp and tested to see if various things i corrected had fixed the vacuum leak, which none of the fixes had done. Murphy part To hate Murphy is a bad thing? Maybe you had misunderstood, i agree with Murphy's law, but am cursing it because it sucks. I know that i should use the money to do it now, instead of facing problems later, that is what i do agree with but Murphy itself just isn't fun. Sorry i did not make that clear, honestly. Edited April 2, 2010 by Heathhh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woldson Posted April 2, 2010 Share Posted April 2, 2010 Murphy likes the reactions. You want him to go away, so you just kinda ignore him. I'm not superstitious, just well, I've seen and had it happen to many times. Well that seems like good news, you had a failure and quite driving it. Just that short time may not have caused any permanet damage. The engine still moves freely? Note the "seems" and "may". Think of this as a good learning experience. Not that you really wanted to learn right at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossman Posted April 2, 2010 Share Posted April 2, 2010 Take the head off, clean it and carefully inspect it. Take close up pictures of the block deck, gasket and head and post them here. We can help. It may be obvious that the head has a crack in it. If it has a crack then buy a known good one. Or get a junk yard head and have it rebuilt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossman Posted April 2, 2010 Share Posted April 2, 2010 Also you might want to ask one of the mods to move this thread to the L6 section. It's not S130 specific and you might get more help there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathhh Posted April 2, 2010 Author Share Posted April 2, 2010 The rust on the cam lobes wiped off kinda easily. Did not wipe it but once or twice and some rust came off. Should be getting everything else off this weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathhh Posted April 8, 2010 Author Share Posted April 8, 2010 Take the head off, clean it and carefully inspect it. Take close up pictures of the block deck, gasket and head and post them here. We can help. It may be obvious that the head has a crack in it. If it has a crack then buy a known good one. Or get a junk yard head and have it rebuilt. Took it all off, wedged the chain etc. Here is a direct link to all the pictures i took (23 pictures, too many for here) of the block deck with the gasket on, then the block deck with the gasket off, then the head on the manifold side, then the head on the underside etc. Engine Tear Down Pictures Make sure that you read the title on the pictures, and the description below the picture to best know what your looking at if you are not sure. I did try to organize them as best as possible, click to enlarge them. One thing i want to mention is the most coolant found was in the center of the head and block. It is where coolant was found puddled on top of the pistons and most on top of the gasket surface both on the engine block and on the head. (Do i want to dry that out right now with a paper towel, and then apply some oil to the cylinder walls after wards?) I am unsure of how to clean each different surface accordingly. Look at the pictures if you would and then give me some comments on how they look please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossman Posted April 8, 2010 Share Posted April 8, 2010 I'm assuming that you drained the coolant and what is in the pictures was already in the cylinders before the head was removed. Soak up the coolant with blue shop towels and spray the cylinders down with WD40 to keep them from rusting. Use fine steel wool or scotch brite on the head's combustion chambers to remove the carbon deposits. Be careful, avoid scuffing the head sealing surface. Use your hands not a power tool. Inspect every mm of the head and combustion chamber for cracks once you got it clean. Take a long straight edge and check to see if the head is warped along it's length or twisted. It's best to use a machinists straight edge but you can use a square to get a rough idea. If it's anything but flat, you need to have it surfaced. Might as well check the block deck too. Is it my imagination or is the head gasket ovaled around the cylinders? If so, then that is an indication that the engine has had some detonation problems. Make sure the timing is set correctly. As others have said, your best option is to have a competent shop inspect and rebuild the head. If you don't want to spend the money and the head is flat with no perceptible cracks then you could try just replacing the head gasket. You risk further damage to your engine if it continues to dump coolant into the cylinders. There may be a crack that only opens up when the head gets warm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woldson Posted April 8, 2010 Share Posted April 8, 2010 Their is a lot of things that look not right. At this point I hope that some one with tons of experience weighs in, I don't want to steer you wrong. BTW, good job at documentation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathhh Posted April 8, 2010 Author Share Posted April 8, 2010 I'm assuming that you drained the coolant and what is in the pictures was already in the cylinders before the head was removed. Soak up the coolant with blue shop towels and spray the cylinders down with WD40 to keep them from rusting. Use fine steel wool or scotch brite on the head's combustion chambers to remove the carbon deposits. Be careful, avoid scuffing the head sealing surface. Use your hands not a power tool. Inspect every mm of the head and combustion chamber for cracks once you got it clean. Take a long straight edge and check to see if the head is warped along it's length or twisted. It's best to use a machinists straight edge but you can use a square to get a rough idea. If it's anything but flat, you need to have it surfaced. Might as well check the block deck too. Is it my imagination or is the head gasket ovaled around the cylinders? If so, then that is an indication that the engine has had some detonation problems. Make sure the timing is set correctly. As others have said, your best option is to have a competent shop inspect and rebuild the head. If you don't want to spend the money and the head is flat with no perceptible cracks then you could try just replacing the head gasket. You risk further damage to your engine if it continues to dump coolant into the cylinders. There may be a crack that only opens up when the head gets warm. Yes the coolant was drained and that is what was already in there. The gasket looks to have a VERY SLIGHT oval, but that could be from the camera angle in addition to different shades of dark colors around the gasket as well. It looked "straight" in person, but the timing had been off awhile until i had corrected it mid winter too. I called a shop just the other day and they told me to resurface it is in the neighborhood of 50-70 i believe he said, and to inspect for cracks that is an additional 35? Im fairly sure that is what he said because when he said so, i thought about 100$ to do this is good and i wont have a problem getting the head machined then. Do shops usually disassemble and assemble heads possibly for an extra fee and also clean the entire head, or do i myself have to take the head completely apart and then send it to them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathhh Posted April 8, 2010 Author Share Posted April 8, 2010 Their is a lot of things that look not right. At this point I hope that some one with tons of experience weighs in, I don't want to steer you wrong. BTW, good job at documentation! I would like that as well. I appreciate it guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossman Posted April 8, 2010 Share Posted April 8, 2010 I am no expert so like Woldson, I don't want to lead you astray. If you take it to a shop you might as well have them do a valve job too. I would ask around at your local Z club or HybridZ'ers in the area and find out if there is a shop in the area that knows how to work on these heads. Shops used to working on American push rod engines may screw it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathhh Posted April 8, 2010 Author Share Posted April 8, 2010 (edited) I am no expert so like Woldson, I don't want to lead you astray. If you take it to a shop you might as well have them do a valve job too. I would ask around at your local Z club or HybridZ'ers in the area and find out if there is a shop in the area that knows how to work on these heads. Shops used to working on American push rod engines may screw it up. I called these guys here who i got referenced to for machining services. North Western Auto Machine. They seem to be very knowledgeable from site appearance, also the fact they have been in business since the 1930's, and that when i called the guy at the shop, he just asked what car, i told him 82' Datsun 280zx, and he said, "About $$ for resurfacing and $$ for checking." He didn't seem to hesitate so i feel that he at least knows the engine and has likely worked on some before. Other than that, can anyone give me advice on what to ask them about anything or tell them so that i can assure that this is some place that i will want to send the head to be done? The WMZ club around here seems to have died off...Their site has not been updated i want to say in 2 years, and i've contacted them with no replys back. Apart from that, im asking a couple other HBzR's at the moment as well for shop suggestions if they have any. Edited April 8, 2010 by Heathhh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathhh Posted April 9, 2010 Author Share Posted April 9, 2010 Well i still hope someone out there sees this and has great knowledge that can help me. Possibly any site administrators that have the wealth of knowledge? Aside from that, here is 2 new pictures of the engine block surface that i have best cleaned for over 2 hours carefully. As you can see, there still seems to be dyed marks still left behind. What i have found is that there are very small pin-dents around some of the oil and coolant holes as well. I would like to know if this is clean enough or should i really try to get this looking like new and nothing else? Also, in addition to that question i would like to know what are the proper gasket applying techniques i should be using with each according gasket. Do i need any sealer, copper spray, or anything in between to better seal the gaskets to the surfaces, or just clean and apply without anything extra but the gaskets themselves to the head, manifolds etc? Help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woldson Posted April 10, 2010 Share Posted April 10, 2010 Strong flash O light. Look for cracks in block surface, look down in timing cover for possible cracks. Would not hurt replacing water pump at this time, look for cracks their. Look very carfuly at the head gasket, look for any compromise from coolent holes to anywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woldson Posted April 10, 2010 Share Posted April 10, 2010 Search on head gaskets, their is a wealth of info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathhh Posted April 12, 2010 Author Share Posted April 12, 2010 Search on head gaskets, their is a wealth of info. Have not found any cracks in the block, will look at the head later tonight. Planning on sending the head out to the shop this coming weekend if it looks good. So far i have gathered this amount of information. Common used gaskets include the OEM Ishino and Fel Pro. A lot of people complain about their gasket failing and thus blame it on the brand which usually is the Fel Pro. And then a corresponding argument arises saying, "You must have not installed the gasket correctly." I am not saying either brand is better than the other, I'm just stating what i have read multiple times. I myself chose to go with the OEM Ishino head gasket because if the original gasket in the engine lasted for over 30 years and 100,000 miles, then I'd like to stick with that brand. In addition to that, about half and half suggest using the Copper Spray applied to the gasket before installing the gasket, others say they didn't have luck with it or don't need to use it. The "stains" that appear on my block surface from what i have searched upon seems to be a normal thing. It may look like there is gasket material still on there, but if it is truly flat, the "stains" are okay is what i have learned. There is one thing i would like to further discuss though, if people can honestly install a gasket incorrectly if it seems like such an easy task, what is the honest to God correct way to install the gasket? There are 2 small bolt guides that protrude from the engine block surface that help guide the gasket and can actually hold it in place very well i assume. When taking the previous gasket off, those suckers were stuck on pretty tight. So, with the block being smooth and clean, and the head as well, how hard can it be placing the head gasket on correctly and carefully making sure it is in exact position and then carefully placing the head on top and inserting bolts/torquing down accordingly and accurately? Thanks guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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