brainstorming s130 build

[Gollum]

@ Gollum

1: I do plan to drag it maybe once a wk during the race season, but I also want it to be comfortable enough to take on a few cruises. 2: I think ill go w/ the turbo model so I can get the r200. I wont be part of any circuits, I want it to be fast in street trim. I will prolly end up doing that rear end swap, any threads about swapping a solid axel in? Yeah I def plan on doing a full cage after I get the swap done in stage 2.

 

Hmmm ill keep that in mind w/ the ps, I plan to run 16†300zx wheels all the way around for street & 15x10 slicks when I race @ the track. 3: 275 out back & 255s up front is more than enough tire, plus I can do the slicks when its time to run.

 

I’m from Pa, so it doesn’t get too terribly hot too long but that where the t-tops come into play. That’s great news about the 2500lbs or less too, yea ill look into swapping over to FG bumpers & hood, running an a/c delete pulley & as many manual options as I can get.

 

4: I’m shooting for low 10s if possible. Mpg is also very important case I drive a lot & I wanna get a lot of seat time in the car.

 

5: The l28et & VG30ET are cool & were good choices but they aren’t efficient enough 4 my build. 1st I want something newer & cheaper to get parts for, w/ incredible gas milage (my 2000 olds gets 29mpg) that makes more power, cheaper.

 

Don't try to take this next post as an attack, I'm just trying to flush more information out of you.

 

1: Does this mean in a competitive fashion though? We've already been looking for this info out of you in this thread. Are you running a specific class? What limitations will be involved? Or are you just going to the track during open track days?

 

2: You don't need a turbo model for a R200. You mentioned wanting a later chassis, so just get any manual trans car and it'll have a 3.9 R200 in it already.

 

3: In this case I wouldn't even bother with a solid diff and tubing the rear. Just stick with the stock suspension and make it work. It'll save you time and fabrication costs.

 

4: Low 10's? I'm confused. Earlier you started with saying 11's maybe 10's. You need to nail down what you're really looking for.

 

5: Careful, as some might take that personally. There's quite a lot of guys getting 300+ even 400+ wheel HP out of L28ET motors knocking back well over 30mpg on highway drives. Same goes for VG30ET too! Both of these motors would support 400wheel hp on stock internals, without even taking the heads off, so be careful to call them "not effiient". They might be "old" in some ways, but they're certainly great motor options. I'm not saying you have to use one, I'd just rather hear you say "well I know the buick motors well" or "I'm just biased towards *****." Those are perfectly good excuses to go with a motor, but knocking down a suggestion like you did reeks of ignorance towards them. Which if fine, if it's admitted. I personally wouldn't go with a motor I didn't know anything about, because I'm ignorant (by definition) to those motors requirements and benefits.

 

 

All of this leads me to just beg you for more detailed responses. I can understand that some people find communicating on forums a tedious task, but you'll only get out what you put in. If you want in-depth and insightful responses then you need to get really specific about your questions and show that you've done your homework. I have a strong feeling I'm wrong about this, but you kind of come off as some 19 year old kid behind a computer that knows just enough to post some ideas like these in a thread but have no real clue on what you're actually wanting out of a car project. If I'm wrong I'm more than happy to hear the truth, I'm just sharing how this thread has come across.

 

I first posted because you seemed kind put off by the fact nobody was giving you good info, so I'm doing my best to see if you can actually handle good info. If you show yourself able to receive it, I'll pour out more of what I know.

Edited March 27, 2011 by Gollum

[Calico]

@ Gollum- Never apologize if your speakin ur honest feelings, Ack. Your insight was well received & I certainly encourage more of it. Ive owned two Z32s, worked ona few z31s & a slew of other cars. I’m not 19 but I’ve never built an hybrid.

 

1. I like grudge races. I want track open day & heads up style racing. No class nothing.

 

2. Thanx I aint know that about the 3.9 r200.

 

3. Yeah that’s prolly what ill start out w/ & if I need more then I can always upgrade later.

 

4: I wanted 11s/10s until I started learning about the series II motor & saw a few guys have em in the 8s. Then I got greedy and things snowballed. also I found myself keeping up w/ the jones (local rich guy). Also an my current car is close enough to the 11s so jumping ship wouldn’t be worth it financially. Tens on a DD would be tho.

 

5: No need for any1 to feel any type of way?! there is nothing wrong w/ me havin a different having a different opinion. A z31 gets 30mpg w/ 450rwhp?

 

Not efficient enough isn’t tactful, but its accurate. How about the Series II makes more power, cheaper, easier &more reliably that the vg30et. Nothing wrong w/ the vg30et, l28et but its not going to meat the goals that I need on my budget.

1. 380 rwhp in the Series II consists of a te67 turbo, a good intercooler , 92 octane, 1.9 rockers w/LS6 valvesprings.

2. For reliable 400+whp= cam, te67 turbo, a good intercooler @ 14psi. One of the guys I have quoted earlier has sheets for 520whp on a PT6776 on 92 octane.

 

I never say anything w/o providing back up, so here is a link of a guy who’s doin an 11.3 w/ an Series II in his 3800lb Buick Grand national. http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/general-turbo-buick-tech/257876-series-ii-l67-grand-national.html

Here is a thread, one of many where a few respected members discuss the vg30ets power level capability.

http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php?/topic/39558-swap-vg30et-power-potential-vg30dett/

 

In the thread, Jason84NA-T states he makes 383RWHP at 18PSI w/ a larger turbo(Size??), intercooler, maf and 420cc injectors. Heres his FAQ on the build. http://www.redz31.net/turbofaq/turbo.faq.htm

 

Lets do some price comparison:

 

3.8 Series II =280hp Stock@ 6 psi(supercharged)

GTP Pcm retuned-125

Walbro 340 gpl Fuel pump-100

Comp Cams Xtreme Energy L67 Cam 1(basic)-320

1.9 rockers-$274.99

LS6 valvesprings. $100

PT6776 turbo-

a good intercooler.

93 octane

One of the guys I have quoted earlier has sheets for 520whp on a on 92 octane w/ this exact set up.

 

VG30et=200hp stock @ 7psi

Turbo

ADJUSTABLE CAM GEARS-230

JWT cams are $560

Ferrea Valve springs-??

Intercooler-$200

Walbro 255gpl Fuel pump-$100

Bosch 1975 Mercedes Benz 450SEL injectors-$840

Top feed fuel rails-??

JIM WOLF 450HP (4BAR): $600

93 octane

360-400RWHP

 

See the price difference? The vg30et/l28et can make comparable power but at a much greater expense, for less returned power. Also parts 4 my 2000 olds intrigue is always in stock, let alone all over the u-pull its.

[Gollum]

Yay, you responded with what I was looking for. How about that.

 

I still wouldn't say you're not going with the L28ET or VG30ET because they're "inefficient" but rather "not financially agreeable to your wallet" Nothin' wrong with that.

 

Search these forums high and low for threads from Scottie-GNZ. He had an extremely fast buick V6 powered S30 that really tore it up.

 

Also, it's not an unsolvable problem, but at around 400 wheel HP the 280ZX's whole rear suspension subframe will want to flex it's bushings just enough to shred tires if you're not careful. People have solved the problem before and information is out there. It gets touched on here, and Tony D talks about it well enough I won't try to convey it myself.

 

http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php/topic/95522-guess-the-280zx-turbo-rwhp-based-only-on-dyno-video/page__view__findpost__p__900585

 

The S130 is a great chassis, and I think you'll like it. It has all the handling potential of the Z31 with serious low weight potential.

 

For the front bumper, I'm somewhat liking the new MSA front air dam - http://www.thezstore.com/page/TZS/PROD/7FAD/50-1444 If you're not concerned about having a front bumper, you can just ditch it entirely with that FG air dam. The rear I'd just pull off and then weld in the gap flush. Between the two bumpers and a FG hood that's almost all the weight savings most street driven S130's will ever need. (note that I don't condone pulling bumpers off street cars as that's illegal)

[Calico]

I like u gollum, i saw alot of your other posts & ur insightful, Ack. I was hoping to engage u in a side tangent on the vg30et vs series II motor, friendly duel so to speak! To this end i wont comprimise in my wording. The vg30et,l28et & vg30det & dett are all efficient motors, but not nearly as efficient as a turbo Series II when i comes to hp/tq per $$ invested, mpg or CID. People swap the Series II into feiros & run 12.8s an lower bone stock. No mods.

 

1. can the the vg30et make as much power as the Series II motor, yes. but wat do u think will b easier to reach low tens in w/o pushing the limits of the motor? The extremely conservative Series II motor makes 300hp stock at around 9psi supercharged.

 

3. Yup i kno Scott & mattgnz fairly well, but the series II motor is the new, updated, ready heres that word again....more efficient version of the grand national motor. I should know, I have an 2000 oldsmobile w/a series II & I have an 84 Buick Regal w/an 87 grand national drivetrain. The series II is light yrs ahead of every motor mentioned above in everyway possible. Real rap.

 

I'll look into that rear sub frame issue in the meantime if u wud like i can provide a link of guys pullin the 3.8s out of their grand nationals to swap in series II motors?

 

I have a few tricks for the front & rear bumpers. Thanx bro i honestly really appreciate ur time helpin me discuss this build.

[Gollum]

The VG30DETT's main drawback is it's size and initial cost. I have every reason to believe the VG30DETT is just as capable with as many stock parts as a 2JZ motor. I know that's saying a lot, but there aren't nearly as many guys building VG30DETTS as 2JZ's, probably because it's not the "cool" thing to do. I'd never condone the VG30DETT in a S30 or even S130 though. These engine bays are long, but not wide enough to fit one and still be able to easily/comfortably work on it. It's like a ford mod motor in a Z, it's just too tight to have fun (to me at least).

 

Where the series ll motor really shines (in my opinion) compared to these other options is displacement. If the series ll wasn't pushing the numbers it is then I'd say it had crappy heads, but it doesn't. With it's 3.8" bore size it's got plenty of room for a nice big intake valve to let that motor breathe compared to the relatively cramped 3.43" bore of the VG and 3.39" of the L motor. But at nearly 4 liters the series ll is better compared to engines of similar size. I'm not sure on the weight of the buick, but I know an assembled longblock 1UZFE weighs in just little over 400# but it quickly gets up over 500# when adding liquids and accessories. Those motors make over 250hp NA stock, and will easily reach 500hp on stock internals with boost (at which point the 10:1 compression ratio will not like more boost due to knock threshold limits). These motors are cheap and available everywhere. Their main issue is that they have crap for auto trans and manual trans options. So custom is the only way to go. That adds up. Plus you'll be making your own turbo manifolds most likely, that adds up. This affordable motor's bane is that it's too costly due to the rarity of it being built up for boost.

 

The VQ35DE is close in displacement to the series ll, but can get really expensive to build if you're not careful, and came with high compression, making high HP turbo builds require some form of race gas to break the 600 wheel hp make safely.

 

At any rate, if you're shooting for 10's with room to grow, the series ll will be a wonderful budget option. That I can definitely agree with.

 

Regarding MPG, having a turbo motor will great help. Then it's just up to how much time you want to spend tuning the low load/high vacuum portions of your maps and how lean you're willing to take it on the highway. Any motor will do. There's guys getting nearly 30mpg with 400+ wheel HP LS V8's on this board. Shocking, but true. Turbo that beast and you can get 700+ hp and hardly affect highway MPG still. One of the keys to that motor's brilliant MPG is it's .5 overdrive T56.

[Calico]

Tony D-I'm sorry i missed ur post i got so sucked into my bench race debate! Thanx very much 4 da info on da euro bumpers! How much do they cost & where can i get a pair? As far as the given speed, basically i have a grudge match w/ alot of the import/subcompact guys in my area. I enjoy friendly competition but we also have put some $$ up + bragging rights. Every yrs i crush their imports w/ my buick but now they have gotten $$$ & lsx swap kits. Now i have to arise to the challenge this yr or fall back, Dig?

 

Gollum the 2jz is really common but the parts for them arent cheap, neither are the rb26dett ect. If i break down on the side of the orad i wanna be able to walk into any autozone on the side of the road and get my race back on the asphalt. No matter where i go i can get Series II parts because they came in so many new cars, not really a traditional buick motor but jus GM, like da lsx. the Series II weight 375-400lbs complete! You can also get a Series II drive train, engine, transaxel, harness, ecm, axels, fuel pump for $300 @ any u pull it(the one near me will even let you hear it run & pull it for you for $100). As far as trannys go id jus do a 4l60e, mild build it will def hold a megar 400rwhp & in a 2500lb car it wont be much strain.

 

VQ35DE is a good platform but again, the Series II comes w/ low compression in the supercharged version, I can post better specs about the heads & intake as well later.

 

I dont wanna cum off as a GM nazi, its not the case i love nissan/datsun(which is why im choosing the z over the rx7 that comes w/ a swap kit). If i could pick id have a vh45de, w/n2o ina z32! But thats unrealistic for my $$$ & i gotta be ready to do tens by the summer.

 

 

If i keep my buick im goin lsx, lq9, turbo cooledw/ 4l80e, problem w/ an lsx in a datsun is that its not a sleeper. i wont be trikcing anyone, but w/ a 3.8 vs 2.8 who will be able to audially tell the diff?

[Calico]

Figured id do a lil teaser pic...An old pic but still.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Calico

[Calico]

So here is an update:

modified the stock oil pan to clear cross member, fabricated motor mounts that bolt in stock location on crossmember,(need to adjust the mount points).

Currently in the process of fabricating my turbo manifolds and downpipe.

Wasnt as easy as things could have been but I was able to re-use all the stock mounting points, especially the stock datsun trans mount.