BRAAP

Which Fluid damper are you using to custom fit on the L-28 crank?

The N/A L-28 is running GREAT on MSnS-E with EDIS-6. I plugged in the LM-1 and its WB-o2, running it stand alone at the moment, and I now have the WOT map set pretty close with min and max AFR values of 12.3:1 and 13.5:1 between 2000-6800 RPM. Just little more tuning left for my WOT map. I recently found Phil Tobin’s Mega Log Viewer, and BOY HOWDY what a wonderful and powerful tool that is. After I program the LM-1 output, I’ll be able to data log the AFR together with all the other MS data logging features. Can’t wait… My question is how do set a new “hot key” for starting and stopping a data log session? I would like to use the space bar for convenience sake. The lap top sits in the passenger seat of the race car as I drive and reaching over to use the touch pad to drop down menus while all harnessed up is a bit of a hassle, to say the least. Is there any way to set up “Hot keys” for data logging “start” and “stop” other than the “Alt L” for starting and using a drop down menu for stopping? Thanks guys, Paul

Pete, I am currently using the Ford EDIS Cap on the Chrysler coil pack. I’ve thought about installing the Chrysler one as well. Probably could hurt right? As for the warpage, typically, when a head warps, it bows up in the middle and wont necessarily rock, unless it also acquired a twist, which also happens sometimes. Any how, with the head on your bare block as you described with no gasket, try sticking feeler gauges under the very center of the head between #3 and #4 exhaust ports on the intake/exhaust side of the head, between the head and the block itself. If you can get any feeler gauges between the head and block surfaces around the perimeter, you can rest assured the warpage is even worse at the very narrow region in the middle head between #3 and #4. At any rate, I’m sure your machinist will throw his straight edge on it for you. Thanks again for all your input. I hope to have the innovate LM-1 with the RPM converter hooked up in the car today for some initial data logging and map tuning.

The cause of the dreaded RESET issue has been identified. The cause ultimately boils down to negligence from yours truly… Ok guys, NOT so new info here that ALL of you running or planning to run MS should be aware of…. When I started this thread, I was confused as to why these resets were happening. Only under certain specific conditions would this take place. Those conditions were, Serial cable plugged into the MS controller, and the engine running. With the serial cable hooked up to the MS controller and lap top plugged in, engine OFF, I could communicate, fetch and burn back and forth with the MS controller just fine, no resets. As soon as I fired up the engine with serial cable plugged in it was “reset” city. If the serial cable wasn’t connected to the MS controller, the engine would run great with no resets. Kind of points to the serial cable connection, but only when the engine is running? Hmmm… that doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. Well I did solder a ground wire within the MS linking the Serial connector outer shield to pin 19 of the DB-37. Hooked everything back up and…. Now it would reset no matter what! Ok, so apparently I was barking up the wrong tree with that serial connector ground thing… Now with no direction to follow, I knew I had to start thinking outside box, you know, like go back and check the very BASICS. With the serial cable connected, cranking the engine, MS goes through these resets. Just for giggles, I unplugged the coil pack. Cranked on the engine , NO resets, the lap top display showed the engine cranking, but of course it didn’t start up or even sputter, but it did NOT reset. Hmmm… So I plugged in the coil pack, cranked on it again, resets like crazy, pops and sputters. I disconnected the plug wires from the coil pack but left the power and trigger wires plugged into the coil pack and cranked on it again, (probably not good for the coil pack or EDIS module, but I needed to try it any how). It cranked fine, NO resets.. Hmmmmm…. This is starting to look like EMF interference from the cheesy high tension leads causing the resets with the serial cable plugged in, (serial cable acting like an antenna picking up that EMF? Who knows…) Now we all know that MS is hyper sensitive to electronic noise, and as such, resistor plugs and quality plug wires are a MUST! My Magnecor wires for this car are on still on order, so I’m still using old plug wires from my ’91 Chev pickup. So I thought some Jacobs wires would be a good test as they are supposed to be a quality performance wire. Hooked them up, cranked on the engine and no change, they still cause the resets just the same. My good friend Ron Tyler then suggested I try a set of his used Magnecor KV-85 wires that he ran on his OE Dizzy powered L-28 last year. So we cobbled them on to the coil pack as the connectors are wrong, cranked on the engine with serial cable plugged in and WA LAAA… the engine fired right up and NO resets. I swapped plug wires back and forth several times not believing the results, and every time, the Magnecor wires did NOT reset, but the cheesy wires did! Then for giggles, I thought I’d check my spark plugs just to verify they were in deed resistor type as I had assumed I installed resistor plugs just prior to starting the MS conversion. and… OOOpps.. must of overlooked that.. No they are not. Okie dokie So I grabbed a new set of resistor plugs in the proper heat range off the shelf, installed them, and wa la, no more resets even with the crappy wires. What we discovered, Magnecor wires subdue EM noise enough that non resistor plugs can be run even with the Hyper sensitive MS controller, and those wires when ran with resistor plugs, helps keep the high tension EM noise to a minimum. Lesson to be learned here?.. YOUBET!!!!! Don’t skimp on plug wires! What I mean by that is only use high QUALITY performance plug wires that are shielded for sensitive electronics, not some willy-nilly nifty wires because they are a particular color… I mean wires like Magnecor. Also, MAKE DARN SURE you are also using a RESISTOR spark plug for a daily driver! Now I can get on with the tuning phase. All I need now is to find a way to get a +5v source from MS to power my Innovate MAP sensor for data logging. I would prefer to pull another +5v source from MS, but I may just tap into the +5v TPS ref source…

Woldson, Thank you for your input. I’m going to try Pete’s advice and solder a ground wire from the Serial connector outer shield to a DB-37 ground pin. I’ll update after the mod…

Ok, I did some more playing around with the “reset” issue tonight. I was able to narrow this issue down even further, but I still have absolutely no clue as to why the resets are taking place…. Here is the brief version of what I found this evening. In a nut shell, as long as the outer metal shield that surrounds the Serial connector is grounded to body ground, there are NO resets and the engine runs. Now here is the interesting part of this That metal shield surrounding the serial connector isn’t grounded or connected to anything on the MS board, and as far as I understand, it shouldn’t be, i.e. it is built correctly, so what gives???? Why does that outer band surrounding my Serial port need to be grounded to the body? Here are the details…. With JUST the serial cable connected to the MS controller, nothing on the other end, if I take the other end of the serial cable and hold it so that the outer metal shell is touching a “body ground”, (Serial cable grounded to a body screw circled in green), NO RESETS and the engine runs great!!! As soon as I take it off the body ground, the engine dies, and goes through multiple resets, but as long as I hold the metal portion of the serial cable end on a suitable body ground, everything is OK, NO resets…. In an effort o see if it something with the board or serial connector on the MS board is amiss, I disassembled the MS controller and all the solder joints look terrific. (RS Auto Sport built this MS controller and I am very pleased with the build quality and the customer service right after the purchase, though neither Rodney or Steve have replied to my last two E-mails in regards to questions concerning this issue… Hmmmm) I then reconnected the MS to the car, without the end cap of the MS controller that surrounds the serial connector, fired up the engine and it was gong through the reset again, even without the Serial cable connected. I then connected the serial cable, touched the other end to body ground and it ran great with no resets. My guess is that previous to my disassembling the MS controller, the outer shield was grounding to the car body through the MS controller end cap. It seems that I could fix this issue if I was to ground that outer shield to “body ground” in some fashion. At this time, it appears that would cure this reset issue, BUT, I shouldn’t have to do that, right? It has to be coming from somewhere else because if it is the serial connector needing to be grounded, I couldn’t be the first guy to stumble across this. Maybe it is something else causing this in the first place? ARRGGHHH…. These pics show the serial connector and the surrounding metal shield is highlighted in purple. FWIW, During an ohm check to verify continuity between the serial pins and the solder joints, (that checked out A-OK by the way), I found that the outer metal shield is not electrically connected to any portion of the MS board or any grounds (pin 19 on the DB-37) or any of the serial connector pins.

Thank you. The GM one wire alternator was relocated to the drivers side of the engine do to clearance issue with the radiator I wanted to use. Here you can see the relocated alternator…

Yes, that is a .520” lift cam that we offer, ground by Rebello. That cam is for a Hybrid member, (Silent), and is going in custom N-47 that we are building for his radical stroker street Z. He has been talking about Nitrous as well… I might be installing that same grind into our race car over the winter as well. It would make for a nice mild-moderate race cam.

Ed, Here are some pics of the DIS ignition components on this car. Pic one is of the Chrysler coil pack mounted on the passenger strut tower, and you can just make out the EDIS module itself in the top right corner under the fender bolted to the fender gusset. Pic 2 is of the EDIS module tucked under that fender. Pic 3 and 4 show the OE damper machined down with a Escort 36-1 wheel attached and the VR mounting bracket where the alternator used to reside. There is a 14” cooling fan on the car. It is mounted in front of the radiator on the core support, approx ½ inch off the radiator as a pusher. As long as the car is moving through the air, even at really slow speeds, the temp gauge never rises above 180 degrees, it has no issues with cooling, so fan placement or efficiency was of no concern. It is only to move a little air while sitting in the pits on hot days.

Mario, Yeah, that does sort of make sense, possibly an issue with the serial connector in the MS controller itself or its connection on the PCB board… I’ll look into that tomorrow…. FWIW It did have this reset issue since the first time it fired up, though it seems to have gotten worse since then. I just recently linked it to the serial cable being connected vs not connected. Thanks again, Paul

Pete, Timer interval is currently set at 100, (I played with Timer Intervals between 50 and 150, no change to the reset issue). Serial Data rate is 9600. As for the other stuff, bit rate, stop bits, where would I find that or are those just other terms for the serial baud rate? I was thinking Comm settings as well, till I played with just plugging in the serial cable by itself, no lap top or anything else on the other end of the serial cable, and with just the serial cable plugged into the MS controller all by itself, the resets were worse, to the point the engine wont even run on its own. At lest with the lap top on the other end of the serial cable, the engine will at least run on its own, and over a period of time, the resets start to subside, not completely, but the frequency at which they happen lessens considerably. Are there Comm settings within the MS controller itself that might be causing this conflict with the serial cable being plugged into the serial port of the MS controller? Sure I can still tune around this bug by making a run, data logging that run using our Innovate WB O-2 Data logger, (the data logger would monitor RPM and MAP from a separate map sensor), then shut the engine down all the while keeping MS powered up, alter the VE map based on the Innovate data log, plug the lap top and serial cable into the MS controller, burn the new settings to the MS controller, disconnect the Lap top and serial cable and then go out and make another run to see if my AFR is any closer to where I want it to be… It would be nice to tune “real time” and have the MS gauges at my disposal as well, i.e. be bale to leave the lap top plugged in to the SM controller while driving. That would save a butt load of time in tuning, that for sure. This “reset” issue is the ONLY bug I have with my MS system. Other than this I couldn’t be happier with the amount of control, tunabilty, features, etc. that this MS system offers. WOW! What an upgrade over the “dumb” OE L-jet derivative this system is.

Mario, Thanks for your input. I have not tried an inline power filter, though I had originally wanted to early on as I thought this reset issue was caused by my alternator or ign back feeding my MS power wire. I have since revised that thought based on the premise that when the serial cable is NOT connected to the MS controller, I can drive the car around all I want for as long as I want under all conditions, and MS will NOT reset, even once. It only resets with the serial cable plugged into the MS controller. My hunch maybe way off and if it is, please let me know. FWIW, I did burn in a revised “fuel” and “spark” VE map to the MS controller about an hour ago, then disconnected the lap top, fired up the car and put approx 10 miles on the car driving, approx 30 minutes worth of driving and idling, not one single reset. As soon as I plugged in the serial cable, it was resetting like crazy. A completely different serial cable gave the exact same results. I unplugged the serial cable and the car was back to running great, no hiccups other than some minor flat spots in the RPM range due to a fuel map that needs a bit more attention. Do you guys still think an inline power filter will change the resets caused by a serial cable being connected to MS? I personally hate just throwing money, parts, and time at an issue without knowing if there is even a chance that will fix it.

Moby, The later versions of MSnS-E, (025+), allow for direct Tach control and few other things that when coupled with the latest MT release on a V-3 board, make it quite a bit more user friendly and the latest MT is laid out more intuitively as far as menus go. Configurator does simplify the entire setting up and configuring of MT vs the old cut and paste, (ARRGHH…), but it definitely could be simplified LOTS more, i.e. the current configurator interface is still a bit barbaric compared to the rest of the MT interface we work with on our running engines. That is my take thus far….

Okie Dokie… One issue resolved, another just narrowed down….. Issue number 1, MT communicating with MSnS-E 029q… Like duh.. My bad. Thanks for reminding me to go back and read the instructions… In my 029 folder, I clicked on the “copyini” icon, then went back into the MtConfig, and Wa-La… 029q is an option to choose, so I chose it, clicked activate in the “file” menu, set my MAP sensor and also verified that MSnS-E was selected, plugged in the lap top to the MS Controller, turned on MS and the gauges light up, good communication, no errors… YEE HAAA…. I then made some more basic config changes like setting EDIS, turning off the o2, etc. Burned these settings to the MS controller, turned off MS, disconnected my laptop, rebooted the lap top, reconnected to the MS controller, turned it on and went through and verified that my changes did in deed stay burned to the MS controller, and yes they did. Then, I unplugged the Lap top, pushed in the Honda S-2000 start button and the engine fired right up and revs free. WOO HOO… Thank you guys… Issue #2, the RESET BUG!!!! This bug DID not go away. After much fiddling with “timer interval” under Communications/settings, and no changes, I just turned off the lap top but left it plugged in to the MS controller. No change, it still resets. I then disconnected the lap top from the serial cable but left the cable itself plugged into the MS controller. That made it worse! Unplug the serial cable from the MS controller and the engine runs GREAT, no resets whatsoever. I then grabbed a friends Serial cable, verified that the lap top communicated with MS through this different cable, (yes it did), and that cable acted exactly the same. In short, my MS controller does NOT like to have a serial cable connected with the engine running, especially if the serial cable isn’t connected to the lap top. Break down of issue number 2… With the lap top connected to the MS controller, the engine will start, barely, and run, again barely, on its own as MS will reset randomly and VERY frequent, approx 1-3 times per second for the first minute or so, and as time goes on with the engine running, the resets will happen less often the longer the engine runs. After approx 1-2 minutes of run time, MS will reset randomly once every 5-40 seconds or so, no pattern to the resets or how often, i.e. any throttle position, any RPM, any engine temp, etc, MS just resets once in while, sometimes a couple few times in row. With only the serial cable itself connected the MS controller, (i.e. the lap top is NOT connected), the engine will not run on its own, it will pop and sputter while cranking and the tach will jump up when it does fire which is maybe 10% of the time that it should. Unplug the serial cable and the engine runs GREAT, then plug the serial cable into the controller with the engine running, and it pops, sputters for a approx ½ a second and dies. This MS controller does NOT Like serial cables for some reason… What could cause this? Almost sounds like a grounding issue to me, maybe a ground connection in the MS controller for the serial connector?

Ok, Am I missing something in regards to configuring MT for MS-029q? You all know I’m currently running MS-I, V-3 built by RS Autosport controlling the fuel and spark on a N/A Datsun L-28 inline 6 cylinder with EDIS, http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=103781. It was up and running and running pretty good with approx 2 hours driving time on it with MSnS-E 025 that was tuned with MT release 225 configged for MS-027. I have put off upgrading my firmware long enough so I got REAL brave tonight and burned 029q and re installed the latest MT-225 release… Couple of issues arose from this….…. Issue number 1) In an effort to get the latest and greatest version of MSnS-E and the latest and greatest MATCHING version of MT, I downloaded MSnS-E 029q and the latest MT225 (in the about file of this version of MT, it says written on Feb 5, 8:31, from what I understand this is supposed to be the latest). As I mentioned, I was using MT225 release configged for 027 for the previous MSnS set up. I wanted to have matching MSnS-E and MT so I wasn’t having to constantly click the “NO” button when MT would ask me to “Terminate now” because of a “possible conflict that could be terminal”, every time I hooked my lap top to the MS controller. Any how, after downloading and installing MT, I went into configurator, under MegaTune 225, clicked on the latest MSnS-E that is supported by this version of MT which is only 029c, (not 029q), then under Car1/settings/settings/CODE_VARIANT, I set it to MSNS_EXTRA as specified by Rodney at RS Autosport. When I connect to my MS controller, I still get the SAME error message except that it was expecting 029b, (though I did select 029c, not 029b?!?!?). I click on the “NO” button when asked to terminate now, (something I was trying to get away from in the first place)… Issue number 2) After clicking “NO” when asked to terminate now, I made my initial settings in “constants”, turned on EDIS in the code config and spark settings, activated my Tacho out put pin, and fired up the engine. With the Lap top connected to the MS controller, the engine wont run on its own. Tach just jumps from zero to what ever RPM it is trying to fire off at, and the engine only pops and sputters while under cranking all the while MS goes through “resets” at a rate approx 5 times each second, (My tach flips to ZERO and back with every reset)…..ARRGGHH!!! With the lap top disconnected from the MS controller, the engine will fire right up and rev up nicely even though I have made NO changes to either of the VE tables for fuel or spark and MS appears to not go through any resets, though it has only run for approx 2 minutes on and off with the new firmware . As soon as I plug in the lap top into the controller, even with the engine held at 5000 RPM, the tach goes to zero and the engine shuts off with nary a sputter. I can make changes to the MT and burn them to the controller, but it wont run with the laptop plugged into the controller. As a side note, when I was running 025 in this MS controller, MS would reset on a occasion with the lap top plugged in, mostly below 1500 RPM, but I could at least drive it around with the occasional reset happening and be able to tune on the fly and read the MT gauges. With the lap top disconnected, it would only give me a little bit of trouble below 1500 RPM, not so sure those were resets though. That was then, this is now. The engine will not run with the lap top hooked up and I’m not too excited about having to still bypass that “terminate now” error message…. … I need help guys…

Uhmm… Isn’t pornography illegal on this forum? As a Christian man, (who really needs a lot of help in his walk,) this picture is definitely border line pornographic, for any self respecting car guy…. C’mon guys, honestly.. How many of you could actually resist the temptation of shedding you’re clothes and rubbing against that power plant? I’ll be the first to admit that I couldn’t resist… (I’m going to hell now….)… I'll take two, thank you.....

Hmmm… with ALL that room in front of that V-6 engine, it looks as though there is enough room for at least an R-180 between the strut towers if not an R-200 if the power and traction was crazy enough to warrant an R-200 up front …. If there is not enough room in front of the engine between the front strut towers for a Datsun diff, I do know that the engine can be moved back at least 6 more inches with some fire wall mods that shouldn’t encroach to much on passenger footwell comfort. … The GMC Syclone and Typhoon have a nifty little transfer case for All Wheel Drive Applications… Hmmm. I’d bet the All Wheel Drive Chevy Astro van and GMC Safari uses a similar if not identical transfer case… Hmmmm..mmm…mm… and more Hmmm..hhmmmmm (did I just give away an idea that a few of us Oregon Z nuts have been bench racing about for years? Is there someone out there in need of an extreme Hybrid Z project high in WOW factor that just might read this thread?...) In all honesty, our theories of the all wheel drive Z is that it would make for an awesome rainy day stop light grand prix car, equaling the EVO’s and STI’s and then eclipsing them past 80 MPH. It most likely wouldn’t autocross as well as a nicely set up RWD Hybrid Z with any number of power options under the hood, but think of the WOW factor at the Datsun meets! Honestly, who has actually built an AWD Z? An AWD S30 definitely would get my attention even if it wasn’t as fast as it should be…. Ok, that seed has finally been planted.. lets see who waters it….

Wow there is a lot of room left up front. Hmmm… Stack two of those together, 8.6L 12 cylinder…. Hmmm….

Daniel, There is a chance that you are not experiencing detonation. The fact that you live a mile up, helps reduce your chances of detonation due to less air pressure, (i.e less natural boost). I’m going out on limb here. I’m going to touch on a few controversial topics here that should be covered with much more depth than this, but being as I don’t have the time to explain the physics behind all of this, and that I don’t want to hijack this thread any more than I already have, (yeah, sorry excuse right?). Either just take what I’m posting at face value or if you do have interest in these topics, I urge you to research them on your own. There is lots of good info out there. For example, I highly recommend anything written on these topics by David Vizard and Jeff Hartman. Their writings are backed up with years of practical experience. Dan Baldwin’s personal experience is similar to Daniels, which I would gather is due to Dan B.s more aggressive cam. In practice any how, a more aggressive cam tends to be less sensitive to detonation. It seems that a more aggressive cam tends to allow an engine to run more static compression before the onset of detonation than milder cams for some reason that I do not fully understand, but am trying to figure out. I do not subscribe to the dynamic compression theory as I will describe further down. My guess is that the L-series has elevated combustion temps beyond what would be considered normal, for one reason or another, and that is why they are so octane sensitive to begin with. Some say that that more aggressive cam profiles offer less dynamic compression. Yes, this is true, but ONLY at lower RPM’s. Conventional wisdom dictates that if a bigger cam allows the engine to make more torque at the torque peak as compared to a milder cammed equivalent, that torque increases is because of more cylinder pressure at that RPM, i.e. it is making more dynamic compression at that RPM, therefore more natural boost. If dynamic compression is the reason for the engines propensity for detonation, then a larger cam “should” be more susceptible to detonation especially at torque peak, based on the “pressure” theory. Hmmmm…. Then why isn’t Dan Baldwins engine detonating more than and OE cammed equivalent?... My theory is further down this post;… It is just that, Pauls theory, so don’t take it to the bank, just yet…. I probably should be a little more specific in my comment about flat tops with open chamber heads detonating. It is VERY common that this combination is prone to detonation, though there are a few cases of this combination running with no issues. The example that Dan Baldwin brought up, an OE cammed flat top L-28 with an N-47 head having to back off the timing by 8 degrees is the norm that we see. In practice, (but not according to the dynamic compression theory any how), A bigger cam tends to help, especially at the lower RPMs where cylinder pressures are less, i.e. less dynamic compression. The only explanation I can conjure is theoretical at this time, and that theory is the natural EGR that takes place with a more aggressive cam profile does help to cool the combustion temps so that pump gas wont ignite prior to the “desired” ignition event…. Also, during the valve overlap event, a larger cam profile allows more “cool” intake charge to flow through the chamber which would help to remove excess combustion temps. Again, this is just a theory at this time and I’m sure that this theory has been busted and there is more logical explanation out there. FWIW, the typical street engine is only 75-85% volumetric efficient. I.e. it only produces 75-85% the amount of torque that its actual displacement would allow if the cylinders were to fill 100%. NASCAR engine builders have been able to extract over 110% VE, (Volumetric Efficiency), without the aid of super chargers, Turbos, or Nitrous through strategic valve timing, intake design, and exhaust tuning, etc. They are achieving essentially un-natural super charging taking advantage of the Helmholtz principle. (This would be a post that I honestly don’t have time to write up this month… ) Ok, I’ll stop there. Sorry for going so far off topic with this thread.

Ah bummer. Sorry you couldn’t get EDIS to work right. We were able to get EDIS-6 to function on our N/A L-28 with MSnS-E and we LOVE it thus far. Good luck with your new ignition …

Moby, What is the best method to disable the O2? TIA,

This thread covers how to set up your valve train with an aftermarket cam, including how to determine correct lash pad thickness… Custom Cylinder head building.. What’s involved… http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=108398 Then, don’t forget this thread as well… Using a degree wheel to degree in your L-series cam… http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=111523 Here are some pics from that thread… Hope that helps… Paul