Pop N Wood
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Posts posted by Pop N Wood
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Dang Dave, Nice Work!!
I have a new bookmark of subframe connector how-to pics.
We ought to make that one a sticky in the chassis forum.
denny411 did a recent posting on his connectors, which from his description sounds like he built them inside the stock connectors (I had a little trouble following his description, pictures would help)
http://www.hybridz.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=21627&highlight=
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Man, that 260 is the perfect V8 candidate. A good, clean, straight body with current engine problems. You even have one of the early ones with the nice bumpers.
It is hard to imagine the 260's ever achieving a lot of collector appeal. At least not as much as the early 240's. You could put a few grand into restoring the engine and drive train to new stock condition and still not get your money back from the investment. Besides, if you leave your Z stock you will be missing out on half the fun of owning one, they are excellent hot rod platforms with a ton of aftermarket parts available. Even the "purist" at zcar.com fill their forums talking about non-Nissan upgrades. Last time I check Nissan never offered the option of Illumina struts and triple Webers, and who has ever won an autocross with stock 4.5 inch wide steel rims and P175 tires?
Your buddies may talk all high and mighty now, but if you do the swap right one ride should convince them the V8 belongs.
BTW, a few others may chime in but the autos are fine. Some guys think they make for a better drag racing platform.
Now the Morgan, I wouldn't do anything to that but wash it and drive it.
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zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz... oh is it done yet?
Mark
LOL. I wondered if I was going to overdo it. But then again, your browser has a back button.
Just thinking out loud.
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A company called Jacobs Electronics use to make an antitheft box that required you to toggle a switch inside the car within 30 seconds or so of starting the engine. (Something like turning the rear defroster on and off?) If the switch wasn't toggled, it would run the engine for 30 seconds, then start cutting the ignition in and out before killing it altogether. The device even had the option of being connected to the door switch. That way if the door was opened with the engine running, the timer would kick in and kill the engine if the switch was not toggled. Perfect car jacking protection. Just give the guy your car then run like hell for a phone, because he ain't getting very far with it.
The good thing about this set up is it let the thief start driving the car before it cut out on him in a way that looked like an engine problem and not an anti theft device. If the engine stalls in the middle of an intersection, most thiefs will just abandon it rather than troubleshoot an ignition problem. The other advantage is attempting to steal a car is only breaking and entering up to the point the car starts to move. Once it moves, then it becomes felony car theft.
I got on the Jacobs electronics web site, but they don't seem to offer the anti theft device anymore.
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Power = Torque * (some constant). If you say you need HP, then that's the same as saying you need torque.
Beg to differ. The (some constant) you write above is not a constant, but RPM. You can always generate more rear wheel torque by gearing the engine down, but only if you have sufficient HORSEPOWER.
I did the math. Starting with F= MA you can compute the available acceleration from the engine torque as follows
Acceleration = [Engine Torque] * [Gear Ratio] / [Mass of Car * Tire Radius]
The gear ratio must include the tranny and rear end ratio. Since the weight of the car and tire radius are more or less constant, this equation says that for any given gear, the car's ability to accelerate will follow the engine torque curve. Thus the maximum acceleration in any given gear will be felt when the engine is spinning at the RPM corresponding to the torque peak. This is the argument everyone takes when claiming "torque rules" and torque is the only thing a driver "feels"
Unfortunately they don't take the analysis far enough. The gear ratio is simply the ratio of the engine RPM to the wheel RPM. Thus the equation can be written as
Acceleration = [Engine Torque] * [Engine RPM / Wheel RPM] / [Mass of Car * Tire Radius ]
But notice that [Engine Torque] * [Engine RPM] = Horsepower.
Also note that [Tire Radius * Wheel RPM] = vehicle speed, so the equation for acceleration can be written as
Acceleration = [Engine HP] / [Mass of Car * Vehicle Speed]
This equation says that at any given speed, the maximum acceleration that can be achieved is directly proportional to the available engine HP. Thus it is POWER that determines how quickly a car can accelerate, not engine torque.
The equation also says that to achieve the maximum possible level of acceleration in the 1/4 mile, you need to gear the car to always keep the engine spinning a the HP peak, NOT torque peak. Since hybrid-electric vehicles and continuously variable transmission have other problems, that means you have to approximate the final equation with a finite number of gear ratios. Thus if you had complete freedom of choice in setting your gear ratios, you would want to select your gears such that shifting from a point just on the high side of the HP peak will put the engine at an RPM just on the low side of the HP peak. That way you would keep the engine near max HP all the way down the track. Obviously the wider and flatter the horespower curve is, the less gears you need and the wider the spread of gear ratios you can tolerate. Conversely, if you do like most people and start with a JY transmission with a fixed set of gear ratios, then you had better build an engine with a broad enough HP curve to cover the spread.
The one other point I would like to make is the statement that for any given gear the maximum acceleration (i.e. max torque to the rear wheels) will be felt when the engine is spinning at the torque peak. The links Grumpy posted above interpreted this as meaning you want to drive around in the gear that keeps you near the engine torque peak, that this is where you will feel the maximum kick in the pants. This is incorrect. Lets say you are cruising with the engine revs right at the torque peak and floor it. If you were to downshift to a lower gear such that the engine revs up to near the HP peak and then floor it, you will register an even higher reading on the butt-o-meter.
No question. For maximum acceleration maximize horsepower, because the more HP you have the more rear wheel torque you can generate through the appropriate gearing.
Now getting back to what you are saying about building a car that is pleasant to drive. I am with you completely on this. I don't want 27 gears (I don't even want 6) and I don't want to go over 3000 RPM unless I feel like scaring my kids. That is why I will follow Grumpy's advice to me many posts ago. I am dreaming of eventually building a 350 with 400 - 425 HP peak HP. This should give me more car than I will ever be able to handle, yet allow me to pass 80% of the cars on the road without taking it out of overdrive.
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Damn. The price of 94-95 LT1 engines just went up. I don't know where you would install cats on a 240. Also what happens if you install a crate engine? They don't come with any smog equipment?
Now technically a 95 Camaro LT1 was OBDII compliant even though it didn't need to be. Does that mean it requires cats?
cyrus, You aren't really going to sell your car, are you? Just drive it and worry about selling it in the remote chance you ever get stopped by a renegade cop.
One last thing. Seems like once you get a V8 in your car certified, then you are free to install any engine. The typical street cop is sharp enough to know the car has a non-stock engine, but does the certificate give enough detail to tell him the current engine is not the same one it was certified with?
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Ever see A Clockwork Orange?
Ahh, a little bit of the in and out. Horrorshow!
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I just noticed on that last link where the guy put the subframe connector inside the car rather than underneath, that the connector looks like it would interfere with the heel of your foot when trying to hit the brake.
I would think long and hard about that one.
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Grump, you da man. But that first link contradicts itself.
The link first says:
Torque is the only thing that a driver feels, and horsepower is just sort of an esoteric measurement in that context. ... horsepower has nothing to do with what a driver *feels*.But then goes on to say
Because (to quote a friend), "It is better to make torque at high rpm than at low rpm, because you can take advantage of *gearing*.That last statement is the definition of horsepower! This guy is making the same mistake. He needs to start thinking about torque "at the rear wheels". His own water wheel example points out the fallacy of his own conclusions.
Horsepower is a very real entity. Dynos compute HP indirectly from torque only because that is the most convenient way of doing so. Everyone talks about the "5252" number as though it were some magic constant pulled out of the air. It is simply a unit conversion from torque in ft-lbs to power expressed in HP. Give the power rating in kilowatts (as our Aussie friends do) and the 5252 becomes something else.
The second link starts to go through Newton's equation and relates torque to acceleration. This guy even correctly makes the statement:
the only thing that changes a car's acceleration is the torque at the wheels, which is the result of torque from the engineBut what he doesn't do is convert the equation relating force and torque at the rear wheels to engine torque. He needs to change that last statement to read:
the only thing that changes a car's acceleration is the torque at the wheels, which is the result of torque from the engine MULTIPLIED BY THE GEARING RATIOI stand by my earlier statement. Whoever has the most horsepower between the shift points wins.
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Can't believe no one posted the HybridZ definitive link on subframe connectors:
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Hooker makes a muffler with dual 2 1/2 inlets and a single 3" outlet. I can't find the part number right now but it was part of their Aerochamber line. It looks like it would fit in the stock location, but allow 2 1/2 inch pipe all the way back.
BTW, what do "moroso spiralflows " do? Are they a type of resonator? What is the advantage?
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get a "Historic Vehicle" license plate
Unfortunately that won't work either. In Maryland, a conditon for historic plates is that the car hasn't been "significantly modified from stock".
I will probably not certify the swap in my 1970 Z either, but just thought the guy would like to know what the rules are before he gets started.
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I looked into this quite a bit because I have a 96 LT1, and my conclusion was that it was impossible to do a smog legal swap because:
- You are NOT required use cats on a chassis that didn't come with them because it is too dangerous.
- Without cats the after-cat O2 sensors will cause the PCM to throw a code.
- There is no legal way to eliminate the codes.
I know you can reprogram the PCM or use O2 simulators, BUT both of these things are not legal.
Couldn't you just install a second set of O2 sensors? Would be stupid, but within the letter of the law?
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You need to be careful when dealing with government clerks. They like to feel in charge, so they are going to give you an answer no matter what. It is a rare clerk that will actually check on anything.
OBDII cars would exclude ALL engines made since 1996, not just LS1's.
My suggestion would be to call the bone head back and tell him you want to get a car inspected. When they give you the address of the referee station, then go there and ask they guy who will actually award the certificate what HE is going to look for. When you find out he was wrong, call back and ask to speak to his supervisor.
BTW, the "smog exempt" rule only means your car is exempt from annual inspections. Technically even "smog exempt" cars are suppose to meet all smog requirements.
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Open any high school physics book. Power is a measure of the ability to do work. Thus it is POWER that determines how fast a car can accelerate.
You guys want to talk torque, but you are measuring it at the wrong place. It is the torque applied to the rear wheels that determines the force in the F = MA equation. What ever torque the engines does or does not produce is meaningless if the car is geared wrong. You can't talk about the engine and transmission/rear end separately...they are both essential ingredients and must be matched to each other.
Simply put, the more horsepower you have, the more torque you can put to the rear wheels. This is a simple fact.
Taken one step further: Whoever has the most horsepower between the shift points wins.
Indy car teams know this. That is why they change the transmission ratios depending upon what track they are racing at. In fact, I have heard them talk about setting the ratios based on their speeds coming out of a specific corner at a specific track.
One advantage of a torquey motor is you don't have to be as precise with the gearing. A 2 speed power glide means you are going to have a huge change in RPM between shifts. In this case you had better have a broad torque curve to match OR your HP will drop too much after the shift.
Similarly, if your engine only makes power from 7000 to 8000 RPM, then you had better have enough gears to always stay in that band.
In some ways a street engine/tranny combo is a more demanding problem than a pure race engine. The street set up has to satisfy a wide range of mundane driving conditions without compromising too much flat out performance. In this sense the broad torque curve (read HP curve) of a V8 rules.
The one other thing to consider when deciding on a street engine is the availability of transmissions. Very few of us can afford to tailor a transmission to a specific engine/chassis set up. Thus we are limited in our transmission choices to what ever we can find in a JY. Since most of these trannys were designed for a street car, that means they are generally going to favor a wide torque curve.
Grumpyvette has talked about this in the past. Z's are so lite that they can't really make use of a lot of low end torque without smoking the tires. Thus a V8Z can afford to trade some low end torque for high end HP. In fact, Grumpy advocates a 383 stroker with a big cam and intake. This way you get a LOT of high end HP with the stroker helping to maintain an adequate low end.
Part of the problem with the whole torque vs. HP argument is all of the car magazines are always screaming "torque torque torque..". Mags like Hot Rod and Car Craft are geared toward guys with 3600#, street driven American muscle cars. In this case they are right. Big heavy cars need torque to be streetable. But a Z is a different application. A V8Z needs to read between the lines and move the torque curve up in RPM....to gain more HP!
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I know the JTR manual claims they removed something like 23 pounds of wiring and sensors when they ditched the FI. Also the 2.8L block may have bigger holes, but it was cast in such a way to allow bigger holes in the first place. For example a 283 SBC is a completely different casting than a 350 or 400.
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I have seen one write up on a big block Z and I've only heard rumors about others. The one with the write up was very extensive. The guy had cut the car in two at the fire wall, completely removed the firewall, and was in the process of welding in about a 6 inch extention to lengthen the car. Sad thing was as far as I know the guy never finished the car.
There is a member on this site, Darius, who is a bit of a legend with his blown SBC Z. He said he could scare his passengers because the car would lite up the tires at 70+ MPH and start walking side to side as the tires spun.
I guess a BB would do better, but to take the HP and torque beyond Darius's Z , it would probably be best to build a full frame with a 9 inch ford rear end and just kind of tack a Z body on top. At that point you would have to ask yourself why you didn't start with a 69 Camaro in the first place. Or better yet, a Cobra kit car.
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I guess I liked the way they brought the cage through the firewall and into the engine compartment. I also like how inconspicuous it would be for a street machine (and the overall quality of work). I found it curious that they didn't tie into the strut towers, either front or rear. It is almost like they only wanted to stiffen the frame rails and nothing more.
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Hope I am wrong, but I don't think you will get many replies to this one. BBC Z's are few and far between.
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I never said it couldn't be done' date=' I just said I had not seen or heard of one before. I have no doubt that a V8 Z can be built as light as an L6 Z and can be made to handle as well. I just have not seen anyone do it yet.
Remember, I'm a racer. Prove it to me on a racetrack. Someone, somewhere build a road racing V8 Z. I know it can be built fast and I know it can be built to handle great. But, right now, its a mythical creature that most any 200 hp, 175 ft lb, 2,430 lb (with driver) ITS 240Z can beat.
How many times do I have to pickup and throw down this gauntlet...? 8)[/quote']
Here, fishy fishy fishy!
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If it wasn't too much trouble it would be great to take a vette home for a night
Man, you are giving me ideas. Something tells me a dealer who doesn't know you personally would be REAL reluctant to hand out $50,000 vettes for all night joy rides. I know I'd be do more than "sleep on it".
Minivans maybe. But an LS6 vette?
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You cant let any assembled brake product sit without use dude.
OK now you guys have me nervous. My Z is sitting on blocks, with no plates, and a complete set of 4 wheel disk parts sitting in boxes next to it. Since the car won't be road worthy for another year or two (or three), what would you recommend I do with my JY calipers? They are full of clean fluid with the inlet tubes crimped tight, sealed in zip lock bags and stored in a dry place?
Suggestions? Would it be better to put them on, even though the car will still sit?
BTW, don't dis jeromio. It was through his web site that I was first introduced to the maniacs that frequent this site. I have read enough posts by both of you guys to know you both have valid things to say.
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I know MSA sells rebuild kits. Don't know how good they are or if you can get better.
The BIG problem with rebuilding old SU's is they tend to wear out the throttle shaft bushings causing vacuum leaks. In fact, the carb bushings will wear out long before the engine rings will!!
If the carbs are original, I would plan on having a shop replace the bushings. Two problems with this, first you need to find an experienced shop and second it ain't gonna be cheap.
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From reading Ron's write up, I think the weight of his car is more the norm than the exception. Other than the fuel cell, he really hasn't done much to concentrate on weight savings. The aluminum drive shaft he credits with reducing drive line vibration. His brakes are JY type swap items, not Willwood superlights. Of course the LT1 has alumum heads and intake, but that massive T56 more than makes up for that weight savings. Run an LT1 with an automatic, or better yet a Ford/T5 or LS1 engine and the car's weight will be less yet.
BTW, when I use to drive my dead stock 240 to the recycle center, I seem to remember weights more on the high side of 2300#. Maybe you cut more weight from your car than you think?
Is it a 383 stroker?
in Gen I & II Chevy V8 Tech Board
Posted
Fill the cylinder with Marvel Mystery oil and measure the displacement.