Jesse OBrien
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Posts posted by Jesse OBrien
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I finally got both bumper skirts/covers off, along with one of the side skirts. The driver's side skirt is being somewhat problematic, so my drill is charging and my stepper bit is waiting for action.Something was living in one of the rocker panels, and had nested in there. That nest absorbed some water, and ... you know where this is going.
I found another small patch that'll need to be cut and welded in under the front wheelwell also:In more positive news, my first look under the car was really encouraging. The frame rails are reinforced and extended to the back of the car. It looks like all they need is paint and underbody coating, and I'm in business.It's nowhere near as bad as I had expected, and replacement panels are available, inexpensive, and straightforward to weld in. I'll visit Bad Dog soon to pick up a pile of little things I need. Most of the other rust is just going to take some wire wheeling and a fresh coat of paint, but I'm sure there are a couple other spots I'll have to patch. I certainly didn't expect perfection out of a near-40-year-old car for $1k.I temporarily repaired the passenger window (it's up, but only two of four tracks are attached, so it doesn't move from 'up'), and found that the ratcheting latch mechanism on the driver's door is broken. It's kind of a pain to remove, but I'm going to pull it this weekend and see if it's salvageable or if I need to order a replacement.I haven't tried starting it yet (I'm slightly nervous to, if I'm honest) and haven't tried the brakes yet. I'll bleed them this weekend, hopefully prime the fuel pump, and possibly start it up.After that, I think the tail lights are going to have to go back to stock. Corvettes can get away with Corvette lights, I don't find them pleasing on an s30.
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I wouldn't take that project on if he paid me. Even if you ever 'finish' it, it'll never be right again. You would be better off picking up some sheet metal, body tools, and the body measurements section of the FSM than buying that. In California, there's always a running s30 for a grand within 4 hours' drive. Instead of trying to get this one cheaper, consider buying a plane ticket for a better example instead.
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BW 5 speed, if you could verify; condition, miles, etc. could bring in the 350-400 range. Without all that, $150-200?
see http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/115530-nh-280zx-t-t5-and-driveshaft-400/
verified 55k miles on the 82 zx-t donor. Haven't cracked it open, but it looks/rotates as a 'used but serviceable' transmission. The car had been last registered in 2010.
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The body kit is sold to a fellow hybridz'er that I'm hoping to meet up with this weekend. All that's left to do to get ready for him is jack up the rear end so I can drill out the rusted sheet metal screws in the wheelwells. I half-repaired the passenger's window today so it would stay up and keep rain/snow out.
I mocked up the air dam, but it really doesn't look like it's going to fit without some modifications:
By the feel of things, I'll have to remove the tab that sticks out from the front of the lower radiator support and move the horns out of the way, then I can secure it and start drilling some mounting holes.
Hopefully I can get the passenger's door lock off so I can have a key cut, I couldn't find the code in the glovebox, and the ignition tumbler isn't bad enough that I can turn it with any key.
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Let me get the driver's door lined up, it won't even close on the new 280z. Then we'll get back to making/installing worn parts.
No problem, I'll print up another set, I've got black ABS plastic now too, so it'll be less obvious than the white. You'll have to send me your address again. I keep looking for the article about the fabrications, so I can see what your TIG girl can come up with. Though, I'm not sure that the 280Z uses the same latch setup if I remember correctly. I can look at my 280Z tonight and clarify that. These are also uploaded to Shapeways so we can have them printed in metal if you want.
I've had too many projects up in the air, so I haven't had a chance to wrap up the fabrication series yet. Right now, there are 5 articles remaining. The goal is to have them finished for the new year, and wrap up the entire series then.
Update time!The money shot:I used an array of high-precision rust-identification tools (screwdrivers) to identify any potential rust problems, and this was all I found:I'll call that a win, and an easy fix.There's a nice MSA (I think) downpipe that could use some header paint, and an o2 sensor!The most damaged of the wheels. These things weigh NOTHING, and they're currently fitted with 195/75-14 tires. Haven't checked their width yet, but the lack of heft has me a bit excited to use these for race wheels.I couldn't find the l28et afm, but I found a stock l28 one (I think?)I really hope this is an l28et ecu, not an l28e:Correct me if I'm wrong, but BW t5? I think I'll keep the Datsun 4speeds I have, and put this up for sale. What's the going rate these days?I have some major server changes to push out this weekend, so I won't have much time to work on it, but I may hire someone to rewire the l28et for me. Being colorblind and working with wires that have been fading for the past 40 years isn't a good combination, overall. Has anyone put together a minimal l28et wiring diagram with the 'bare essentials' and nothing extra? -
Hey Jesse, Sounds like a good deal for a parts car. Now you know the L28et is lower compression than the NA cars right? So if you are just swapping your carbs over you may have some issue. Though the L28et isn't that hard to get running on the stock electronics assuming it's all there. There's a lot of Turbo swap threads on here so I won't go into that. but another option is always Megasquirt. It's much more modern EFI that's been proven to work really well with these engines.
As for what to look for to resurrect the Parts car, is all the regular rust locations, but also just look for completeness, you don't know what they've taken off the car. So that could be a factor. It sounds like a deal though. Oh Let me know if you need any other parts designed.
The l28et is separate from my two n42's with SU's on them, I would be swapping one of those into this. With the carb'd SU l28 under the hood, I could squeeze into U4 (unprepared 4) class on 14x7 street tires, where the l28et would have me planted firmly in SP2 (street prepared 2). Lower numbers are faster in that class.
It looks like I'm keeping both, the 280z with the l28et is complete with the wiring harness, ECU, and it looks like all the sensors except the AFM. In the long term, megasquirt is a bit of a no-brainer, and if all the electronics work to run the stock EFI I'll stick with that for a season or so, then pull the l28et off for the rebuild I'm sure it'll need and plop it into the 240z instead. I'm not sure I see a reason to go with MS3 over MS2 for the l28et though. If I'm reading the specs correctly MS2 can handle sequential injection just fine. That would be the main selling point for MS3, primarily to get better efficiency out of the engine.
Those door jamb reinforcements are holding up really nicely, despite a bit of unintended abuse. I may ask for another set for the 280z before too long, I'm impressed with how well that nylon has held up.
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It has plenty of rust in the usual places, but no scary rot. The floors look like they were jb welded in, so I'll revisit them before too long. The doglegs were much better than I'd expected (a small patch would be a good idea on the rearmost section of both). They had molded on Corvette (looked like c4) tail lights in, so I'll probably have to spend some time chipping bondo off and putting real headlights back in. I'd call the body an 8/10 for New England.
The l28et is in MUCH better shape than I'd expected. It looked like the BW t5 was in the trunk, with a 4spd mounted up. The motor is totally bone-stock, even has the injector cooling fan on it. The ECU and wiring is all there, and doesn't look molested at all, it just hasn't all been hooked up.
I've worked out a place to store it for a bit, while I get it streetworthy, so I'm going to pick it up later this week. It was too dark to get photos but I'll snap a bunch once I take possession.
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I've bought a number of vehicles in my time, but I'm looking for specific advice here.
Here's what I have:
1. 72 240z
2. n42 l28 with SU carbs (x2)
3. 4speed transmissions (x2)
It needs a radiator, all the hard lines, pedals, rear brakes, seats, and harnesses before it can move itself around. Because of that, I started looking for a parts donor for all the little stuff, to get the ball rolling.
I happened to find a 280z with an l28et in it and a couple manual transmissions attached. It has side skirts and bumper covers, which kind of concern me, and the engine wiring is incomplete. None of that concerns me much, but my previous experience with early Nissan EFI does. I haven't seen a reliable, effective l28et using the stock engine management. Therefore, the plan for this car would be to plop one of my SU-fed l28's in it and put the l28et on a stand as the more serious build for my 240z.
Here's the question of the day:
Aside from the obvious doglegs, frame rails, battery tray, engine rotation, brake line condition, etc ... what dealbreakers should I look for tonight? -
I still have those rear struts with LCA's if those will work. You would need pads, drums, and a hardware kit to finish the brakes though. let me know if you're interested. I'd take $60 for them and they're in my garage in Manchester.
All I need are pads, drums, and hardware, already have two sets of LCA's. Thanks though, buddy.
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That's a terrifying thought. I'm never going to Alabama if it's legal to drive around without brakes.
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I have none, and would like to be able to inspect the car next month. I'm looking to spend as little (time and money) as possible to get brakes that function (hydraulic and ebrake) and aren't completely seized. If you're not in New England, please include shipping to 03103 in your offer price. Thanks guys (and gals).
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I've been talking to some of the more experienced local hillclimbers (many have been doing this for as long as I've been legal to drive) about more standard scca/hpde/autox events and they all suggest starting by killing some pylons instead of trees to start out. They also universally recommend high treadwear tires for the first season, which is advice I took. I picked up some 195-60-14 wheels to pop on my 14x7 wheels for a combination of early season abuse and everyday driving. Once I've grown into them (which could take a couple seasons, if I'm honest with myself), I'd like to have my next step laid out clearly before me. Hopefully those 14" wheels will be mounted up by this weekend and I'll be able to roll the car around and reorganize my garage, at least!
I hate to admit it, but I think I'm more excited about the thought of a tire trailer behind an s30 than I am about the tires themselves.
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I'm trying to do more listening than talking in this thread, but I had to jump in here.
There's already been a lot of discussion on this but I thought I'd chime in with my take. For hillclimb how fast you can get the tire up to operating temp is critical to help minimize run time. Generally you'd want the smaller wheel for less rotating mass, which helps both acceleration and braking. But many times the larger tires may be better developed by a manufacturer and that trumps the lighter weight. You also really want a plan in place so you don't end up buying things more than once, which has a tendency to get really expensive. For both autox and hillclimb you don't need huge brakes so you can run smaller wheels. But that limits your tire choice and many of the better tires that heat up quickly are in larger wheel sizes.
JohnC mentioned the advantage of AWD for hillclimbs. What I've found is that it's better at launch and then only if you have traction limited areas on the course. 2WD is often faster if the launch can be close because you have less weight running up the hill. In the PNW our hills are often very steep with sharp corners and you'd think AWD would be king but there are many fast record holding cars that are only 2WD. George Bowland came out a few years ago and decimated the records at most of the hills with his snowmobile powered AM car. But those records are getting close to being taken down buy a 2WD Locost running LS power.
For what it's worth my Z (Braaps old car) is setup to run 13 inch diameter wheels and 10.5 inch brakes. I prefer less rotating mass and the smaller mass of the tires help them to heat up faster. Good luck and be safe. Hillclimbs are some of the most fun you can have but they have a high level of risk you need to manage.
Hope this helps,
Cary
Based on the one hillclimb event I've attended in person, I've noticed that corners are heavily cambered here. The hills are reasonably steep but the corners allow a lot of momentum to be carried through them. Even stock Miatas with sticky tires and aggressive drivers can put down impressive times. All the experienced drivers I've talked to recommend starting on street tires for slow, forgiving handling. Despite the added cost associated with changing wheels in another season or two, I think I'm going with some inexpensive 15x8 steel wheels for now with some 'grippy' DOT street tires on them. I still have a lot of research to do for prep, from a good roll bar to basic suspension tuning, then I think I'm going to get a small HF trailer and fab up a tow mount for it so I can haul some tools, spare parts, and wheels out to the events.
I'm looking forward to next season quite a lot, thanks for all the advice so far everyone. It's extremely helpful.
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I too, have read that some 15" wheels will fit. Unfortunately, mine do not. A set of AZC brakes are in the mail to me right now to be installed in November/December. I will be willing to let folks send me any wheel for test fitting. Dave test fit a wheel that I sent him and it took him like six weeks to get to it and two months before I got my wheel back, with me calling him every week to remind him-super nice guy, though. My 15" wheels will require a 1" spacer to fit, which will push the tire out of the wheel well. So, I'm going to have to order $400 worth of new rear wheels with a 1" larger back spacing to keep the tire in the wheel well. I plan to do a write-up. Unfortunately, I haven't found anyone who has catalogued WHICH 15" wheels will fit. I will try to do that based on any wheels folks chose to send me.
That sounds like a great project, 15" wheels are more budget-friendly on both wheels AND tires than 17" (I've had a very hard time finding inexpensive steel race wheels in 17", but there are piles of manufacturers making quality 15" wheels). Your point about Spec Miata (and spec e30, if I remember correctly) tires lends even more value to the inexpensive wheels. While I don't hate the idea of overfenders or spacers, it'd be nice to know what would fit on which brakes without any modifications. It'd also be nice to know which wheels interfere with suspension components.
The PROBLEM I see with 15" wheels is that they're really only common for 205 and 225 widths. Anything wider and 17" is really necessary. Because I'm running a stock l28 on SU's, mostly-stock suspension, and this will be my first season racing, available grip isn't going to be the limiting factor and I don't expect to bump up against the limits of those tires.
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Gotcha, so it turns out I'm as lost as you are. Have you looked in the FSM diagram?
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I'm learning a lot just watching this discussion go back and forth.
Johnc, if EVERYTHING else is optimized: ( dry, clean pavement, sticker new, perfect temperature of the perfect tire compound, perfect inflation, perfect shocks and spring rate, unlimited funds, infinitely stiff chassis, infinite power and torque, perfect alignment for the venue, perfect driving ), is there a down side to trying to achieve the largest contact patch that you can? I know this is a super complex question, so I'm really asking it for the original poster in order to get him to a simple answer to a complicated question.
I was wary to ask this question, because I know exactly how I'd answer it if I were the one with more experience.
All else being equal never is.
... just like that.
So there's no simple answer, no formula that fits every car. Because our runs are ~4minutes (absolute max, that's a stock Daewoo ambling up the longest hill in the area), I think I need to focus on cool-weather temps. For now, I think my question has been answered: On a mostly-stock s30, 15x8 0 offset 225-[proper-gearing-height]-15 is acceptable. I'll have to do my own testing and fine-tuning from there.
Heavy, I'm curious as to why you'd choose 17" over 15" if the widths are the same, and brakes don't demand it. I'm trying to focus on wheel width more than wheel diameter, but what's one more wrench in the equation?
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I have no problems whatsoever with flares, I just want to be sure that wider is actually going to be a handling improvement.
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You need a spindle, and what looks like a differential bracket. While you're in there, it's probably a good time to get an RT diff mount as well. I don't have any for sale, just trying to help you find what you need.
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If you look at the cobbled Audi, he wasn't exactly running 145's. So a wider contact patch helps. But also, that thing doesn't look like it weighs 4000lbs either, so that also helps with acceleration as well. And since it looks to be a tube framed car, I'd imagine he isn't using a stock suspension either; I'd bet its some form of adjustable coilover shock . So as Everyone has said, handling comes down to more than just tires. It is tires yes, but good tires on a 4000lb car with mushy suspension still isn't going to handle all that much better than before.
But tires, I feel the widest and stickiest you can run in your application will give you the best handling. Along with other mods of course; suspension etc.
Right, but he was only running 225's, where the Turner was running something like 355's. Both had well-tuned suspensions for the hill and carried incredible speed through every corner. Both are ~1500lb cars plus fuel/driver. I guess I'm just surprised that AWD can bridge that much of a tire size gap.
Don't know on the offset, but there are a bunch of threads on that subject. You might try the Z transmission calculator for tire diameter and gear selection.
That's my plan as well, I just feel like I should ask for some input from more experienced people before going crazy with the widest tires I can get, and slapping overfenders under them. I want a car that I can drive quickly and effectively, not one that's bored waiting for me to figure out how to wrestle with it.
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This makes no sense. You're comparing a physical suspension component with a calculated abstraction.
I agree, none of this makes any sense. I thought I had a moderate understanding of how things worked 'till these guys started explaining things to me. I may just be taking away the buzzwords from the conversation, and didn't absorb all the context. I feel like I'm starting over in suspension 101 again.
The main reson the Audi was faster up the hill was 4WD. Hill climbs are generally low speed events (like an autocross) and thus reward accelerative traction. Anything you can do to increase grip under acceleration will reduce your times. Spreading grip around four contact patches gives you twice as much area for acceleration in a 4WD vehicle (given the same size tires).
That makes perfect sense, and is what I had always assumed. More mechanical grip means faster times. The Audi driver reported slower times with wider tires, which is what threw a wrench into my brain.
It's kind of funny, my whiteboard in the garage has a 'johnc prep list' on it with starting recommendations straight from you. I think that should be standard reading for anyone who buys an s30 (http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/91330-240z-chassis-prep-reinforcements/?do=findComment&comment=864737). I think we all end up asking that question at some point in our ownership.
If you can fit 15x9s, the 225 extreme summer performance and DOT tires work well on a 9. They're really wide for 225.
You said roll center should somehow relate to the tire. I think you meant scrub radius. There are lots of race cars running a positive scrub radius. The most immediate effect in a Z is that a big scrub radius will make it harder to steer.
AWD is the traction king. Google "traction circles" and you should find some stuff about how much traction each tire has at any given point. Suffice it to say that in a high hp 2wd car the undriven wheels are usually not pushing to their max, and that's why AWD has an advantage. That thing really does look cobbled together though... LOL
It's very carefully cobbled together. Scrub radius is what they were explaining to me, but I'm not sure anyone used that term.
I want 0 offset on the 15x9's correct? I'm really just looking for a solid starting point, it doesn't need to be the end-all best possible wheel. I've ogled Braap's old yellow z with its massively wide tires many, many times and would love to be able to justify running wide tires like that. I'm trying not to put the cart before the horse though.
The answer to your question is probably more complex than you expect. Correctly sizing wheels/tires factors in a car's entire performance window, and you really need tire data to pick the right one. Good luck getting that from the manufacturers, unless you know somebody! You need to plan out maximum acceleration numbers for take-off, braking, changing direction, etc. and try to match up a tire to that without wasting material (e.g. too wide of a tire for your needs will increase unsprung weight and rotational inertia).
Tire size also affects gearing, so I'd start by choosing a diameter to work with that matches the gearing you'd like...
Ditto JC on the RC comment.
I have a lot of math to do, but for right now I'm just looking for a starting point. I'm trying to balance this to be street driveable as well, since I don't have a truck-trailer to haul it on. The main problem is that I don't know what the car's performance window actually is. I don't have dyno results for the engine, haven't changed any suspension components (yet, since I don't know exactly what the car needs yet). The only real determination I could make is gearing, and even with that, I'd like to swap up to an LSD (STI, perhaps) which will change my gearing again. For now, a starting point is all I need.
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I'm certain this has been addressed before, and I did a lot of searching (on several forums) but have come up short. This past weekend, I attended a hillclimb race event and made a few observations that made me rethink wheel choices. I had always assumed the widest wheel possible would offer the most mechanical grip and amount to the best 'momentum' car possible. I saw a few Turner cars ripping up the track with plenty of power and plenty of mechanical grip, along with well-sorted suspension. They were unquestionably fast:
However, a cobbled-together awd twin-turbo Audi broke the track record. It was unquestionably fast as well.
The thing that got me thinking and questioning what I "knew" is that the Audi is running significantly less tire, weighs roughly the same, and can put down roughly the same amount of power. Both cars had excellent pilots. However, the car with narrower tires was putting down better times, going against everything I had previously believed. I asked the drivers about it afterward, and I got a brief primer on roll centers, kingpin angles, and terrifying steering vs smooth steering characteristics. I had always assumed that the hub should be lined up with the centerline of the wheel, but apparently I had it all wrong and the roll center should be lined up with the centerline of the wheel.
I'm working my way through some of the experienced racers' advice on here, and am not quite ready to invest in wheels/tires, but I'd like to get some research done ahead of time for this. I have to assume that there's a wheel/tire combo that's a good 'starting point' for the s30. Right now, I suppose I'm looking for 15x8 wheels since they have a reasonable selection of sticky DOT tires, but I wanted to see if I could get some reading material from you fine folks before I spend money and potentially ruin the car's handling capabilities.
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Just received this last night:
I'm really sick of trying to find pedals that fit. At this point, I'm ready to bite some bullets and just get the damn thing put together, so I'll order this over the weekend:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/wil-340-12410
I started adding some tack welds to the major chassis seams, and after it's running/driving, I think I'm going to make some tubular subframe connectors (or I might just go with BD parts ones).
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After this weekend's event, I don't really see any alternative to adding a roll cage. If I'm going to drive this thing in a hillclimb event, I'm going balls to the wall with safety. It's something I'd rather go overboard with than not, and it looks like I have all winter to get it sorted. Without getting into too many specifics, getting to see the 40-or-so cars thrashing the crap out of such a beautiful mountain road has me completely sold on this event. I won't get into too many of the boring details, but I took a few (hundred) photos and a bunch of video that I'm still sorting through:
Amazing home-built machine (lots of time on an English Wheel) running surprisingly fast times on bias ply tires. Runs sub-10psi pressure through a front-mounted supercharger off of an earth mover.
(this one isn't my photo)
Twin turbo Audi that made me rethink squeezing the widest wheels possible on the Z, and instead focusing on balance and roll centers (he broke a couple of records this weekend)
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I believe the lever goes to the passenger-side vent. You should have a pull-cable similar to a hood popper on the passenger's side. It's pretty bare-bones, but you can see it here:
Key Code
in S30 Series - 240z, 260z, 280z
Posted
Re-caught this thread again, I'm resurrecting it for a reason. I pulled the passenger door tumbler, and was baffled at the lock of a code. I figured I was looking at the wrong part of the car, so I kept pulling parts out. Eventually, I realized it's on the side of the housing of the tumbler, under a couple layers of oxidization. For future reference, it can be found here (a photo would have saved me a couple hours):