Tennesseejed

My NA to turbo project requires some driveline upgrades. Currenty using a stock 225mm flywheel mated to '83 5 speed and OE clutch. As is, the (new) OE clutch already slips if I drop the pedal above 4000rpms so its gotta go. (Only did that once trying for a hard launch at an autox and had to let off in order for the clutch to finally engage). Looking for opinions and advice on going to a lightweight 240mm flywheel and Stage 3 (350+ ft/lbs) clutch. I was prepared to go Fidanza for the flywheel, but searching revealed issues with bolt holes needing to be fully tapped and width v. stock flywheel issues which may require a different throwout collar. None of that is insurmountable, but I'd really like to only drop the transmission once. I would also like to deal with a HybridZ vendor if someone deals with driveline products. I checked Betamotorsports and the Vendor forum and didn't find anyone. Vendor PMs welcome. I know from the 5 speed swap that the throwout collar matches the flywheel. I'm using a 4 speed collar ('75 280 flywheel) and probably still have the 5 speed collar somewhere. Has anyone had good, or bad, experiences with flywheel/clutch products or installation? Products I've looked at include SPEC, ACT, F1, Exdedy and Fidanza among others. I'll be plenty satified with 300-350 whp, so is a Stage 2 clutch enough? Car is a Summer driver with autox and, hopefully, some wheel to wheel racing down the road. My current philosophy is to drive the piss out of the car in autox and then sell it when I get bored. I.e., not a show car, not my "baby", etc. Anyone who has been down this path and is willing to mentor the 'new guy' a little is greatly appreciated.

Some folks have trouble properly wiring the ignition relay(s) to power MS. Serial comms between MS and the laptop can be finicky. I had good luck the first time around. Other people end up buying several different serial cables before they get comms.

Letitsnow, I think you're going to have to help me understand what your are doing in your MatchBot posts. Your two MatchBot links are in posts #6 and #12. Is post #6 your own car? Is post #12 your calcs on the dyno graph I linked? It's probably obvious to others, so forgive my ignorance, but what do your links show?

Good point about crank HP v. at the wheels. Looks like an appoximate VE of ~91 (Match Bot Workup) I also edited my previous post to reflect 264 as the max torque value that I used.

I don't know that it is better, but I wired my injectors as 1, 5, 3 and 6, 2, 4 based on the same reasoning that your are talking about.

So if I am following you guys . . . This guy's chart (Dyno Chart) shows 11.5psi (I averaged 11 & 12), peak torque of 264 at 4600, HP @ 4600 of 230ish, and AFRs of 11.6. I put this into Match Bot - only the fourth rpm value - and came up with a VE of ~76. Match Bot Workup Am I on the right track? P.s. Work has been a boitch. Sorry about letting this thread languish. I really am interested in getting some concrete VE numbers.

Very cool. Too busy to play with Match Bot more tonight unfortunately.

I'm virtually positive that I'll go with the 6258. Unfortunately, the 6258 .64 a/r has a T25 inlet and the 6258 .92 a/r uses the T4. The smallest T3 housing in the BG EFR line is the 7064 which is WAY beyond what my needs are. I suppose an adapter can easily be had, but I'd really prefer to have a T3 housing. And because I live in Alaska, this project will have to wait until April/May. Until then, lots of time to buy parts, plan, and engage in mental masturbation. The EFR quick reference guide puts most of the useful information in one handy location (Linky)

Well, my brain is getting all tangled up with this. Now knowing that peak torque and peak VE occur in the same area of the curve, I just spent about an hour trying to calculate actual VE by looking at various dyno graphs where the poster also list their boost levels. I don't think it can be done without having actual air flow measurements because the two variables - VE and air flow - are dependent on one another. And my head hurts too.

Does anyone have actual volumetric efficiency data on a turbo/L6 that they are willing to share? I have finally seen the light and am coming over to the dark side . . . Er, I've decided to convert my NA N42/N42 into a high compression, low boost, turbo engine. I am very interested in the new Borg Warner EFR series turbos. HybridZ Thread Retail Product Information Borg Warner also offers a really neat turbo calculator found here: Match Bot Video tutorials for the Match Bot program are found on the bottom of the page. And you can "save" your work if you copy, paste, and save the link on the top of the page to Word or Notepage. For example, here is my current Match Bot work up (still in progress): My Match Bot In addition to having Corky Bell's bible on my bookshelf, and spending a lot of time researching turbo theory here and elsewhere on the interwebs, I found this guy's workup to be particularly helpful: Linked in Turbo FAQ Section What I have determined, hence the question above, is that volumetic efficiency is a very significant variable in turbo application calculations. For example, the guy's workup for the L28ET (last link) assumes a constant VE of 80% for all rpms. Match Bot, on the other hand, uses pre-filled (but adjustable) VEs ranging between 85% at low rpm to 105% at high rpms. If you assume a VE of 80%, at 6500rpm, your air requirements for 16psi are approximately 36.5 lbs/min (See, L28ET workup). If you assume a VE of 105%, your air requirements are approximately 49.5 lbs/min (Match Bot calculation). When plotting data on turbo flow characteristic graphs, the difference between 36.5 and 49.5 (lbs/min) is the differnce between selecting a small turbo or the next bigger one. For the Borg Warner line, this is the difference between the 6255 and 6258. I know that no two engines are going to perform identically in the real world. And that modifications to the intake manifold, head work, valve size, and exhaust type (among other variables) are all going to effect the ability of the engine to breathe under operation (VE). I don't think assuming a constant VE of 80% (L28ET writeup) is correct. I think the common wisdom that a VE of 80%-85% is reasonably accurate applies only to a naturally aspirated L6 engine. While my knowlege of turbo theory is still relatively weak, I think putting 15 or 16psi into your intake system may well put your actual VE at, or over, 100%. As noted, whether this is correct, plays a large part in turbo selection. My understanding is that VE can be calculated during dyno runs using a MAF sensor. Among the many and very knowledgeable residents here on HybridZ, would anyone be willing to share actual VE data for low (10-15psi) turbo engines so that I can more accurately understand what VE values to use in calculating my turbo airflow requirements?

Dan, that gets two very big thumbs up from me. Are you going to sequential with MS3X or using EDIS?

Here's my fuel only tune for a N42/N42 build: MS2E (2.1.0 code) 270/280/460 cam 10:1 compression Nissan turbo injectors (~290cc) MSD6A coil fired. GM IAT and CLT LC-1 http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?lk0lr4kg8oe2m83 Solid tune. Good enough that I'm no longer fiddling with it. Has not been dynoed.

Doesn't upgrading your Megasquirt firmware update the codes? http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/upgrade.html I'm currently adding my .msq to the map sharing thread. Sending you a PM too.

You're not finding anything in the map sharing thread that is close enough to your specs to get started? I'd be happy to help, but only have NA tunes.

After many tedious hours installing Megaquirt with a meticulously rebuilt head, turning the key, and the car failing to start. Then having to walk away for fear of throwing/beating/breaking things as 15 seconds turns into 15 minutes and the battery is drained. Long, long desperate moments double and triple checking a gazillion wire connections with frequent trips to the laptop to review an already (virtually) memorized Megamanual. A beer to lessen the risk of immediate myocardial infarction. To the garage to obtain and connect the battery charger/auto start for another 15 minutes of fruitless cranking. Desperation. Denial. Onset depression. Three years of seaching and reading and on HybridZ for naught. $1000+ and countless hours down the drain. Back to the recliner for some deep breaths and another beer. How could this be? Why does this not work? What did I do wrong? How did I get here? O.k., back to the basics. Trouble shooting is sometimes like losing your keys. The first thing you do is remember where you last put them. What was the last thing I did on the car? Thinking . . . thinking . . . thinking . . . The distributor! I was manually adjusting the timing, checking the VR sensor gap, and hooking up the plug wires. I'll start there!!! Triple check the plug wires are correct. They are. Loosen the distributor and try starting after advancing and retarding the timing to several different locations. Nothing. Stare silently into the engine bay looking for anything out of the ordinary. The wires, vaccuum lines, the coil, alternator belt, the sensor connectors . . . look at the bug trying to crawl up the firewall . . . consider buying a fifth of scotch just to make it to sunrise . . . . . . Hmmmm, what's that sitting next to the radiator cap? That doesn't look right. Oh yeah. That's the rotor. Probably would work better if that was inside the distributor. *facepalm*

My car would be inclined to disagree with you. As you know, the MSD6 box tach out is a 12V square wave. According to the Megasquirt diagrams I've looked at, you would run the MSD tach out to Pin 24. I recall trying this without sucess. Megamanual diagrams show Pin 24 accepting VR, coil negative and hall sensor. Hall Sensors are a square wave output so it should work. Perhaps you can slay this little gremlin and teach us all something. Or another member who runs this set up sucessfully could chime in. Good luck.

DCZ, sorry for taking a week to get back to this thread. First off, Moby, Cramer and Dexter know what they are talking about. Moby, in particular, is (IMO) a Z car Megasquirt guru here on HybridZ. I mostly want to chime in because I spent a lot of time trying to tweak idle by tuning VE tables and became frustrated with the lack of measurable results. With respect to your questions, I don't have many answers: 1. The Megamanual does not elaborate much (or at all) on the "more engine constants" selections. My opinion on "incorporate AFRTarget" above is mostly based on the fact that it is not greyed out when secondary fuel load is disabled. Rhetocially speaking, what purpose does a VE table serve if it is not tied to an AFR table? 2. As I read the Megamanual, EGO control is turned on as soon as anything other than "disabled" is selected under "EGO Sensor type." In your .msq, you have selected 'single wide band,' so you should be having EGO correction during operation. 3. I really don't know what the secondary fuel tables are for. I think they are for things like water injection/methanol stuff where you are combining two (or more) different fuels. 4. With your car fully warmed up, you can change your EGO Control settings to help trouble shoot your idle issues. Set your authority to 75%, the idle 'active above' to 500 (below idle) and adjust your AFR tables instead of your VE tables to obtain the best idle. Adjusting your AFR tables should noticably effect your idle. Keep in mind, that this won't change your VE tables - unless you have the full version of TunerStudio - but it will at least tell you if your idle can be improved through Megasquirt, or if your idle issues may be not Megasquirt related. Here is my latest AFR table. I'm not in the turbo club, but below one bar, I think you AFRs are rich. After starting out with a very rich table myself, I found leaning things out improved both performance and economy.

Pull up SparkAdv on your data log . . . . goes from 40 deg at 2200rmp to 20 deg at 5200. ? Might be that Megasquirt is not reading spark advance properly, so the reading is meaningless, but curious nonetheless.

Second this. Got 27MPG on a 300 mile roundtrip this Summer.

Hi Seth, Could you be a little more specfic about how you are triggering the ignition. Normally, the MSD box fires the coil and Megasquirt is triggered off of coil negative as Mario assumed above. Are you connecting the MSD coil + and coil - wires to Megasquirt or using the tach out? Or something different? I looked at your Log and you certainly do have some serious rmp spikes going on.

DCZ, After a looking at your .msq, a few things jump out. 1. You disabled "Incorporate AFRTarget" under More Engine Constants. I could be off on this, but even with secondary fuel load disabled, I still believe this should be set to 'include.' 2. EGO control is active above 160F, at 1300 rpm, and with 15% authority. In short, while you can manually adjust your AFR and VE table to tweak your idle quality, you can use your LC-1 to to help you by lowing these value temporarily. 3. Warmup Enrichment goes from 102% at 130F to 90% at 160%. ??? Too much importance is placed on VE tables in Megasquirt tuning. In simplified form, VE tables only represent a fractional value which, when combined with the injector characteristics, result in the desired AFR target. The AFR tables, as well as knowing the correct injector characteristics, are key. VE tables simply bridge the gap between the two. I am not suggesting, as both Mr. Cramer and the Megamanual state, that idle quality cannot be tuned manually by adjusting the VE tables. But you must have both proper injector characteristics and AFR values to begin with, or you will simply be chasing a ghost. If I may suggest a piece of advice . . . purchase the full version of TunerStudio for $59, review your .msg settings, set your wideband to operate at or below idle rpm , and run VE Analayze Live after your engine is at normal operating temperature. If your idle quality remains poor, expirement with your AFR tables to find the best idle. You can spend hours fiddling with VE tables manually by driving and recording data logs and then running VE Analyze in MegaLogViewer. And while this approach does work, save your self a bunch of time by just getting the live version. If running VE Analyze Live and adjusting your AFR tables (not your VE tables) does not get a satisfactory idle, then your idle issue may well not be MegaSquirt related. My .02. And good luck.

Ah yes, I should have recognized that. Alpha-N is something I haven't sucessfully fiddled with. *Bows out and wishes best of luck*

MSQ would help. 60mm TB? I'm warming up to the notion that a 60mm TB is too large for smooth off idle transition on a NA build. What ignition? Edis? MSD? Other?

You can't go wrong with the either of first two suggestions. Let your wallet guide your path. And as a third possibility, consider building the head yourself. Either completely on your own or in part with a good local machine shop. The wealth of information here on HybridZ is almost immeasurable.

This is second hand info, but might be helpful. Turn on Noise Filtering. I know a member on here who had trouble with his fuel only install triggering from coil negative. Apparently, turning on noise filtering did the trick for him.