karay240

Not only because of the 240SX swaps, but also in the Z, 510, and other assorted vehicles, too. I've seen the SR in the miata, rx-7, corolla, 300Z (along w/ other Zs), even the BMW 2002s, and, of course, the 240SX. Kenny http://www.rbmotoring.com

The 3SGTE would be a GREAT motor for the Z. It's far superior to the SR (as long as it's the gen3 or 4 3S). That's what I was planning on using in my future project. However, after careful thought and calculation, I've opted to go w/ the SR. 3SGTE pros: The 3S utilizes a direct acting cams and has the shim under bucket (=capable of higher RPM, if needed ) The 3S makes more torque than the SR (at comparable power levels). The 3S utilizes D-jetro, whereas the SR still uses a MAF. Iron Block vs Alum block 3SGTE cons: COST. . . that's pretty much about it... FWD tranny. . . either an Altezza tranny will bolt on, but is expensive and weak. The 1JZ tranny will fit, but will require a bell housing from Toysport. (The durability of the tranny will be much greater than the SR one though) Wiring. . . unless you're going to go w/ a stand alone, the wiring MAY be a PITA since it's designed for a mid-engine. Intake manifold. . . It goes over the motor, so it may or may not fit w/o using custom, or the Altezza intake manifold. You could bypass all of these problems by using the Altezza front clip, but they are VERY hard to come by, and are VERY VERY expensive. . . which reinforces my point. . . COST I'd Love to see someone do this swap. I think the 3S-GTE is one of the best, if not the best, 4 cylinder that came out of Japan in regards to power potential and durability. I sure would love to do it, but it's just a little too rich for my blood, and I can't justify spending that much when I can get the SR, and keep a lot of the niceties (like power steering, AC etc) Kenny http://www.rbmotoring.com

Wow. . . . . . I'm impressed. All I gotta say is keep up the good work!!! And thanks a bunch for the detailed write up. I think I speak for all of us on the board when I said that I've been looking for someone to do a detailed writeup on their SR20 hybridZ project. Interesting method you used on the mounts, though. . . I think I'm going to be going w/ a more conventional method of custom fabbing a cradle for mine, but your way is probably lighter . I'm interested on how much more vibration you'll feel w/ those mounts. Please post your driving impressions on how the vibrations are w/ your mounts whenever you get the car running. Again, thanks alot for your contribution to this forum, and helping out the out numbered 4 cylnder Z community (we seemed out numbered, anyway. lol). Kenny http://www.rbmotoring.com

About that weight distribution thing. . . I haven't actually weighed a SR powered 240Z, nor have a corner balanced it, but I'm guessing that it'll actually be pretty rear heavy (especially w/ a roll cage). Which leads me to believe that the car will need to be set up more like a mid engine car(like the MR2) for it to handle properly. By this, I mean changing the spring rates accordingly, along w/ more rear biased braking to compensate for throwing off the balance (need for larger vented rear disks). This greater weight bias towards the rear may make this car oversteer more, but IF setup correctly, SHOULD improve lap times considerably (look at the high level of braking performance of rear biased cars like porsche etc.) One thing that would be really nice, though is that you could fortify the front end w/ chromoly piping throughout the engine compartment. The Zs, especially the older ones, have a very weak frame (especially the connection b/w the firewall), and could use major stiffening up front. I'm planning on starting on my SR swap sometime around January (when I get the donor), so I'd like to get some reference on the weight distribution. Can someone who's done this swap post their weight distribution as a reference? I don't think I'm the only one, but I'm sure I'd appreciate it. Realistically, my Z probably will be in the shop for a year or so since customers' cars take priority, but we'll see. Kenny http://www.rbmotoring.com

The's something to say about the exhaust note of an inline six, too. Hey Tony240ZT, I think you missed my point about the parts availability comment. I was only stating how much more convenient it is for the detroit V8 guys to buy performance/replacement parts for their hybrid in comparison to the hybrids w/ JDM only motors.

They actually had everything in stock? That's pretty impressive. That's what were trying to do w/ the RB 26, but there are sooo many variables. For example, the bearings, there are so many different combinations of bearings that, even though they are cheap individually, once you add all of those together, it becomes an astronomical $$$. I know that's not really the case w/ the SR, since there is a US counterpart when it comes to a majority of the parts. The thing, though, is that any import car, whether offered domestically or not, will take longer to get parts for when compared to any popular domestic V8. That was the point I was trying to make earlier in this thread. The difference may only be a day or two, but you can't beat the convenience of getting the part the same day you need it at (insert your favorite auto parts store). . . btw, this paragraph only applies to ppl that don't live near Superior Nissan. lol.

For the $$$ you've saved going 1J over the SR, you COULD get a nice turbo setup. . . of course this is stated in comparing the SR motor set and the 1J front clip. (w/ the motor set, you're going to need an intercooler, piping, MAF<most of the time, anyway>, and other misc. parts that are needed to complete the swap) After all is said and done, I'm thinking you're going to save AT LEAST a grand going 1J front clip over the SR motor set. . . the choice is yours, but if you're wantig the best JDM bang for the buck, I'd say it's the 1J. We've touched on the subject of down time before, but here's the best advice that I can give anybody. . . If this is your daily driver, and you can't go w/o your car, don't even consider a JDM swap. Your best bet would be to keep the L series or use a domestic motor. B/c no matter how "bulletproof" your motor is, if you drive the car long enough, it IS going to have problems, and it's going to be YOU that will be w/o a car for the month or two it takes for you to get the part you need and install it. Kenny http://www.rbmotoring.com

Hey Z2nr, what exactly do you mean by the 1J being cheaper b/c is a "far less tuned engine?" The only reason the 1J is cheaper than the RB is supply and demand. The two reasons the RB motors are expensive is that they are from the infamous Skyline, and there are kits to install the RB motors into the 240SX. The skyline swaps are "cool" because you can tell ppl that you have a skyline motor in your car. The reason for the RB swaps in the 240SX is that is a lot easier than sticking a 1 or a 2J into it. A stand alone ECU is almost a requirement in doing cross breeds. Onece you factor in the cost of the motor, ecu, and tuning, it's worth going w/ an RB. On a car that has no ECU to speak of (like the Z ), doing a cross breed is almost as simple as plug & play (except for the mounting, of course). As for the comparison b/w the SR and the 1J being comparing apples to oranges, I'm not 100% that I agree. True, it has two extra cylinders and 500cc more of displacement, but look @ the price. A FRONT CLIP of a 1J costs as much as an SR20 motor set. The RB25 CAN (not does. . . I know there are exceptions) can cost twice as much, for a front clip, as the 1J. And all that $$$ for what? Bragging rights? I, for one, think that if you're trying to go w/ an I-6 turbo swap, the 1J is the least expensive, yet VERY rewarding way to go. (yes, the RB20 might be around the same price, but the 1J will be much more rewarding) If you're torn b/w the SR and the 1J, look at the power potential. I don't think. . . well, I hope not, anyway. . . that ppl think that the SR is a "better" motor than the 1J. The only problem w/ the 1J, and it's a big one, as it's been mentioned in this thread, is the lack of aftermarket support in the US. You can't go to a nissan tuning shop and NOT find at least one part for the SR, whereas w/ the 1J. . . well. . . you know what I mean But, I guess, if you want the best aftermarket support in the States, you'd go w/ a V8, huh?

oh, my bad . . . I was doing a search, and I coudln't help but reply. Besides, it'll probably be useful for someone else thinking about this type of hybrid Z.

I think for the budget builder, the best option for a JDM motor is the 1J motor. I've found front clips (which I HIGHLY suggest in doing a swap like this) for 1800, give or take a few hundred. Thant's cheaper than a SR20 motorset. And in IMHO, the 1J is a much better platform to start from than the SR. I can't remember the injector size, but I'm pretty sure that you're able to get close to 350hp w/ bolt-ons only. The main difficulty w/ these motors are to find one mated w/ a 5sp. Most of these motors are from cars like the Soarer, chaser, and luxury type vehicles. They also came in the older supras, too. There are two types of 1J motors: The single turbo vvt-i, and the twin turbo non-vvt-i. There are advantages and disadvantages for both, but if you're looking for the most power you can get out of bolt-ons, then go w/ the older twin turbo version. The newer ones have ceramic blades, and is the bottleneck. When you start talking about upgrading the turbos, as I'm pretty sure you're going to want to w/ your ambitious goal of 450hp, the single turbo will become cheaper to upgrade. (unle$$ you want to buy two turbo$ or a $tainle$$ tubular Manifold ) Having said all of that. . . I'm not even going to pretend that I know anything about american V8s, I didn't grow up around american muscle (hell, I didn't even grow up around americans. lol.) but I do know this, if you're going for the bang for the buck, either the GN motor (I know enough to know it's a V6. lol), or some other V8 is the way to go. Whether you're talking about initial cost or maintenance cost, import motors/cars are NOT cheap. If it wasn't for me growing up around what you guys consider imports (and all of the turbocharged goodness), I'd probably put more thought into a V8 swap. . . I'm personally going w/ a turbocharged inline 4 for extra lightness Almost forgot. . . the reason you shouldn't go w/ the 7M for that kind of power level goals is that the 7M can't keep head gaskets in tact. I had a friend that had a older model supra turbo, and it was a problem w/ him on a motor w/ only bolt-ons. He didn't know a whole lot about cars, so I was helping him out along the way. I can't remember if it was poor placement of head bolts or just a flexible head, but I do know that blowing headgaskets is a chronic problem w/ the 7M. . . besides, the 1J is newer. . .

If you level the playing field (turbo the KA to about 200ish hp) the KA will have the most torque. Lowend torque is mainly determined by two factors--Displacement and Stroke. The KA is obviously the winner here sine it has the most displacement AND a heck of a long stroke than the RB20. Next is the SR20 since it has less cylinders, in order to make up the same displacement, it has a longer stroke and a bigger bore. I'm guessing the RB20 comes in 3rd since the CA has the lowest displacement (and I'm really not in the mood to look up the stroke on each of these motors). The RB (w/ the right mods) is more of a free revving motor than the SR or especially the KA, but it definately does not have the most low end torque. If you feel like I'm talking out of my butt about this "stroke thing," ask any motorcycle rider the difference b/w the inline fours and the V twins. My take on swapping a JDM Nissan motor is this: Why get a heavier I-6 w/ the same displacement from a 4. The MAIN (I'm not saying only) reason ppl put the RB20 is to say "I have a Skyline motor in my car", just like thinkmonkey mentioned. Choosing the motor of your choice is dependant on your goals w/ your car. If you're wanting torque, get a V-8; If you want to keep the weight down, get an I-4; If you want to maintain I-6, but want more modern than the L series, then get the skyline motor. I don't really understand this facination w/ the "Skyline motor," though. . . The RB26 is a FANTASTIC motor that can handle a LOT of power, but the RB20 & 25 is no better than the VG30 or the SR. I'm not trying to sling poo, but there's just too much hype about those motors just because they are in a skyline. I've seen a lot of R32 GT-Ss w/ an SR swap b/c they wanted to eliminate the front heavyness and increase the torque.

Yea, I've seen a red car just like that one in option or carboy (one of my japanese mags). It said that they did the conversion because they thought that the 180 was more like the original Z than the bloated 300Z (don't get me wrong, I really like the late model 300). The kit was made during the surge of popularity of "classic" cars a couple of years ago. Many ppl wanted to buy (or bought) older Zs and Skylines only to find out the astronomical costs of keeping them on the road. (stuff like that costs waaaay too much in Japan--actually, come to think of it, everything there is expensive. lol). This kit allows old-school styling w/o having to deal w/ carbs, lack of available parts, and most of all rust (big problem in Japan). The dimentions are different enough that the only parts that are intertchangeable are the headlights. And now for the anticipated pricing. . . a hair over 3k . Kenny http://www.rbmotoring.com

Thank you VERY much for the pics . Sorry, I wasn't trying to jack the other thread. I was getting desperate for some type of pictorial guidance. I am going to try to talk to some of the tuners in Japan next month that have done this type of swap. I'm thinking that they might've kept the subframe in tact, but they tend to be secretive about custom fabrication and tuning. I'll try to get some pics of those, too, but we'll see. Again, thanks alot Kenny http://www.rbmotoring.com

I C this thread is dead for a while, but I have to put my $0.02 in. . . This problem seems to be getting worse and worse. I'm not even goint to try to defend "Stupid Street," or any other Primedia mags, but at least they had some cool looking cars. Now, they've become "Maxim," or "vouge." The only reason I kept buying SSC was b/c of Dave's column, and other useful (& somtimes useless but interesting info). However, it seems whoever took over Primedia has spent a lot of money on the photography by skimping on the knowledge dept. I'm pretty much done w/ mags, too. Especially now that Dave doesn't work there anymore.

Actually, the R32 subframe is not the same as the S14 & 15. The 32 subframes are a direct bolt-on for S13, but stronger (reenforced). The S14 & 15 subframes are not identical, but are interchangeable, as with the R33 (& I THINK the R34) subframe. The bolt holes on the 32 & the 33 are SLIGHTLY different, but can be modified to fit (some shops in Japan have spacer for this mod) I really don't think that these differences really make a difference for the S30 chassis, however, since there's going to have be cutting & welding to fit, anyway. To answer your question, yes, it's been done. It can work, but with alot of work. Kenny RB Motoring

Hey maichor, do you have any pics of the rear member installed? I've been thinking about this type of swap for years, and I finally have the resources (including location) to get it done. I'm not going to go as crazy as your setup. I'm going back to japan for a month on business, and I'm picking up either a 180SX or a silvia. I'm going to try and scavenge as much as possible(engine, rear member etc.) I'm also going to try to talk to some shops back home that have done this swap, but I'd like your input, also, and hopefully some pics . I've read your posts about the swap, but a picture IS worth a thousand words. btw, I have seen your posts that you have a link to more pics, but they don't seem to work. Thanks a lot Kenny http://www.rbmotoring.com

If you're on a tight budget, I'd say definately go w/ the SR20. True, the RB25 & 26 are great motors, but I really don't think I'd consider either of those a "budget swap." That narrows it down to the SR & the RB20. I'd say go w/ the SR20. The reasoning behind this is that first of all, the majority of the RB20s are going to be coming form older models, and the parts will have a higher chace of wear and tear. Another thing w/ the SR is the price of the build-up. There two less cylinders to worry about when buying forged parts or an exhaust manifold etc. etc. Torque is another advantage that the SR has over the RB20. But the RB20 will have cheaper upgrades when it comes time to up the displacement. So, w/ a little money, the RB20 COULD have more torque than the SR, but unless you can swap out internals youself, it's not going to be a cheap mod. If you don't mind broadening your horizons w/ non-nissan motors, I'd definately suggest puting the 1J (toyota) motor in. I think someone on this thread migtht have suggted it, and I'd like to reenforce the idea. I'm not sure about the pricing of these motors there, but currently, the nissan motors are waaay over priced in the States. I have put a lot of thought into using this motor, but I've opted to go w/ an I-4 (SR or 3S). The price of the 1J motor in the US is less than half of what the RB25 costs, and IMO is a better motor (depending on what year).

I might have to take back what I posted earlier. . . I just measured the distance b/w the framerails, and found out that the SX rails are MUCH farther apart than the Z. BTW, these measurements are from the S14, but I should be posting measurements for the 13 soon. . . I measured the distance from the OUTER edges of the framerails, and got 85cm for the S14, and 65cm on the 240Z. The thickness of the rails are both about 7-7.5cm, so this idea of mine may or may not work. Which really saddens me b/c I was hoping that I could use 2 SX cradles (1 for mounting the engine, and 1 for the steering rack w/ power steering) I'm getting either an S13 or a 14 next month (donor car) when I go back to Japan, and was going to use that cradle for the engine, and use an S13 cradle we had laying around for the rack and pinion for power steering from the SX (shorten the wheelbase by mounting the lower control arm inward about an inch or two). After getting the measurements, however, I'm less confident that it'll bolt-on. I'm still thinking, w/ modification, this might work, and I'll keep everyone posted as I find out more. I will be starting the project as soon as the S13 or 14 gets in, so it probably won't be til January.

yea, I hear the Pulser GTi-r (I think) had the solid lash head. Several other companies have them, too, but I personally like the direct acting cams. . . That's just me though. There are also rocker arm stoppers on the market that bandage the problem. It's more insurance than anything, though. It lowers the chance of a blown motor, but doesn't completely eliminate the chance. I know the SR16 could rev to the moon. . . did it have solid lifters, too? Our shop doesn't really deal w/ the FWD nissans, so I've never really thought about it. . . it's the VE right? Another personal preference is the iron block on the KA and CA. . . That's why I'd LOVE to see a KA23 or even a 22DET. Like I mentioned earlier, I think the direct acting cams, iron block, and the additional displacement would be a VERY formitable competitor to any 4 cylinder you could throw at it. However, I'm planning on doing an SR swap into the S30, b/c of the abundant aftermarket support. Besides, it's a heck of a lot cheaper than designing a crank form scratch.

I wish that that were the case. . . The CA is a much more tuner friendly motor that the KA. This is NOT to say that the KA is a bad motor. On the contrary, the KA has a very long stroke and delivers far more toeque at lower RPM than does the CA or the SR. The problem is that the motor, unlike the CA & SR, was not intended to me modded. The reason that many of these Japanese motors seem to have very high potential is that the motors are designed, to an extent, w/ tuners in mind. Look @ the RB26. That motor was NOT designed for 280hp. Neither is the crank for the SR. These motors can handle higher power levels and rpms w/ minor mods, whereas the KA has such a long stroke, the connecting rods are the 1st thing to go. I really believe that if someone would produce a beefier (I know I might bet flamed for this one) a couple mm shorter stroke crank (to make it a 2.3 maybe) and increased the rod length, the KA might, MAY BE, be the best motor out of the 3 options for the 240SX. But noone's done it, so I don't know. (btw, I'd love to, but I'm saving up for a different project of my own ) It just goes to show you that you can't have everything: The KA has a crappy bottom-end, the SR has a crappy valvetrain, and the CA just doesn't have enough displacement (torque).

Yes, the SRs & RBs have, in fact, been played out; however, there's a reason why they're played out. They are really really good motors. I personally like the CA more than the SR. The edge that the SR had though, is that there are waaaaaay more parts available for it. That's why I'm 99% sure that I'm going SR. Many ppl seem to think that the newer engines are somehow superior to that of older engines (RB>L, SR>CA etc etc). When, in reality, the main hinderance in older engines are the supporting divices like the out dated ECUs, and non-computer designed manifolds, etc. If you put as much money into an L series motor as you would getting an RB, I think that it'd be a VERY interesting match. This, of course, means a LOT of motor work to compete w/ the newer motors, like COMPLETELY rebuilding your L motor (from Forged internals to copper valve guides and valve seats). Another thing that the RB has in its favor is that there is a kit to intall it into the 240SX. I've helped w/ this swap a couple of times, and can attest that the mounts make it VERY easy if you have the basic knowledge of doing swaps. The one thing that I suggest in doing these swaps is that you SHOULD (I HIGHLY recommend) knoch out part of the core support to fit a set of electric pull type fans. The push type that many ppl seem to go w/ will NOT flow enough air to the radiator. BTW, I almost forgot of the benefits of using the L series over the RB motor. For the same $$$, you could bore & stroke out the L series motor, and get a 3.1liter single overhead cam I-6 that will be FAR more torquier than the skyline could EVER hope to be. Take that for whatever it's worth. It's $.02 from a guy that works around skylines all day.

from where?

Replying to HolyLlama on the difference b/w the SR20DE & DET: I was wondering the same thing, so we tore down a new S15 NA motor at our shop to find out. The difference b/w the SRDE & the DET (besides the torbo. lol) is alot more than I thought. This is what we found: -Distributor (or the lack thereof on the DET) -Different cam cover (the DE doesn't have the holes for the center plug cover) -More longer duration cams on NA -Exhaust valves are different (the DET has sodium valves, I think), -Intake manifold/Throttlebody is larger (the intake manifold design is the same. . . just the diameter of the inlet) -Exhaust manifold (. . . of course) -Pistons and rods (lower compression and beefier rods on the DET) -Block (no oil lines for the turbo, no piston oil squirters on the DE, but as far as I know, the durability is the same b/w the two) -Tranny, I think is different (I know for the S15, but not sure about the S13 & 14) -I have NOT checked the oil pump & water pump, but since the front cover of the motors are different, I'm assuming the inside's different also. What we found out is that if you want to build a DE into a DET, and make it as reliable as the original, there's a LOT more work that meets the eye. The throttle body and the cams are a good (and fairly inexpensive mod for the turbo ppl) Kenny http://www.rbmotoring.com

It shouldn't narrow or widen the suspension points at all. The 4 cylinder motor mounts should attach way farther back in the engine compartment compared to that of the factory Z k-member. So to answer your question, yes, should be able to use the k-member to mount a 4 cylinder (whether KA, SR, or CA). You're going to have to tap bolt holes in the frame rail, or just weld the member on. I don't know which way is better/possible since I have NOT done it yet. If you don't want to make a custom k-member, I think this is the easiest way to do it. I'm planning on doing this myself, but I'm probably not going to get around to that portion of the restoration until a couple of months from now. Not til I get the SR, anyway. lol.

Another thing to consider, realistucally, is what happens when something goes whong--like a turbo, or anything that comes w/ wear & tear. With the 300Z, parts will be easier to find, since it was offered here in the US; however, they aren't going to be cheap. Besides, you have two extra cylinders that can go wrong. And a LOT less room to work when trying to replace something. With the SR, the motor is a lot smaller, and access to evey part is very easy. You could use that extra space to have a V-mount set up w/ the intercooler & radiator. Extra space also means that you'll have to worry about cooling the engine compartment. Here's the problem w/ the SR, though: The engine was not offered in the US (except in NA trim), and finding parts, whether performance or maintenance, could cost you time and $$$. Ultimately, I think you should go for whatever makes you happy. I know what I'm going to do, but like 1bad180sx said, there is a higher chance of regret with going w/ a motor (or part) you're not 100% happy with.