vega
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Posts posted by vega
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are the heads at a different degree? what kind of numbers at what lift are we talking here?
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http://www.zdriver.com/forum/timeslips.php
(the 10.8 z {zeta})
http://www.streetfire.net/video/datsunnissan-280zs-powered-by-lsx-engines-one-ha_93527.htm
Check that out
Well that just shows how little I know about the ls motors. What was done to that 5.3? (my 333 is technically a 5.4). Also what is so special aside the aluminum block of the ls?
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while we're on the subject of small ci engines.......... Just a measly little stock bottom end 5.3
his suspension setup was for drag tubbed and the like, probably 4.10 gears (rx7) I will not be having a tubbed 4.10 datsun. Plus those first gen rx7s were way lighter than a 280z. Cool vid though. btw don't ls motors almost weigh what a iron old school sbc weigh because of pure mass even though they are all aluminum? I have been told they are the same size as a traditional 454. They are wicked motors though.
Why are ls motors making so much power anyhow? is it all heads/intake and ignition or what is so different between an ls and a sbc anyhow? I am not too familiar with the new blocks.
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I'll amend that to say, unless you are willing to run a monster cam, high compression, rev to 7500 rpm, and not really have a very streetable car.
I personally have highly considered a Procharger as I am fairly familiar with the units. I do not think that 7500rpm is needed, I would say max of 7000rpm. As far as a monster cam - it depends on what you define as a monster cam. Thus far (prior to deciding if I want to go blown or not) my custom cam of choice as previously mentioned; 110lsa 110icl (@50)236intake 247exhaust- as for lift I have to get my heads on the bench and see what we can do- a min of .52/.54 Which for the size of motor and where I want my power - this makes sense. If I wanted a purely top end hp car I would probably run a 195cc intake port (instead of the 190 i will be running) 250intake and 259exhaust I wouldn't even see power until way late which is not good for what I am actually using the car for (road race car). I also don't think nos is allowed even in open class for roadraceing if I remember right - I will have to check the rules again.
Again I am not here to try and explain why I am using a 327, I just wanted to know what kind of power I would need to get down the track with the gear ratios I have - with the weight (2800-3000max) I don't care to argue over something so small - you have your experiences with your big motors I have experiences with my small motors. Everybody happy!
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any updates?
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No you are totally right a 333 ci motor will never see 11s....
(rolls eyes) fwd (there is a problem to start, imagine if it was rwd or awd) all motor (no forced induction or nos) small displacement (there goes your argument) high rpm 4 cyl (here comes some theory for you) Too much tq just spins tires and breaks stuff. you only need as much tq as it requires to get the car moving- the rest of it is hp. The 327 has plenty of tq. rotory motors don't make crap for tq yet are the fastest import cars(high rpm results in hp), rx7s that is using the motor that came in the car - modified of course. (ANYTHING not american - including german) Its the right parts, plain and simple.
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Dad's old '55 chevy went 12.02 at 117. That was a 283 (.060 over) that turned an engine dyno to 498 hp, the other two just weren't there. He he. Not sure about race weight, but it was an all steel two door wagon, iron heads, 4 speed. I see no reason why a 2500lb car on modern tires (above times where run in the early '80s) could not run a second quicker with the same power. Driving style has a lot to do with E.T.'s and if you build a high winding 327 you will have to beat on it to go fast. It may have great torque and be plenty streetable, but you will have to drive it to hit those numbers. No one ever believed that little 283 would run like it did, but upon riding shotgun to my father slapping the rockcrusher through the gears at 8000+ the opinions would change. I say build it to your budget and see what it runs. If I turn out to be wrong and all these nay sayers are right... then you can spray it!
I would have gone 283 if it were not for the piston choices. Or more - the lack of piston choices...
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Want some real numbers, ok.
My 71 240 with a 450hp (crank hp) 362 cid (200cc dart heads (64cc), 292H comp cam, full length headers, rpm intake, 750 holley, 11:1cr, zero decked block, flat tops) with a T5 5 spd.
Ran 11.7 at 120 on the motor and 10.7 at 135 on a 200 shot on N02. And 1.5 second 60 footers with MT drag slicks.
After 120 mph, I had to change axle and u-joints much more often. An automatic trans might be a little nicer on the drive line. Over 130, maybe 5 to 10 runs before something broke.
And the 240z is lighter than the 280z. Never measured it but I would guess around 2800lbs with me in it.
ET is hard to repeat with questionable traction. However, trap speed will stay fairly consistent. First run I did with my V8 conversion was 12.7 at 110, second run was 14.0 at 110. Took a few years to tweak it into the 10's but then it wasn't fun anymore with all the rear end breakage.
As for suspension drag racing setup, start with the heavy springs in the rear and stock springs up front. And lose the front swap bar. This setup also cures front end plow (under steer)
That is what I wanted to know thanks much pyro!
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The half shafts are being replaced with modern motorsport units. doing the cobra conversion. The stall is going to be custom based on the cam, which we are not positive on the cam (my head guy) until we get the heads and put them on the flow bench and see what we can do with the cross section. Not much really to tell here, suspension is adjustable, will be using the type 3 bumper kit, head light covers. I have not gone and replaced the hatch or hood or fenders with fiberglass or carbon-fiber. I weigh in at 145-155 depending if I defecated that day yet.
My big deal is I there are guys around where I am from running (stock mind you) 911 turbos, corvettes, built gsx eclipse cars, turbo Honda's, built 3sl cars. Not many are in the low 11's, I would like to be one of the not many. Hence my goal.
The car is not specifically setup for drag. We are putting it together for BIRs roundy course in MN. So keeping independent suspension is one of trickier deal for this seeing that irs blows for drag. Re-11 tires are basically long lasting (10k mi) autocross tires. I was planning on running 245/45r17s. If I needed bigger I was hoping to get a relative answer. If 245 was too small we would juts get a wider tire. Re-11 tires are the stickiest high performance tire on the market right now- with zero comparison.
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Displacement is not everything, and I am simply not going to get into an argument about that. My sir II b16a is making 170fhp that is 98 cubic inches that equates to 1.73hp/ci. Your argument is flawed- its not just pure displacement that makes power. If the stroke is too long it can't spin rpm without issue (think piston speed). If the piston is too big- it becomes too heavy. More displacement by number of cylinders is the ONLY advantage displacement has. 4.4 v12 will make way more power than a 4.4 v8 sbc and it will be balanced naturally because of the firing order. There is way more to get into that discussion for a different thread.
V8 z guys in 11s what kind of power are you seeing?
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It seems really funny to me that most people only see two type of engine 'animals' ...the American muscle, and the 'tuner' , however it's all the same, v8 guys 'like me' just don't think they need to tune because they already have a good stock hp. Apply the same tuning tricks to any motor and you'll have a monster
exactly.
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With a 327, you are going to need a REALLY GOOD power adder. It is doubtful that 11 sec 1/4 mile will be achieved. Everything will have to be right on the money. Lightweight 2618 forged pistons, lightweight con rods and crankshaft. Best cylinder heads available. The right amount of machining of the block. The block itself may be the weakest item in the bunch. The induction system will need to be top rate. Ignition and induction tuning will need to be optimum. Experienced racers would have difficulty achieving the 11 sec goal.
Based on what? 327s don't NEED to spin so damn high to make that much power. Its about picking the right part. I personally am not a huge fan of no2. Hence my lack in experience in it. Mine is 40 over small journal forged crank I am having a custom itb efi setup made for it that is designed to be from 3500 to 7500rpm, the is made for a about 22-6800rpm. That really isn't all that high to me.
553hp fly at 7100rpm is nothing to spit at. With a better intake system (and far better cam choice) like I am running with EFI not carb, I would have no problem making power.
Calling the 327 a difficult motor to pull a time with is not a informed answer at all, one just has to know what part combination is needed.
The validity of a 327 is not what this topic is about, can we please stay on topic.
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with an 18% drive train loss this guy would have 540hp at the fly (claim of 442whp)
http://www.dragtimes.com/Datsun-280-ZX-Timeslip-21234.html
he is at 3080lbs with driver
and only 235 MT ET Streets that is kind of small to me.
this is on crappy conti tires (different car)
I really don't think 620 is needed.
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I am also not so sure that 620 fly hp is needed to take this down the track at an 11, look at the new zr1
http://www.corvettemuseum.org/specs/2009zr1/index.shtml
http://www.dragtimes.com/Chevrolet-Corvette-ZR1-Timeslip-19701.html
620hp, and some pretty damn steep gears. 3.4 rear end, 11.5 on 335 sticky street tires (ps2)with crappy magazine drivers. A 10.7 with stock ps2s, and a guy not afraid to really drive it.
I don't think a lighter car like the z (by at least 340 pounds)really needs 620hp.
Does anyone have more real numbers?
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A 11second flat 1/4 mile will take 120 to 130 mph trap speed (depending on traction).
A Z with street tires and stock rear end will have bad traction
So, plan on going 130hp in the 1/4 mile. That will take 620hp at the crank with a 3000 pound car.
I would build a 400hp 327 and add a 200hp shot of n02. Will be tough to make 620hp with a 327 with no power adders.
If the traction is good then all you need is 485hp to make 120mph in a 3000 pound car.(total weight). This can be made with a 327 but more gear would be required (3.90 or 4.11).
I found the stock 1/2 shafts and axles start to break at mid 11's, 120 mph range.
I am not too familiar with n02 with a 200 shot like that could I run a bigger intake port on the heads like a 195cc port vs a natural aspirated application would be best to run a 180cc? Also what kind of compression are we talking about for something like that? could I still run 10.5:1 compression on 93 octane with a 200 shot- or do I have to run a something lower like a boosted application? I am eventually going to drop a Wipple charger on the sbc. I will be running itbs and a custom grind flat tappet cam 110lsa, 110icl, 236intake, 247exhaust, not sure on the lift yet it will depends on what heads do on the flow bench.
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Those calculators don't factor in what rpm the power comes in, they don't factor in tq, they don't factor in gear ratios. et calculators are boloney.
I guess I would like to know the guys with v8s in the 11s without drag radials what kind size tire and how much power are they making.
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I work for bridgestone firestone its not about cost- its about class- i can use re-11 tires.
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Yea, I am aware of the can of worms I just opened here. Please bare with me here.
How much power is actually needed to achieve a flat 11 quarter mile time (estimated of course, perfect conditions bla bla bla);
1. in a 280z, factory interior (not stripped) just a front and rear park bench removal (bumpers)
2. keeping the 3.54 factory r200.
3. using a small block chev (i am in the build of a 327 for mine right now)
4. using a 4 spd 700r4 detente cable transmission (factory 700r4 gear ratios)
what kind of tq and hp (at the fly not at the wheels) would be needed to achieve this? by that matter new corvettes and other cars are hitting that 11 flat(or damn near it) on NON drag radial tires, what width tire would one need with that power output and the above guidelines?
I am asking this because I know how fast I would like my car to be when all said and done, and I don't really want to over build it. I am aware that power is addictive bla bla bla, you will always want more bla bla bla. That is not so much the case for me. I have been in 8, and 9 second cars, no thank you. I think it takes the fun away a little bit. This is just my opinion and I am aware many other disagree with that. I would be overjoyed with a low 11 second fairlady.
Thank you for the input in advance!
Vega~
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So I am a pretty fast reader- but this still took me 2 hrs to read all of this info. Great info, albeit has this gone anywhere?
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This thread needs a revive! sorry - that its 2 years old, BUT COME ON! BTW i have been trying to find an old x ram intake for my 327, I am having a difficult time finding one- and I am planning on using itbs from a boosa. There will be a build thread on that.
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Why don't we have a "like" button darn it all?
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"People will be offended by a couch if they want to."
You better couch that statement with clarification, I've been told by many my couch is pretty offensive...
I hope I never sit on that couch sir, I would assume it has to do with a mother in law?
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Ahmad is a Canadian and a Mechanical Engineer by training, he lives in the Toronto area and races at Mosport mostly. His Datsun Z race cars were built by Whitehead Performance (www.whiteheadperformance.com) and he first ran very highly developed NA L6s, then went to a Turbo L6 and now he runs the 4.3L Chevy engine (not Grand National engine). He is quiet and unassuming. I was lucky to do some laps in his newly developed 4.3L 240Z a few years back and the car is brutally fast as per the video.
Regards - Yasin
what is up with the 4.3 he was running? na? what's done to it?
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post please?
How much power is actually needed?
in Gen I & II Chevy V8 Tech Board
Posted
With the low tension rings would they also happen to be weaker though? Kind of like hypereutectic vs forged pistons? The hypereutectic last longer and have less friction BUT are not as particularly strong as forged?