Started my engine build (First ever engine build)

[Ben's Z]

1) I did get the "nails" in from the Fel Pro kit but felt the instructions on the "How to" book were wrong and his way was holding me from getting them seated. He said to put the chamfered side towards the block so that the sharp side does not dig into the seal. After trying to force it in and bending the nails I turned them so the tapered side was going along the rubber and that helped a lot. It also took me about 20 minutes to work all of this out. Will this engine leak oil live a sieve?

 

2) See pictures. One of the main cap bearings is sticking out past the main cap saddle. I did this when I plastigaged all the caps and I rechecked it for alignment in the saddle before final install with no difference. Should this be something to be worried about? I checked for end play and could not get the .007 feeler between the thrust bearing and crank. I tried the .002 as stated in the rebuild book but it is so flimsy I wasn't sure if it was in there or not. Crank spins freely.

 

3) I notice that the rear main seal is not riding totally parallel to the back of the block will this leak? It is not that bad.

Edited October 8, 2012 by Ben's Z

[Ben's Z]

If this post was related to "Mega Squirt" would someone reply then?

[josh817]

If its one of the middle mains, the saddle shaped bearing is a thrust washer as well. In you picture it doesn't look like a thrust washer though. You may want to pull that cap and see if its centered in the cap.

 

The rubber sticks with the metal insert in the center, that go on either side of the rear main cap, I tapped them in lightly with a mallet after squirting some sealant in the hole. I don't know if they come a little longer than they need to be but I got mine almost all the way down. Maybe 1/4" was left sticking up so I trimmed it, works fine.

 

 

Rear main seal, you mean the big donut that seals around the crank? That should be flush with the cap surface on the outside. Use a blunt tipped object and a small mallet to tap it in further. If I remember correctly, the cap itself should have a, for lack of better words, seat for the seal (like a little step). Basically, you should be able to tap it in until it goes no further, so that's exactly what I would do. Same for the front main seal in the front cover.

[SleeperZ]

The last engine I built was back in 1992.

[Ben's Z]

Here is the answer courtesy of my machine shop! The #1 and #7 bearings are wider than 2,3,4,5 and 6. My wider one is on #2 and I am going to move it to the #1 position. Again I don't think this will matter as the middle thrust bearing won't allow the crank to walk and hit those bearings. I took a .020 feeler last night and it fit between that wider bearing on #2 and the throw towards the back of the engine. If the thrust is less than .007 .020 should never be a factor even with heat expansion.

[josh817]

Yup I forgot all about that. I won't say it, but I will.... I thought it was intuitively obvious when the bearing were all stacked, in cellophane tape. Good thing you double checked your work before you glued her shut and stabbed her in!

[Ben's Z]

Try again dickbag. I pulled that main saddle and front saddle last night and for some reason on my engine that second saddle is narrower than all the rest and the bearings were the same width. Nor were my bearings in any sort wrap out of the box from Sealed Power.

 

Yup I forgot all about that. I won't say it, but I will.... I thought it was intuitively obvious when the bearing were all stacked, in cellophane tape. Good thing you double checked your work before you glued her shut and stabbed her in!

[Z Greek]

If you promise not to call me a dickbag, I'll chime in a bit. I am not a professional engine builder, but a dedicated hobbyist, a lifelong car nut, and someone who has gotten to know and appreciate the L6 engine over the last year or so. I have built three L28's this year, and have learned a thing or two along the way. I have assembled dozens of automotive engines, but only BUILT a few. If you get serious about this engine thing, you will find out what I mean.

1. Regarding the question of different bearing widths, there ARE different widths, but it is very obvious where they go. The width of the bearing shell matches the width of the cap/main saddle. In regards to your main seal question, it must be square with the face of the main cap/main saddle. There is no "step," as was previously mentioned in this post. You must drive it in square. Some prefer to place the seal on the crankshaft before lowering it into the bearings. I have tried this, and did not like it, but I can see how it would work OK. Regarding the rubber pieces along the side of the rear main cap. I put a DAB of silicone on the bottom of of the rubber, and then slide them in as far as they will go. There will be about a quarter inch still sticking out, trim that off with a single edged razor blade. Now carefully drive the nails (or flat metal pieces, depending on the make of the seal)flush with the pan gasket surface.

I am not trying to patronize you, but here is something to pay attention to. For each pair of main bearing shells, only one has a hole in it. the one with the hole MUST go in the saddle in the block. If you put the shell without the hole in the block, the engine will fail instantly. This mistake has been made more than once.

Here are a few "laws" of engine assembly I pay particular attention to.

1. Cleanliness is next to godliness. Clean everything until you could either eat off of it, or eat with it, and keep it that way. Seriously.

2. When installing bearing shells, make sure the back side of the shell, and its mating surface is ABSOLUTELY CLEAN. Secondary job of the bearing is to dissipate heat into the mass of the block. Never put oil, or any other foreign substance between the bearing shell and its mating surface, especially not locktite, as I have once heard recommended!

3. If you ever question anything, stop, investigate, and rectify. (like you are doing now!)

4. Check the engine for free revolution each time you add a piece. The crank by itself should spin VERY freely. If you have everything right, the crank should actually continue rotating for at least part of a rotation after given a quick "crank" with a ratchet on the snout of the crank. As you add pistons, there will be ring drag. Ring drag is harder to judge, but engine should still rotate very smoothly as you add pistons. You will get a feel for it.

4.5 Speaking of pistons, check ring gap on every piston. Better to have a little too much than too little. If you do end up filing the end gaps, be very careful to keep the end gaps square. Also, pay very close attention to the ring land which the side of the ring rides against. This is a sealing surface. If you are using used pistons, and need to clean the ring grooves, be very careful not to nick or damage this surface. Ring seal is as dependent on this surface as it is the bore of the block!

5. Pick the machine shop with the best reputation in your area, and then re-check every dimension. You mentioned plastigage in your introduction to this post. Plastigage is better than nothing, but is a little like measuring with one of those wooden rulers we had in grade school as kids. Better than nothing, but not very accurate (my opinion). If you are serious about engine building, start investing in some precision measuring tools. Start with some micrometers, and some snap gauges for inside measurements. It takes practice, but soon you will be making accurate, repeatable measurements. I recently graduated from snap gauges, to a dial bore gauge, which is a wonderful tool!

I received some great L6 specific advice from Peter at PMC Race Engines that was a huge help in my early quest for L6 power, Peter is a master of these engines, and a gentlemen as far as answering questions, if you ask nice!. I would also recommend setting cam timing, even if you are running a stock cam. If it is a stock cam without a cam card, I have had good luck setting it at split overlap (both valves open the same amount at overlap). This is actually how Rebello recommends timing the cams they sell, as they do not supply cam cards.

Have fun, good luck, and hope you find some horsepower!

[Lazeum]

what would be the cause of lube/oil on the outer diameter of crank/rods bearings during installation?

At the end of the day since there's clearance between parts, oil will get there anyway, isn't it? Especially since oil goes thru this area to go from the block gallery to the bearings.

 

Regarding the straight seals going on rear main cap, I wasn't able to slide one of the pin. I've tried hard (but gently) to push it without any success. So I didn't put it and called it a day. So far after 500mi, I've got 0 leak. That's something easy to change if it ever leaks in the future anyway.

 

if I can add some more inputs: as said before, keep everything super clean! Even by doing so, after my first 10 minutes run, oil pick up was badly contaminated by small piece of paper towels (invisible when soaked with oil)

Check twice everything (including pistons/deck clearance, ring gaps, etc.). Good gauges are mandatory for proper engine build.

Edited October 12, 2012 by Lazeum

[Ben's Z]

If you promise not to call me a dickbag, I'll chime in a bit. I am not a professional engine builder, but a dedicated hobbyist, a lifelong car nut, and someone who has gotten to know and appreciate the L6 engine over the last year or so. I have built three L28's this year, and have learned a thing or two along the way. I have assembled dozens of automotive engines, but only BUILT a few. If you get serious about this engine thing, you will find out what I mean.

1. Regarding the question of different bearing widths, there ARE different widths, but it is very obvious where they go. I really don't think this sealed power kit had different widths The width of the bearing shell matches the width of the cap/main saddle. In regards to your main seal question, it must be square with the face of the main cap/main saddle. There is no "step," as was previously mentioned in this post. You must drive it in square. Some prefer to place the seal on the crankshaft before lowering it into the bearings. I have tried this, and did not like it, but I can see how it would work OK. Regarding the rubber pieces along the side of the rear main cap. I put a DAB of silicone on the bottom of of the rubber, and then slide them in as far as they will go. There will be about a quarter inch still sticking out, trim that off with a single edged razor blade. Now carefully drive the nails (or flat metal pieces, depending on the make of the seal)flush with the pan gasket surface. I know I got this part correct.

I am not trying to patronize you, but here is something to pay attention to. For each pair of main bearing shells, only one has a hole in it. the one with the hole MUST go in the saddle in the block.Yes I put the bearing shells with the hole for the oil galleries in the block and not the caps If you put the shell without the hole in the block, the engine will fail instantly. This mistake has been made more than once.

Here are a few "laws" of engine assembly I pay particular attention to.

1. Cleanliness is next to godliness. Clean everything until you could either eat off of it, or eat with it, and keep it that way. Seriously.

2. When installing bearing shells, make sure the back side of the shell, and its mating surface is ABSOLUTELY CLEAN. Secondary job of the bearing is to dissipate heat into the mass of the block. Never put oil, or any other foreign substance between the bearing shell and its mating surface, especially not locktite, as I have once heard recommended!I used paper towel and lacquer thinner on the bearings surfaces in the block and wiped clean.

3. If you ever question anything, stop, investigate, and rectify. (like you are doing now!)

4. Check the engine for free revolution each time you add a piece. The crank by itself should spin VERY freely.This is the case right now. If you have everything right, the crank should actually continue rotating for at least part of a rotation after given a quick "crank" with a ratchet on the snout of the crank. As you add pistons, there will be ring drag. Ring drag is harder to judge, but engine should still rotate very smoothly as you add pistons. You will get a feel for it.

4.5 Speaking of pistons, check ring gap on every piston. Better to have a little too much than too little. If you do end up filing the end gaps, be very careful to keep the end gaps square. Also, pay very close attention to the ring land which the side of the ring rides against. This is a sealing surface. If you are using used pistons, and need to clean the ring grooves, be very careful not to nick or damage this surface. Ring seal is as dependent on this surface as it is the bore of the block!I am reusing my pistons. I put them in carb dip and used an old ring to clean the grooves along with a plastic brush from my gun cleaning kit. I light scuffed the skirts with carb dip and a scotch brite pad. I did the same to the tops of the pistons. Per the "How to" book I pushed each ring 3 inches down in to the bore with the top of the corresponding piston and measured with a feeler gauge I got between .012 and .017 in every bore except #6 which was a little high at .018

5. Pick the machine shop with the best reputation in your area, and then re-check every dimension. You mentioned plastigage in your introduction to this post. Plastigage is better than nothing, but is a little like measuring with one of those wooden rulers we had in grade school as kids. Better than nothing, but not very accurate (my opinion). If you are serious about engine building, start investing in some precision measuring tools. Start with some micrometers, and some snap gauges for inside measurements. It takes practice, but soon you will be making accurate, repeatable measurements. I recently graduated from snap gauges, to a dial bore gauge, which is a wonderful tool!

I received some great L6 specific advice from Peter at PMC Race Engines that was a huge help in my early quest for L6 power, Peter is a master of these engines, and a gentlemen as far as answering questions, if you ask nice!. I would also recommend setting cam timing, even if you are running a stock cam. If it is a stock cam without a cam card, I have had good luck setting it at split overlap (both valves open the same amount at overlap). This is actually how Rebello recommends timing the cams they sell, as they do not supply cam cards.

Have fun, good luck, and hope you find some horsepower!

[kaito]

If this post was related to "Mega Squirt" would someone reply then?

Why would this topic be related to megasquirt? If you dont know what it is then it must not be right? Also Why are you insulting people for trying to help you? It IS intuitively obvious as to where the bearings go. Also you didnt need to go to a machine shop to ask that question. Its in the FSM as well as the rebuild your datsun book. The answers are well documented, all you need to do is look. Also my sealed power bearings came in a plastic tray with plastic sealed around it so if yours wasnt like that then someone might have returned it.

Edited October 12, 2012 by kaito

[Ben's Z]

Why would this topic be related to megasquirt? If you dont know what it is then it must not be right? Also Why are you insulting people for trying to help you? It IS intuitively obvious as to where the bearings go. Also you didnt need to go to a machine shop to ask that question. Its in the FSM as well as the rebuild your datsun book. The answers are well documented, all you need to do is look. Also my sealed power bearings came in a plastic tray with plastic sealed around it so if yours wasnt like that then someone might have returned it.

 

It is not in the How To book. Yes FSM.

[Z Greek]

I put them in carb dip and used an old ring to clean the grooves along with a plastic brush from my gun cleaning kit.

 

Be really careful with an old ring, it is really easy to damage the land surface with a sharp object. I know it sounds like I am harping on this, but it is really important. You can have the best ring seal in the world on the bore surface, but if the ring does not also seal against the ring land, a portion of that gas you are trying so hard to trap in the combustion chamber finds a way out past the ring/ring land interface, and down into the crankcase. It is not like the engine won't run, but with the time and effort you are putting in, you want it to be as perfect as possible!

Good luck.

 

(I know what you meant about the "megasquirt" quip, hardly anyone ever responds to my posts either. Sometimes it's best to keep comments like that to yourself though, so as not to stir up the natives!)

[Z Greek]

I just looked at your photo's above. I was not able to expand them last night, the telegraph wires must have been a little finicky last night up here in the inland NW, we barely have indoor plumbing, much less high speed internet!

 

The bearing shell hanging beyond the width of the cap is NOT RIGHT! Take all of the caps back off and find out where you have them mixed up. Not what you want to hear, but you are only talking about 30 minutes. Remember, if something does not seem right, stop, investigate, and rectify!

[Ben's Z]

I pulled the crank all of the bearings on the block side were in the right configuration. I will button it all back up tonight.

[Z Greek]

How's it going Ben? Did you get the shortblock put together?

[Ben's Z]

How's it going Ben? Did you get the shortblock put together?

 

I did man! To me putting the bearings in correctly seemed to tighten up the crank free spinning ever so slightly. It did spin though with one hand on the crank snout. I put on all of the rings, clocked the tops at 10 and bottoms at 4 and stabbed 'em all home. Motor turns over nicely. Only had to redo the ring compressor one time, nothing more than light taps and little wiggling got all the pistons seated. All the rods plastigaged at .033mm. Need to order my .015 tower shims and then I am going to put the head on there and put the motor back in the car. I am going to do all the valve train work with the motor in my car. My garage is a disaster!

[josh817]

Don't forget to make sure the rods are facing the correct way. I nearly forgot to check, just assuming the machine shop pressed the pistons onto the rods in the proper direction. I think in one of those How To books it says the oil squirter on the side of the rod is suppose to be on the..... right side I think? Depends on which direction your viewing but just double check to be sure. Apparently the rods are offset ever so slightly to give a thrust on the crank I believe.

[Ben's Z]

The pistons never came off of the rods and notches in the pistons are facing the front. Do the # marks on the rod caps go on the same side as the rod I presume. i.e. 123456 are stacked with each corresponding number when looking at the side of the complete rod and cap

 

Don't forget to make sure the rods are facing the correct way. I nearly forgot to check, just assuming the machine shop pressed the pistons onto the rods in the proper direction. I think in one of those How To books it says the oil squirter on the side of the rod is suppose to be on the..... right side I think? Depends on which direction your viewing but just double check to be sure. Apparently the rods are offset ever so slightly to give a thrust on the crank I believe.

[Lazeum]

I looked at the notch for bearings to make sure orientation as good. That's another way to tell.