thezguy Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 I'm looking to get some info from the guys that are running "Wide" wheels and tires on their S30's. I'm interested in hearing from guys that are running 10-13" wide rims and still keeping the IRS. Please discuss openly with all specs. If this thread has been created before i apologize in advance. My setup is as follows ZG flares/Coilovers/ 17X9.5 Rota RBR in the rear. I am desperate to get rid of these rims as it seems like every S30 owner has a pair. I was looking at the CCW 17X11 -13 rears and i like them but the more i read i see that guys are running even larger wheels than that (with the BMF flares) which i am ok with buying if needed. My RWHP is going to require a massive tire so I'm open to all suggestions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 The lack of additional information is giving me gray hair. Obviously you are planning some massive flares if you are planning wheels/tires that wide. Are you also looking at moving the suspension more inboard and tubbing the back of the car? If you don't, at some point the extension of the wheel centerline beyond the stock location is going to put significant cantilevered loading on the wheel bearings. It will also affect the performance of the springs and the shocks. On top of that, If your "RWHP is going to require a massive tire" then you better re-evaluate the differential hyou will be running and the half-shafts attached to them. You also better plan on going to a 5-lug wheel instead of a 4-lug. I smell a forest fire in the making here so I hope you're thinking this through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thezguy Posted May 8, 2014 Author Share Posted May 8, 2014 (edited) The lack of additional information is giving me gray hair. Obviously you are planning some massive flares if you are planning wheels/tires that wide. Are you also looking at moving the suspension more inboard and tubbing the back of the car? If you don't, at some point the extension of the wheel centerline beyond the stock location is going to put significant cantilevered loading on the wheel bearings. It will also affect the performance of the springs and the shocks. On top of that, If your "RWHP is going to require a massive tire" then you better re-evaluate the differential hyou will be running and the half-shafts attached to them. You also better plan on going to a 5-lug wheel instead of a 4-lug. I smell a forest fire in the making here so I hope you're thinking this through. Where do i begin.. MM R230 swap kit. TTT LCA's and camber kit. No im not planning massive flares and there are more than a handful of people running 11" wide rims using ony BAMF flares. No im not moving the suspension inboard and no im not tubing the rear end out and no im not going to a 5 lug setup. This is not a track or drag car. The vehicle will be driven around town with the occasional trip to the strip, nothing serious. I understand the stress on the bearings but ive seen many others do what im asking. what im am after is specifics as far as back spacing/offset on proven setups. Thanks for your concern but ive got the rest of the car figured out. Edited May 8, 2014 by thezguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 (edited) Sorry - your reference to needing massive tires led me to think massive flares also. I guess knowing what you're really talking about for horsepower would better define it. My son has a 240 with the R230 set-up in the back with cryogenically hardened half-shafts. He's also running the Reaction Research wide body kit that can handle a 305-315mm width tire. He currently is running 275/40-17's in the back on 17x9.5" wheels. His engine is putting about 375 HP to the rear wheels and he lights them up with little effort because the car is so light and the BFG's are all weather and just don't have the traction of something like a Dunlop Direzza. The sizing of wheels and tires has been beaten to death so many times on this forum that it's a bit frustrating. The maximum wheel width is a function of the look you want. If you're going for the low-rider look you could have a wheel 3-4" wider than the tire. If you are going for a more conventional look then you'll want a wheel thats anywhere from the same width of the tire to maybe 2" narrower. I run 225/50-16's on 7" wide rims. If I want to go to 245's I'll need to get another set of wider wheels. For starters you'll be able to get the measurement from the mounting face of hub back to the suspension which will give you the maximum you can go in that direction. From there you just need to determine how wide a tire/wheel combination you want to run and that will determine the offset and how wide your flares will have to be. Obviously if a flare can handle a 305-315 width tire then it can also handle an 11-12" wide wheel - IF the offset is right and the flared fender is done correctly. You have to do the work to get the actual measurements on your car to know what you can do. The front will be different from the rear. You also need to measure both sides because they may not be the same. That happens with 40 year old cars. Edited May 8, 2014 by Phantom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thezguy Posted May 8, 2014 Author Share Posted May 8, 2014 Sorry - your reference to needing massive tires led me to think massive flares also. I guess knowing what you're really talking about for horsepower would better define it. My son has a 240 with the R230 set-up in the back with cryogenically hardened half-shafts. He's also running the Reaction Research wide body kit that can handle a 305-315mm width tire. He currently is running 275/40-17's in the back on 17x9.5" wheels. His engine is putting about 375 HP to the rear wheels and he lights them up with little effort because the car is so light and the BFG's are all weather and just don't have the traction of something like a Dunlop Direzza. The sizing of wheels and tires has been beaten to death so many times on this forum that it's a bit frustrating. The maximum wheel width is a function of the look you want. If you're going for the low-rider look you could have a wheel 3-4" wider than the tire. If you are going for a more conventional look then you'll want a wheel thats anywhere from the same width of the tire to maybe 2" narrower. I run 225/50-16's on 7" wide rims. If I want to go to 245's I'll need to get another set of wider wheels. For starters you'll be able to get the measurement from the mounting face of hub back to the suspension which will give you the maximum you can go in that direction. From there you just need to determine how wide a tire/wheel combination you want to run and that will determine the offset and how wide your flares will have to be. Obviously if a flare can handle a 305-315 width tire then it can also handle an 11-12" wide wheel - IF the offset is right and the flared fender is done correctly. You have to do the work to get the actual measurements on your car to know what you can do. The front will be different from the rear. You also need to measure both sides because they may not be the same. That happens with 40 year old cars. Phantom thanks for the response. I never really thought about measuring the off set that way.. That makes a lot of sense. As far as "look" is concerned i like the typical style. This "hella flush" crap people are doing now a days is just rediculous. Now for the fun part. This car will have the ability to make right at 1000rwhp.. will that ever get used? Probably not but it is on tap whenever i need it. I realize no "street" tire can hold back that much HP but i am running a traction control system and boost by gear/speed system so ramping up will be the key to putting the power down. Again this car is not meant to break records or be competitive hince why im trying to go with a 17" wheel and not a 15 with some wrinkle walls. At the same time I want to use this power up top and not have to worry about the wheels falling off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebekahsZ Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 PM your question to EvilZ. He even has a set of 11" CCW wheels he will sell you if you go to New York to get them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thezguy Posted May 8, 2014 Author Share Posted May 8, 2014 PM your question to EvilZ. He even has a set of 11" CCW wheels he will sell you if you go to New York to get them. Been chatting with him via text for the last two weeks. He wont sell them, I even offered to have a company come pick up the wheels and he said he was to busy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Wow -1,000 RWHP. You're right - tires aren't going to handle anywhere near that. I doubt if the R230 or its half-shafts will either. My sons is only rated at 700 HP. You're going to have to put some serious engineering into that drivetrain - and yes - you better plan on 5-lug wheels rather than 4-lug or you'll see your wheels passing you as you're sliding on your butt down the road. Not a happy situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebekahsZ Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 I have a widow with a rust free, garage-kept, non-running '75 who won't sell either. We get a lot of emotions tied up in these little idols. I think a good rule of thumb is 4.5" back spacing. If you are flaring with BAMF flares you just let the tire hang out the side and cut/flare to taste. I have BAMFs on back and my 275/35/17s with group-buy RBRs, and I have tons of room left for wider tires. Camber makes a difference-you can fit more tire under the flare if you tilt in, but then the tire hits the ground at an angle. If you are going to race this thing with wide low-profile tires, look into 18" wheels (MiKelly is your resource there with 18" CCWs), because that's what the C5, C6 Corvette community casts off. Corvettes both drag and road race. I personally love the RBR look and really wish it was available in an 18. I would go that way in a heartbeat. Phantom, I'm gonna start a PM to you about cryo treating stubs, so keep your eyes peeled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thezguy Posted May 8, 2014 Author Share Posted May 8, 2014 Wow -1,000 RWHP. You're right - tires aren't going to handle anywhere near that. I doubt if the R230 or its half-shafts will either. My sons is only rated at 700 HP. You're going to have to put some serious engineering into that drivetrain - and yes - you better plan on 5-lug wheels rather than 4-lug or you'll see your wheels passing you as you're sliding on your butt down the road. Not a happy situation. yeah i have a lot of work to do with the drivetrain but it will just be a freeway cruiser for now, nothing serious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thezguy Posted May 8, 2014 Author Share Posted May 8, 2014 I have a widow with a rust free, garage-kept, non-running '75 who won't sell either. We get a lot of emotions tied up in these little idols. I think a good rule of thumb is 4.5" back spacing. If you are flaring with BAMF flares you just let the tire hang out the side and cut/flare to taste. I have BAMFs on back and my 275/35/17s with group-buy RBRs, and I have tons of room left for wider tires. Camber makes a difference-you can fit more tire under the flare if you tilt in, but then the tire hits the ground at an angle. If you are going to race this thing with wide low-profile tires, look into 18" wheels (MiKelly is your resource there with 18" CCWs), because that's what the C5, C6 Corvette community casts off. Corvettes both drag and road race. I personally love the RBR look and really wish it was available in an 18. I would go that way in a heartbeat. Phantom, I'm gonna start a PM to you about cryo treating stubs, so keep your eyes peeled. Agreed but 18" wheels on a s30 just look funny to me.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thezguy Posted May 8, 2014 Author Share Posted May 8, 2014 I have a thought. What do you guys think about widening the wheel 1.5" and using a 1.5" spacer to make up for the additional back spacing that will be added? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebekahsZ Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 I'm running 1" spacers with my 15" wheels to clear my brakes. No probs so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebekahsZ Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 I'm running 1" spacers with my 15" wheels to clear my brakes. No probs so far. Did you look at Mikelly's car? I never would have guessed they were 18s had he not told me. I'm just trying to discourage you from buying wheels that are hard to get tires for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 If you want the suspension to work, you'll need to run 5 to 5.5" of backspacing. And you're a complete fool sticking with 4 lugs and 1,000 whp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thezguy Posted May 10, 2014 Author Share Posted May 10, 2014 I'd love to know why "I'm a damn fool" for running 4 lug. What does Street driven HP have to do with the amount of lugs nuts I have. If I'm not mistaken the number of lug nuts you have is directly related to weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CasperIV Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Here is my take on this discussion. Stress is stress. All these things you are talking about are adding stress. More power from the engine is more power through the wheels, which are held on by the lugs. More traction is more stress on the lugs during cornering, acceleration, and braking. Moving the center of the wheel away from your mounting surface is adding stress due to leverage change, again, on the lugs among other things. I won't try to say that you do or don't need to go to 5 lug, but I will leave you with this. In theory you are distributing the force over each lug, so it is 25% of the stress per lug per wheel. Adding a lug reduces the stress per lug by 20%. Consider how much you are increasing the stress on the lugs over stock with your other changes do you think it makes sense to not make an effort to improve this distribution (especially since the power change alone is over 650%)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thezguy Posted May 10, 2014 Author Share Posted May 10, 2014 (edited) Here is my take on this discussion. Stress is stress. All these things you are talking about are adding stress. More power from the engine is more power through the wheels, which are held on by the lugs. More traction is more stress on the lugs during cornering, acceleration, and braking. Moving the center of the wheel away from your mounting surface is adding stress due to leverage change, again, on the lugs among other things. I won't try to say that you do or don't need to go to 5 lug, but I will leave you with this. In theory you are distributing the force over each lug, so it is 25% of the stress per lug per wheel. Adding a lug reduces the stress per lug by 20%. Consider how much you are increasing the stress on the lugs over stock with your other changes do you think it makes sense to not make an effort to improve this distribution (especially since the power change alone is over 650%)? I have ditched the idea of running spacers becuase i just dont think it is "safe" the reasoning for running a 5 lug setup makes sense but i just dont see how " I am a fool" becuase im on 4 lugs. I have many friends with 800 plus rwhp 4 bangers on 4 lugs. They BEAT the hell out of their cars on the track and street on a regular basis and never once had an issue. Ive said it once and ill say it again, This is a street car.. Im not running laguna seca or a 9 sec pass anytime soon.. Couple freeway passes and the occasional trip to the track. This is a bucket list car with numbers in mind not all out race/competition in mind. It will see 70mph 90% of the time. Edited May 10, 2014 by thezguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Basically what you're saying is you're going to build a 1000 hp car and not use the hp, so you don't need to build it like it has 1000 hp. Except when you take it to the drag strip. But you're not serious about dragging it. Kinda doesn't make a lot of sense. I sincerely believe the R230 is weaker than the longnose R200 due to its crush sleeve. Regardless, in all likelihood you'll be running some sort of CV conversion so you can choose which lug pattern. To choose the 4 lug is to leave strength on the table that you might very well need down the line, because your hp number is so extreme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thezguy Posted May 10, 2014 Author Share Posted May 10, 2014 (edited) Basically what you're saying is you're going to build a 1000 hp car and not use the hp, so you don't need to build it like it has 1000 hp. Except when you take it to the drag strip. But you're not serious about dragging it. Kinda doesn't make a lot of sense. I sincerely believe the R230 is weaker than the longnose R200 due to its crush sleeve. Regardless, in all likelihood you'll be running some sort of CV conversion so you can choose which lug pattern. To choose the 4 lug is to leave strength on the table that you might very well need down the line, because your hp number is so extreme. The drag strip thing will just be for fun a couple times a year. I don't plan to abuse it there. Majority of WOT runs will be on open road. I do agree that the 5 lug conversion is a good idea but i don't think it's necessary for my intend use of the car. Also i am already running the MM conversion axle setup with 6 bolt flanges. On a side note if i do end up going the 5 lug route. What do you guys think about re drill for 5 lug in the rear? ive seen some guys fill in the "weak" spots mill and run a ARP lug. Is that exceptable or should i source the Z31 rear hubs? I currently have the silvermine rear brake upgrade so merely drilling and filling the hub appeals to me as i can use my already existing brake setup. My biggest concern is the front brakes as i running the toyota 4X4 calipers with some slotted/drilled rotors. Ive never felt very comfortable with these small front brakes and always thought a larger rotor was neccesary. I know there are not many large rotor options for these 4 lug hubs Now that MM is no more is there any other out of he box options for hub swaps? I know TTT sells a front hubs but they are pricey Edited May 10, 2014 by thezguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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