MSD 6AL/Painless Ignition Issues

[Thunderlane]

Hey!

 

So, I am close to finishing an install of a Painless #50002 Harness into my 260Z. Now, everything is functioning (lights, starter, fuel pump, etc) except for the ignition. I am trying to install an MSD 6AL Ignition along with a 280ZX distributor. I've attempted to wire this setup according to the MSD manual and several wiring diagrams from various forums, but none of them have let me start the car, despite it cranking strong! The only wire provided by the Painless harness is a switched 12V power source.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks y'all!

Thunderlane

Edited September 20, 2014 by Thunderlane

[NewZed]

That guy that gave you advice the last time you posted this is a moderator.  You should take the advice.

 

http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/119653-a-fine-kettle-of-electrical-fish/?do=findComment&comment=1120930

 

Forget abut the brand of harness and the 12 volt power source.  Figure out how the ignition system works and give it what it needs.  You didn't say if you have spark either, just that the engine won't start.  Check for spark.  And describe what engine you're working with - carbs, EFI, etc.  There are many engine swaps out there, 260Z doesn't tell much.

[Thunderlane]

Whoops, sorry!

 

I couldn't find the old thread for some reason so I didn't know someone had replied! I've also fixed the title to something much more straightforward.

 

I'm running an L28 with Roundtop SU carbs. I just picked up a Re-Man 280zx distributor with an E12-80 integrated ignition circuit. I've tried to use the MSD wiring diagram provided by the manual, as well as this diagram here: http://www.classiczcars.com/photopost/data/500/1918msd_zx_240z_1r2.jpg

 

I'm hoping that someone here has more experience with MSD ignitions than I do, or has done such a swap prior, since my past 2 months of research has resulted in no proper leads.

 

Also, if a moderator reads this, I feel that this thread here is more appropriately placed than the one in General Trouble shooting.

 

Thanks y'all

 

Thunderlane

[NewZed]

You might try controlling the coil with the E12-80 module alone first, to verify they work right, then add the MSD unit.  The MSD basically inserts between the E12-80 module and the coil.

[Thunderlane]

Okay, so I wired up JUST the E12-80, and still no spark.

 

Could this be a result of a faulty unit (E12-80) or a Faulty coil? I wired it according to the wiring diagram below, which appears to be a readily accepted way of properly wiring electronic ignition.

 

[JMortensen]

Could be a problem with either. Why not wire it directly to the 6AL? That takes out one variable. The two wires from the distributor go to the little pigtail on the side. I don't believe it matters which wire connects to which on the pigtail, but it's been 10+ years since I had mine working.

[Thunderlane]

I don't believe it matters which wire connects to which on the pigtail

 

Can someone please verify this? I'd very much like to make some progress but I'd TRULY like to not wreck my distributor. I've done some searching, but I can't find anyone that has dissconnected the E12-80 and ran the distributor off an MSD.

 

Any information is helpful! Thanks!

[NewZed]

One problem that you might be having is that the original 260Z electronic ignition module is still in place.  It would be at the end of that "tach sensor" wire in Post #5. That would be two modules on the coil negative but only one is getting the variable reluctor voltage spike.  The other one isn't so doesn't allow the circuit to break, therefore no spark.

 

Did the engine ever run?  Are you "upgrading" the original 260Z electronic ignition?

 

Describe what you have and someone will have a solution.  JMortensen's suggestion would work, but only if you disconnect the original module.  Then you would remove the E12-80 module, and extend the red and green wires from inside the distributor to the MSD module.  And the order of the wires would matter, because the trigger from the VR would be either rising or falling.

 

The MSD 6AL doesn't offer much more than the stock E12-80.  Might be simplest to just crawl up under the dash by the fuse box, disconnect the stock 260Z module, and use your wiring scheme in Post #5.  Sell the 6AL, and buy a  280ZX coil to work with the 280ZX module.

[JMortensen]

Don't ditch the 6AL. My buddy ran his 510 with the 4 cyl version of the Nissan EI and Dual Mikunis. Back to back runs showed 10 hp increase from MSD on a car that was making ~130whp. It is worth it to run it for the power, plus you have the added benefit of the rev limiter. 

[Thunderlane]

I guess I should offer a little more background on my Z. I bought it a year ago from a barn (nearly no rust) when it was half rotted into the ground, covered in spray paint, with no wheels on it. It barely ran, spark was very weak, the originial wiring harness was so hacked together by the Previous owner that nearly nothing worked, save for the front right headlight. So, I finally worked up the plans to take it all out and install a new Painless Pro Street harness (50002).

 

There is no original ignition unit anymore. It was removed with the original harness.

 

I don't know if I still have the original 260Z distributor, as the car came with an L28 in it, and I don't know if the previous owner used a 280Z distributor as well.

 

I believe I stated in the original question that I was installing an aftermarket wiring harness with an after market coil, using an aftermarket ignition because I could not find a wiring diagram that worked with the 260Z distributor.

 

I don't know why the quotations are around "upgrade", because it seems that going from "not working" to "working" is a HUGE upgrade.

[NewZed]

I don't know why the quotations are around "upgrade", because it seems that going from "not working" to "working" is a HUGE upgrade.

No offense intended.  You could have wired up the painless exactly like the original.

 

None intended on this question either - have you confirmed power at the coil during cranking?  There are two circuits from the ignition switch, one for cranking and one for running.  

 

One simple way to test the most basic elements of the system is to connect a jumper wire to the coil negative, leave the end hanging in air,  place the end of the center coil wire next to ground with about a spark plug width gap, turn the key on, and tap the jumper to ground.  That should create a spark from the coil.  You'll be mimicking what the E12-80 or 6AL does.  Make and break the coil circuit.

 

 

Off topic, a little, but the MSD goes to single spark at higher RPM.  How can it allow or generate an extra ten HP compared to a high energy ignition system like the E12-80?  There's no logical reason for it.  Maybe compared to an older points system?  My take on MSD has been that it cleans up low RPM running on engines that might otherwise miss or not get a complete burn due to high performance cams or high CR's.   Ignition system discussions are always interesting.

Edited September 25, 2014 by NewZed

[JMortensen]

No, it was Nissan factory EI. You're right that the MSD reverts to 1 spark after 3500 rpm. My explanation is capacitive discharge. Try getting hit with the stock coil, then get hit with the MSD. Or better yet, get your most gullible friend to do it...

 

The nice thing about my friend's experiment was that they were done 10 minutes apart on the same dyno on the same day, and it wasn't a very powerful engine, so 10 hp was a BIG jump.

[Thunderlane]

Okay, so indeed it must have been the E12-80 that had gone bad, which sucks because it was supposed to be remanufactured. Bummer. On the bright side, I got the car running, but it wasn't for any kind of time, since the fuel tank isn't in the car. It started faster than ever and sounded stronger than ever. I'll do some more checking when I get off work. Now I need to get it timed, swap for new plugs, etc.

 

For details sake, I disconnected the E12-80 and wired the two wires from the back directly into the magnetic pickup for the MSD. I attached the green MSD wire to the red wire from the distributor and the violet MSD wire to the green wire from the distributor.

 

I am curious however as to how a more efficient ignition system would make more power. I bought the 6AL for the Rev Limiter alone, I was not aware that it would possibly help with power.

[NewZed]

But you probably know a lot more now.  Broken stuff makes you smarter.

 

You should check your timing, not so much the advance number but the quality/consistency of the light.  If the mark is jumping around and seems retarded you might need to switch the wires.  It will run with the wires backward but the trigger won't be consistent.  MSD says violet is positive and most people say that the red from the VR is positive.  So you would have yours backward.  Red seems to be positive for the GM HEI module hookup, but who knows for sure what the MSD module needs.

 

http://www.msdignition.com/uploadedFiles/MSDIgnitioncom/Products/Ignitions1/6425.pdf

[JMortensen]

I am curious however as to how a more efficient ignition system would make more power. I bought the 6AL for the Rev Limiter alone, I was not aware that it would possibly help with power.

I'm not going to try to explain how a coil works, but suffice it to say that without a ballast resistor, the coil might be seeing 14.5 volts or so. With the ballast resistor I think the stock 240 with points was putting like 8V to the coil. Capacitive discharge in the MSD puts 400V to the coil if I recall correctly. MUCH hotter spark. If you have a carbureted car or crappy old injectors, a bigger spark can help you get better burning of the air/fuel mix.