HELP! (kinda long)

[Scottie-GNZ]

Can someone please educate me on GM cooling tabs and if anyone has used it, any negatives?

 

After putting my engine back together, I cranked it up and she purred like a kitten until it warmed up and I started hearing the sound of liquid dropping on hot metal. Discovered that coolant was seeping pass the threads on the top of the ARP head studs . I called ARP and they said this is not uncommon. It seems studs that are in water jackets act like a wick and the coolant just work its way up. I pulled the heads and all the studs and put them back with a better pipe thread sealer. Also dropped the oil pan, cleaned out the oil cooler blew out all the external oil lines, etc, etc.

 

$120 in gaskets and oil later, I crank it up again and same FRI**IN results. Another call to ARP and I am told it is not uncommon ( hello, hello, I have an echo ) for the leak to continue even after reapplying thread sealer. They recommend Aluma-Seal which major engine builders use and is guarnteed to stop the leak and not clog the cooling system . I tried it and it worked. However, I had to let the engine idle for about 30 mins before it sealed and then I let it idle for another 30 mins after to make sure. You guessed it, coolant in the engine. Off comes the pan, oil cooler, yada yada.

 

I decided to do a pressure test before I started the engine again. All was good until I got it up to 15# where I saw one stud seeping. One. Damn!! I am hoping that because the engine was only allowed to idle, the Aluma-Seal is not yet fully effective.

 

I am currently using a 16# cap and plan to drop it down to 11#, understanding the boiling point issue. My hope is that the lower presuure will reduce the chance of a leak. However, I feel I need more insurance and have heard good things about these GM cooling tabs and want to add it to the equation.

 

Anyone ever experienced this problem or used cooling tabs or see any problems with what I am doing? If I have to pull the heads again, it will be a while before I touch that damn thing. I am burning up the funds for my liquid-to-air I/C project .

 

Ah, the joys of trying to go fast.

 

 

 

------------------

Scottie

71 240GN-Z

http://www.mindspring.com/~vscott911/gnz.html

[John C]

Scottie,

Teflon thread tape should work.

[Andrew Bayley]

Scottie,

I TOTALLY feel your pain. I had an almost identical experience with ARP head studs. A friend and I built up a 406 sbc with ARP head studs and the damn thing leaked like a siv. I don't think it's a fault of ARP. Head studs just plain leak... no matter who you use. We tried all sort of sealers and what-not to stop the leaks. Fianlly, we just bolted on normal head BOLTS and were done with it. No more leaks and $250 wasted (gaskets and studs).

 

As for the cooling tabs, I'm not sure if you are talking about the "drop in" clay tablets. If you are, make sure you are NOT using Dex-Cool. Back in 1994 GM added these little tabs into the cooling system on the factory floor (because GM quality is a laughing joke) in all the Impala SS and Caprice modles with the LT1. After a few years, these car owners were noticing that their heaters were no longer working. As it turned out, the tablets reacted with the Dex-Cool and turned into a VERY thick mud like substance cloggin everything in the cooling system up. I know this first hand because I spent an entire Saturday flushing my Impala's cooling system.

 

...it was not pretty

...be careful

 

-Andy

[Guest scca]

What i use for EVERYTHING now is motorcycle case assembly sealer.. the semi hardening one.

its great.... it works like a sealer its impervious to almost anything and you can still take it apart later.

 

I NO longer use intake gaskets on the race car. i use a small film of this and thats it.

i do use the red high temp permatex for the exhaust. but ALL other mating surfaces are this stuff.. hell if it can hold a motorcycle engine together its good enough for me......

 

this is a trick i got from Dave Rebello.

it was hard to find but i can give the brand if you need it. a toothpaste size tube is $8 or so. i bought 2 but havent even used one in a full season of racing. - 3 motor swaps, 3 thermostat re/re's etc. and i use it for all sorts of other stuff as well...

 

 

 

------------------

Mike

mike@fonebooth.com

http://www.fonebooth.com/brakes.html

raceparts and brake upgrades.

[Guest RON JONES]

yamabond(sold at yamaha dealers)works great.As for the head studs,have you tryed loctite's PST #565(pipe sealant with teflon).I have had very good luck with this stuf on head studs in the past.

[Guest zfan]

RIGHT ON!! LOCTIITE PST WORKS GREAT!!!

 

Z/FAN...MIKE

[John C]

Scottie,

What ever you use,make sure your block and studs are clean and dry of oil,water or antifreeze.Also let your sealant dry before adding any fluids.

[Modern Motorsports Ltd]

Ditto John on having them v. clean before applying their sealant. ALSO make sure the block threads are v. clean, I sprayed brake cleaner down mine (small amounts) to help clean them out.

 

Not sure that helps as I'm sure you did the above anyhow but FWIW, I've had not troubles with my Pioneer head studs on two motors now. Used some generic stuff on the first motor and they were HARD to remove for the 2nd. Cleaned/soaked etc etc and used Loctite PST on the 2nd one (was going to get the GM stuff, but Loctite PST is the same and cheaper) and it's still fine...it was a bit hard AIR to get enough loctite on the threads but not too much so I didn't have a lot of cleanup to do before head gasket placement etc.

 

both motors 9.4:1 compression, one cam with v. little overlap and a little more on current setup..17 lb cap AIR

 

Ross (head studs are cool )

[Scottie-GNZ]

The hood is on the car!!

 

That means it had its initial shakedown drive and so far, so good. Plan to get a couple hundred miles on it by the 20th and take her to the track for some easy passes to see if it will survive.

 

------------------

Scottie

71 240GN-Z

http://www.mindspring.com/~vscott911/gnz.html

[randy 77zt]

those gm sealer pills were used on the cadillac 4.1 aluminun engines-they worked bu the real problem is that it shouldnt need this kind of help.i use the motorcycle case sealer on nissan trans-it good stuff.

[pparaska]

Took me a while to find this thread, but I KNEW Scottie had trouble with a head stud seaping coolant.

 

Exactly what I found today while getting an initial idle tune on the VE map of the megasquirt (now running an Innovate! Motorsports LC-1 WBO2).

 

I used ARPs thread sealer on the studs - plenty of it.

That didn't keep all of them from leaking!

 

I just got back from the Chevy dealer with the PN 12378254 "Cooling System Seal Tabs". I hope they work, as I don't want to be pulling the head. The local machine shop says this is common with head studs and they have always worked for them. I don't use Dex-Cool, so it should be o.k. Anyway, the newer formulations of Dex-Cool and the cooling system seal tabs are supposedly compatible with each other. The dealer parts guy mentioned they use them as part of a TSB on an intake manifold leak - I didn't ask what engine that was.

 

If that doesn't do it, I'll get some yamaseal and tear her down.

 

The mailman (who's a gearhead with a nice SBC 67 Nova) said the car (with the 406) sounds like it has a big block now . He wants to replace his little 327 with a 400 now.

[dr_hunt]

Well, this is an age old problem. Run the car with just water for awhile, 3 to 4 days, it'll quit leaking after awhile on it's own, drain the water, add 50/50 mix.

 

I've tried ARP sealer, pipe sealer, silicone, RTV, teflon tape, but unless it's getting in the oil which is shouldn't be unless your head gaskets aren't sealing, you'll be fine.

[Scottie-GNZ]

After several issues with leaking head studs, the resulting tech article is answer and really works. Never even gave the issue a thought on this last go round.

 

http://www.turbobuicks.com/articles/HeadStuds/HeadStuds.asp

 

Maybe we can post this as part of our tech library.

[Guest 73Turbo240z]

After several issues with leaking head studs' date=' the resulting tech article is answer and really works. Never even gave the issue a thought on this last go round.

 

http://www.turbobuicks.com/articles/HeadStuds/HeadStuds.asp

 

Maybe we can post this as part of our tech library.[/quote']

 

agreed... on the built 3.8 were assembling in my garage for the GN we used GM thread sealant for those passages/studs, gave it the 12 hours and 1/4 turn... then put the heads on along w/ some odd headgasket setup (based heavily around silicon and a roller w/ a metal headgasket.

 

can't say for sure if it's been successful yet as were still waiting for replacement roller rockers and chromemoly pushrods from SE Turbo... but we expect to not have any problem w/ the break in period.

[pparaska]

IMO, ARP is at fault here. There instructions only say to clean the (shipping) oil/coating off the threads of the studs and to clean the threads in the block and use ARP thread sealer. I did all of that religiously.

 

It's obvious that I'm not the only one who's followed their procedure and had leaks. Their procedure is not any good at keeping leaks at bay, and needs to be revised, as well as their thread sealant (which looks VERY MUCH like typical white teflon sealant you get in the hardware store).

 

The "Seal Tabs" fixed my only for a day or so, and I worry about heater valve clogging or jamming, since this part has a weak seal even new and tends to seap ever so little. I'm amazed at the vegetable technology that enables the seal tabs to work, but it still seems like a band-aid to me. The proper sealant and procedure is out there (as Scottie linked to) so that should be what is done.

 

Scottie, thanks for the pointer to that article. Can we get permission from your turbobuicks buddies to copy the content here to our FAQs? I prefer to have the content local, not just a bunch of links. We would of course show the link to where it came from and attribute it to their site, author, whatever.

[jbc3]

Pete,

Don't feel too bad about just briefly cleaning the ARP bolts... I did the full monte after the machine shop, super cleaned the head studs and chased and cleaned every thread and I still had a couple of lower head bolts leak using the ARP sealer. The GM pills and 30 minutes later never leaked again it's been 3 or 4 years. I have also heard of some engine builders that actually throw a pill or 2 in the block behind a freeze plug just for good measure. Sneaky trade secret!

 

Jody

[deMideon]

Hmmmm..... I've been chasing leaks for a while now... I wonder if this is part of it since I am using ARP studs as well. Where do you get the GM "pills" is there a part number? Or would you guys recommend the Aluma-seal?

 

Although I am STILL having a problem with the back plate loosening up on my milodon water pump! It's coming off and I'm going to seal it and use locktight blue on the !$$#$#@!#!!! bolts!

[pparaska]

I used the 5 smaller tabs, PN 12378254. They are part of a current TSB for an intake manifold leak on some Chevy products. So a Chevy dealer should have plenty in stock. Here's a link to some info on one of the bulletins. http://www.impalahq.com/HowTo/CoolantLeak.html

I've read several places that if you just drop them in the radiator tank or hose, the crushing operation isn't needed. That's done in that bulletin because you're putting the pellets in the expansion tank of those cars, and if you don't crush them first, the small lines from the tank can clog. That's net wisdom, for what it's worth.

 

More stuff from googling:

http://www.flashoffroad.com/Diesel/No8Cyl/CrackedBlock.htm

 

WOAH. Fixing a pinhole leak in a cylinder wall with ginger root and almond shells? Crazy!

 

Here's GM Tech Links article about them:

http://www.gmtechlink.com/images/issues/mar04/TLMar04e.html#story7

[deMideon]

Cool! Thank you... after I make my water pump so it will never come apart again... I'll add those to my fluid!

[pparaska]

Well, I continued to see water dribbling out the lower studs/nuts.

And the water kept disappearing from the recirculation bottle - more than I'd think would be taken up by any initial water pockets.

 

Drained the oil pan and found that I had a dark chocolate milkshake in there!

 

Ugh.

 

I pulled the #1 rod bearing cap. No really bad damage, the bearing babbet looks a bit polished in a few places is all. I don't believe it's enough to open the clearance. I decided that if that rod was o.k., the rest of the rods were probably fine as well as the mains. If not, I'll just have to pull it later and rebuild it. THAT will really piss me off if I have to do that!

 

I've pulled the heads and put in head bolts with permatex non-hardening sealer on the threads - that's always worked for me in the past. I'm doing a pressure leakdown test on the cooling system at the moment. It looks o.k.

 

ARP really pisses me off about this. This is SUCH an known problem that the internet is full of it and the machine shops say it happens all the time. The guy at the local speed shop said he learned this lesson on a 502 he built.

 

My feeling is that they should advertise head studs as "race only, you may get water in the oil" or impliment instructions and a good sealing compound like that "LocTite 567 PST Pipe Sealant With Teflon (very important and not very expensive!)" quoted in the Turbobuick's tech page that Scottie pointed to.

 

Of course, I'm partly to blame, going for all the go-fast parts. I was trying to save the threads in the block, to tell you the truth. I've had problems in the past with the threads getting worn and worried about stripping out the threads. The only GOOD reason for going to studs is if you have an aluminum block, or are puttng more combustion pressure into the cylinders than bolts should be used for - like the GN motor when boosted well beyond stock levels.

 

But ARP needs to AT LEAST advertise these stud kits with some caveats, and put them in the instructions. What they ought to do is come up with a better procedure and sealant.