advice which is the better motor

[BLKMGK]

The Northstar engine may be PUT in a "luxobarge" but that motor has serious potential. Remember that much stock is being placed in a story on a WEB site here - it's quite possible there's another side to this story and that not everything on the WEB is accurate (just visit a Mustang WEB site).

 

Put into a Z some of th epackaging problems of having themotor in a Caddy can be taken care of - like the water pump motor mount. You might even be able to get the water pump down lower if a high mount is a problem. There are folks out there getting SERIOUS horsepower out of those motors and if someone wants to be different it certainly is that! Heh, and he's already bought the motor. Pretty much new in the crate too so it's seen little if any "abuse".

[Mikelly]

My $.02 on the Northstar is this: Just like any other GREAT IDEA, it will have teething pains. That motor is an engineering beauty in my opinion. Talk to me about the silly way you have to remove the crank pully to change plug wires on a new LS1... That is SUPER STUPID. Still a nice motor, but a stupid design.. These engineers are doing great things in motor design and developement, but often times, there is little follow up to fix the minor issues that grow into larger ones. Demand for a product overtakes the need to redesign or fix engineering flaws and pretty soon the manufacturer is found playing catch up to public need, until the warranty and repair costs surpass the profit margine on original sales. Only at that point will the manufacturer step up design review and come up with a better solution.

 

I think JamieT is gonna have one hell of a ride with that NorthStar! Would I do it? Maybe. It certainly will be different!

 

Mike

[Scottie-GNZ]

Paragod,

 

the last thing I want to do is start (err, continue) a political discussion but I have to make some comments about your post. I disagree strongly with everything you say except the "Buy USA" part. However, the beauty of the USA and this forum is that we are all entitled to our opinions.

 

"It is a luxobarge motor"

What does the car that an engine gets placed in have to do with the engine itself? Let's see: Hemi in the Chrysler 300; Quad-cam V-8s in a Tundra, Q45 and LS4xx; the original Nissan V-8 in the Princess; the Aurora, etc.

 

"What happened to the engineering capability of the US?"

Ask the bean-counters.

 

"how many engineering majors graduating these days are US citizens"

Are we forgetting the foundation this country was built on? If the majority are not US citizens, what is that saying about the US citizens?

 

"Why did GM build such a piece of crap?"

One of the proof's of a great engine design is that race teams are willing to use it as the basis for their powerplant. The Northstar is on its way to becoming a great race engine. The rest in that list speak for themselves. BTW, Toyota/HKS is about ready to unleash a 1,500+hp Tundra-powered Celica on the import drag racing world. Do you think that team said, "Nah, lets not use that POS truck motor?".

 

Geesh, how could I forget the Buick 3.8L Turbo?

 

Jamie, you have a hell of a project on your hands and if I had one in my hands I would be doing the same thing. I love an engineering challenge. To give you some encouragement, here is a NS being trial fitted in a Miata frame. Should make your project a piece of cake

 

Apologize if the this post was inappropriate.

 

 

[ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: Scottie-GNZ ]

 

[ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: Scottie-GNZ ]

[Guest Anonymous]

I would talk to some Cadillac Performance people about it. There was a site on the web and I can't seem to find it at the moment, but they have performance parts for the Northstar. I'd candidly ask them about the problem. I think the engine definitely has potiential. Isn't it still in production?

 

Regards,

 

Lone

[Guest JAMIE T]

Lone, I did email Alan Johnson of Cadillac Hot Rod Fabricaters(it was the first thing I did after reading the web page), I posted the results earlier in this thread. Basically he said to run headstuds instead of head bolts. He is an honest guy who makes his living building Northstar engines, he knows the heads-up on them. I will likely use some anti-seize compound on the studs when they are installed. Thanks guys for the support.

 

Jamie

DEATHSTAR

[Guest Anonymous]

LMAO boy told you all about the 'sacred cows'! To tell you the truth maybe the H-D thing stems from the fact that someone opened a biker bar across the street from my house. Every Friday and Saturday nite ppl stagger out to their unmuffled Hogs and proceed to blast up and down the street (if they don't fall over in the gravel parking lot first)! If I pulled the muffler out of the Supertrapp exaust on my 1314 cc Yamaha FJ1100 (reground cams, smoothbores, Dyna ignition, aftermarket suspension, fast old bike) I doubt I'ld make it around the block before a cop pulls me over for excessive noise. Somehow the guys on the Hogs never get bothered. Well, whatever. As far as the Northstar transplant is concerned I'm probably being overly pessimistic. It's just puzzling as to why actual owners and former employees of GM would have similiar opinions. Why did GM have the Northstar and Aurora developed almost simutaneously? Maybe, like the government does when it submits contracts for high performance fighter aircraft, they should have picked the best of the two and saved a heap of dough in manufacturing and warranty claims. Haven't heard many complaints about the Aurora. Sure makes a beautiful song great at Texas Motor Speedway. At Le Mans the Caddy LMP was woefully underpowered despite twin turbos. Maybe I just have it all wrong. Scottie-GNZ ty for the restraint. You're right about the freedom to express ideas, and I'll be a little more respectful of the feelings of others (have I heard THAT before???)

 

[ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: PARAGOD ]

[BLKMGK]

Eh, I don't care much for HDs. Not much engineering that I can see going on (programmable EFI tho') and it's only the "foreign" manufacturers that I can see doing things like oval pistons

 

However, on the basis of one WEB site I'm not going to condemn the NS engine. I'm also not going to base my opinions on a race car that might not have done well. I've got no "sacred cows" nor am I so rah rah on the US engineering stuff that I'll cheer anything made in the USA. Heck, I drive a Mazda rotary! What I do consider "sacred" is that it's okay for someone to try something new. If there was a NS engine lynig on my floor I'd be pretty tempted. Heck, someone somewhere had to decide to try and stuff a SBC into a Z somewhere didn't they? Personally, I'd be more tmepted to try a Ford 4.6 Cobra motor but only because I can get them more easily. Jamie is still doing research, we'll see how it goes. I wish him the best and will support him as best I can and not try to tear down his "better idea". (Shrug)

 

P.S. I think Scottie's comments were right on and I note no one jumped to HDs defense. I'd expect that most, but certainly not all of us, given a choice between a crotch rocket and a HD would choose the furrin' bike. I sure would! Heh, and if we're not graduating as many engineering majors it speaks of our populace but also of our teachers. Something, other than a communist dictator, must be drawing all these kids to our schools...

[DavyZ]

"Loud pipes save lives." At least I know when there is a Harley about; there is no mistake. No so with a BMW...

 

Davy

[Guest Anonymous]

Heh heh, why do I find it amusing when the big manufactures fall on their faces? Any shrinks out there that can let me know? Anyway, if it makes anyone feel better, the great Honda goofed bigtime with the oval pistoned NR 750. Reasoning behind it's development was based on racing rules which prohibited any engine with greater than 4 pistons. To achieve as much total valve area as possible in a narrow motorcycle engine the idea was hatched to make an psuedo v-8 oval pistoned engine with, if memory serves me correctly, had 6 or 8 valves per cyl. The pistons, rings and cylinders were godawfully difficult and expensive to produce. Think about how standard cylinders are bored and honed. Now imagine trying to do the same to an OVAL cylinder. Honda never succeeded in perfecting the NR 750 for competition, but sold a few production ones to regain some prestigue. I give them a big thumbs up for trying something different.

 

[ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: PARAGOD ]

[pparaska]

Firstly, Thanks to Scottie for reminding us of the spirit of HybridZ.

 

Secondly, I understand the "sacred Cow" thing about HD. But I'm not going to touch it here either. It won't change anyone's mind about HDs anyway. Let's just say that I've been woken up WAY TOO MANY wee hours of the morning because some HD riders thinks it's more important to be heard (loud pipes save lives!) than for their neighbors to get uninterrupted sleep !

 

Me, I took the easy road - SBC with a carb. I'd love to upgrade to EFI, and maybe build something different some day (GNZ, NSZ, Kit Cobra).

 

Jamie, Scottie, Lone Star 1, thank you for pioneering another engine swap!

 

[ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: pparaska ]

[Guest Anonymous]

Ok, I will have to step in here I think with a counterpoint on Harleys:

 

'Cops don't mess with loud pipes on Harleys.'

 

Perhaps you need to talk to some of the cops I have and tell them that. Another reason they (we) recieve less attention is you can short shift a loud harley and the cops don't notice it because of the low pitch. I like to call it stealth riding. A 4 cyl ricer bike will drone something terrible and is alot easier to hear as being loud. But really it depends on the area and the police in that town.

 

As far as dudes getting liquored up and starting bikes to noisey, I can only say sorry for them doing that, but I don't think it should lump all Harley riders as being inconsiderate. I've found most of the guys would truly give you the shirt off they're back to help you out and they actually do stop and help if your bikes broken (which isn't very damn often these days dispite what some want to believe as parts falling off the bike etc. Sorry not these days.).

 

Technology and H.D.:

 

When HD doesn't have a 2 1/2 month (or longer, some models out to 6 months) lead time on bikes that are ordered then it needs to worry about upgrading its technology. People ordering them don't care about initial performance, the HD is like the basic Chev 350. Solid, dependable and its a smog motor! It also responds exactly like a HP american V8 does to hop ups. Loud exhaust are what we call 'Free flowing' in the car crowd, but considered wrong if its on a bike thats annoying you. Carb and cam and head changes are the same way. Until you've ridden some of the motors that are HD clone motors from aftermarket venders that are poked and stroked, you can't appreciated how damn fast they really can be. I've seen strokers doing third gear power wheelies no problem. I've seen a big bore buell (taken out to 84 cu in's) that will power wheelie through four gears and give a top end easily on the other side of 160 mph and its just cam, cylinders and head change. Its funny we talk about them as being technically inferior, but we dig our technically inferior pushrod V8's to death. Same deal, different vehicle guys. People love them or hate them, not much middle ground. The Factory is making big strides in the last 15 years or so. Refinement is much more a HD trait than complete redesign like the Japanese are fond of doing. Look at the new V-rod HD just came out with, older technology, but it was a 'porshe helped with' design that is now available. Its a 60 deg Vtwin DOHC water cooled 4 valve per cyl that basically was they're Vr1000 which was a bit of a disappointment as a racer, but as a street bike it'll work out great. The company walks a fine line between what people want and the EPA and the EPA is slowly winning, the air cooled bikes will eventually be gone, not a prediction, but a fact.

 

Well thats all I have to say about Harleys, you either love em or hate em, I love em. *shrug*

 

Regards,

 

Lone

[pparaska]

Lone, some observations for you on HDs and cars.

 

There are guys around with "free flowing exhaust" on their cars and yes this is loud sometimes, but usually the right frequencies are muffled to keep it from pop-popping through the walls and closed windows of the house - even with flowmasters it's better than a HD with open or almost open pipes. It's all that high frequency crackling at low rpm that makes these HDs so annoying and that make the sound go right through window panes, etc.

 

The problem I have with many of the HD people around me is that they think that they NEED to have a loud exhaust for safety in riding around cars. That, and as they roll to a stop or into their driveway late at night, or out of the driveway EARLY in the AM, they feel the ridiculous need to pull in the clutch and to BRAAPP the throttle. Sure, they've come down the street pretty stealthily, at low rpm, (but even that is pretty loud - I just heard them on the other street climbing the hill) and they waste all that stealth by cracking the throttle once or twice. I know the old HDs would sometimes be tuned so they'd load up and you needed to do that to clear them out. But the new bikes that these people have with the loud pipes (AND I MEAN REALLY LOUD), don't need to do that. This is VERY common around these parts.

 

What really makes me laugh are these turkeys who don't know a damned thing about how engines work buy a new HD, put on a straight set of pipes, maybe with a half of a baffle (that does next to nothing to quiet the open pipe) and lose ALL the low end torque. So now they have a bike that not only tops out in a power band at less than 5000 rpm, but have no low end either. Chuckle heads, I tell ya.

 

If HD people don't want a bad rap, they need to talk to these idiots that put loud pipes on and piss off their neighbors. I'll never say anything to them because they get all defensive and say how it NEEDS to be loud and all that absolute CRAP.

 

I guess the real thing that bothers me is that these people ARE really nice, until you mention that their HD is too loud. Then they get all defensive.

 

Damned selfish if you ask me.

 

[ August 04, 2001: Message edited by: pparaska ]

[BLKMGK]

My street sees a good bit of traffic - it's a cut through. Not too many bikes though thankfully. However before my windows were changed two things really pissed me off. Bikes with loud pipes and punks with booming stereos. I literally had windows rattling in the BACK of my home when these folks rolled through. With new double pane windows and additional insulation it's not occured again but I can tell when they come through and the dogs go ballistic!

 

At shows there are two things that people hate - booming stereos and jerks who crack the throttle on their bike or car over and over. It's not just the HD guys that tick people off doing this but they certainly can top the others for noise level. Thankfully peer pressure keeps it down mostly. Lot's of these guys just want to irritate people and draw the looks, dirty or not. It's an image thing and it turns the nicest people into jerks when they do that stuff.

 

HDs ARE changing technology wise though. I mentioned earlier the EFI on some of them is programmable, a shame more cars aren't that way! I don't know if HD is sharing the code or if people are cracking it like they had to do with the GMs and JDM stuff though. Sure would be nice to be able to order up an intake and exhaust and have it come with it's own computer program to tune it right.... HDs are a love hate thing I guess. I don't really much like them but can admire some of the styling. I don't want to own one but then I don't think I'll ever own a bike anyway. In this area it's suicide with the clueless idiots we've got on the road...

[DavyZ]

Some observations:

 

Many Harleys have those straight pipes (drag pipes?) that are really loud and will rattle your fillings as they pass by. Yes, I agree that is annoying, but I have to tell you that there are others which have slightly different pipes (still vocal I can tell you) but not deafening like those straight through ones.

 

I just got back from Hot August Nights in Reno, NV today and the hot cars there were a little on the loud side. There were plenty of Harleys to match too.

 

Might I suggest that if we vent in the forum, lets be careful to not step too heavily on some precious toes...especially big hairy ones inside steel tipped boots

 

Davy

[pparaska]

Davy, all. Sorry if my post was upsetting. But these observations are not just my own. My wife being a crab in the morning because the inconsiderate HD persons in the neighborhood decided to put loud pipes on AND leave at 6 AM and wake her up is a very real thing, Big hairy steel tip boot toes or not.

[Guest Anonymous]

I think we'll have to kindly agree to disagree when it comes to bikes, thats cool, not a problem.

 

Lone

[pparaska]

Lone, bud. Just because I have a problem with some of the HD people around here doesn't mean I paint all HD people with the same brush. Let's just say I've had my fill of SOME arrogant HD riders and their self-righteous attitude about loud pipes. That's fine if they lived in the middle of nowhere or didn't crank them up when most people are trying to sleep.

 

Sorry if I ruffled any feathers. This is a daily bother for my family.

[DavyZ]

Pete, sorry to hear that you and your family are so pointlessly bothered by the rumble of bikes past your house.

 

I have gotten used to noise since I live within a short distance of the freeway, and the only thing that seems to wake me in the morning (besides the kids) is the garbage man! Those guys are loud! But thankfully, this is only once a month.

 

Davy

 

[ August 05, 2001: Message edited by: DavyZ ]

[Guest Anonymous]

Did I start this...OPPS! I did like Harley's before the yuppy crowd got ahold of 'em. Probably saved HD but now lots of ppl that rarely ride at all got em for fashion. Some of the recent owners couldn't find the primary chain if you put a gun to their head! LoneHDRider do you like the V&H Shotgun pipes? I mean they take the edge off and still look straight. Sport bikes have their imbicles too, as we all know. They embarrass me to no end. But when I ride in the TX Hill Country they usually fall by the wayside! Come to think of it there are idiots into ALL forms of vehicles. But from what I read here as a new member in HybridZ our group seems a little above that. *Rodney King* sob "can't we all get along"

 

[ August 06, 2001: Message edited by: PARAGOD ]

[Kevin Shasteen]

Now see, this is why I live in the boonies. I'm so far away from the beaten path you'ld have to get lost a dozen times & then accidently stumble into my 1/4 mile driveway before you found where I lived.

 

The only noise problem I have is after a hard rain...the bubba's & their 4WD'ers come out to a nearby "Black Gumbo" road that really presents a "Challenge" to any red blooded 4WD'er...so for a few hours (always after 10pm) you can hear their engines racing while attempting "to not get stuck" slightly annoying...but I'll live w/that as opposed to the loud exhaust bikers anyday. (I still like the HD...probably wont ever own one-but like them anyway).

 

Some people who visit have found it hard sleeping at night due to the noisey crickets, frogs & coyotes howling...(Shoot, that's all music to my ears & puts me in Na-Na land). Except for the "Whipper'Wills" (sp?) I have litterally pulled an Elmer Fud & chased those "Nocturnal" birds througout the nights-& into the wee hours of the mornings before finally getting a "kill". The Whipper'Will begin their territorial/mating call at dusk & continue all thruout the night. They triangulate (believe me-I know them well from hunting them down) & have almost been pushed to the point of purchasing night vision so I could hunt them down "quicker". For now, the area is safe & considered a "Whipper'Will Free Zone"; till next season. I HATE WHIPPER'WILLS!!!

 

I will agree that there is one thing I cant stand...& that is to be awakened by inconsiderate people...if its an accident "So Be It" but if its from "inconsiderateness" then is quite annoying!

 

Kevin,

(Yea,Still an Inliner)