Guest Anonymous Posted August 25, 2001 Share Posted August 25, 2001 ok guys, im in need of a "EFI for dummies " book....i was trying to find a nice adjustable FI system for a 400 (fairly built) chevy...from the limited knowledge i have it looks like Holley has a nice system out, but was wondering if any of you FI Guru's know of a better system out there or if its feasable to scratch build a FI system that would be better...any and all comments are welcome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted August 26, 2001 Share Posted August 26, 2001 ok guys i was reading on that SDS system and it seems like the best one out there as far as adjustability goes...my only problem is im going from carb to EFI and i need to make everything from scratch,and need to make sure i get everything i need....i think i may wait till i get the thing back on the road first then ill get back to the SDS thing...but its better than the pro-flo and the holley efi systems by far.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted August 28, 2001 Share Posted August 28, 2001 Electromotive tech II . Three will be out soon . You cannot beat it for control. http://www.electromotive-inc.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted August 28, 2001 Share Posted August 28, 2001 Your manifold design will play a big part in performance, etc. I went with the Haltech E6K coupled to a TPIS MiniRam 2 with RC Engineering injectors, the new TEC-II wasn't close to being on the market yet. Tuner-shop friends say Accel's DFI is also a good choice. Owen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted August 28, 2001 Share Posted August 28, 2001 well guys thanks for the input....i was looking at the kit from www.force-efi.com and going for the haltech ecm, i was going to call and see if they would substitute larger injectors than the 30lb/hr for maybe some 42's......but other than that it sounds as though the kit comes complete with everything i need to change over right to EFI....(for that price it better....lol) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted August 28, 2001 Share Posted August 28, 2001 Hrm, off th etop of my head there's DFI - both old and new, Motec ($$), Haltech, Holley, FelPro (nice!), Electromotive (I'll believe the new Tec II when I see it), SDS, Edelbrock's setup, using an OEM ECU w/software, SpeedPro which might be Mustang only and might have been renamed, and probably a bunch I've forgotten. My thoughts on some of them -> Haltech I don't much like because they've seemed to lag behind for so long. Felpro I think I really like - wide band O2 is a nice option and several tuners have commented on it's abilities. TEC looks good on paper including wide band O2 and some neat software but a learning curve - it's datalogging is nice as is it's graphing. Is Electromotive finally selling wiring harnesses at a reasonable cost? I like SDS for it's simplicity and lack of laptop need, I don't know much about it but it looks good if you don't wish to tinker. DFI's old style I don't much like as it's software is dated and it's datalogging slow - I've used this and have one in the garage with a Mustang jumper harness. An EEC-IV is on the Mustang now. The NEW DFI is looking pretty sweet though, I'd like to know more about it's software. Holly and Edelbrock are okay for stock type motors but lack much flexability IMO but I wouldn't mind learning more about them. Oh, Motec is just way too expensive - it's hard core race car stuff with individual cylinder fueling. Actually, a FelPro or high end DFI can do that too and possibly the TEC series but it's usually an additional cost option and is big bux - NOT needed by most. Overall I'm not sure which I'd pick for myself. However if you're not real "up" on EFI I'd look VERY closely at SDS. Sure, it lacks some high end features like datalogging but it's "good enough" for some pretty fast cars and it's not super expensive. I'm considering it myself even though Electromotive is literally just blocks from my home Sometimes not having as many knobs to twiddle is a "good thing" as it keeps things running better (lol). Plumbing for most all of them will cost about the same BTW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted August 28, 2001 Share Posted August 28, 2001 The best book I've found on the basics of EFI is: Bosch Fuel Injection & Engine Managment Charles O. Probst, SAE Robert Bently Publishers Time and time again I refer back to this book to solve problems or answer questions. [ August 27, 2001: Message edited by: johnc ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Shasteen Posted August 28, 2001 Share Posted August 28, 2001 quote: Originally posted by johnc: ..,Bosch Fuel Injection & Engine Managment by Charles O. Probst, SAE Robert Bently Publishers.., This is the same book I bought that I feel realy opened my eyes & as fun (complicated) as EFI may seem at times, this book really explains EFI in a manner a novice can understand it. I've got other EFI books, but this one IMO is really worth the money if you are looking into attempting to understand EFI. Kevin, (Yea,Still an Inliner) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted August 28, 2001 Share Posted August 28, 2001 A word on the Haltech, full semi-sequential fuel injection is not possible. Don't know why, that's what the manual says. Distributor-less is possible, but I don't remember if fully or not. For semi-sequential you'll need 2 inputs, home and trigger. A good MSD dizzy has both of these, but the dang thing was too tall! The other option would be crank disk sensor + dizzy sensor. I may do this later if I ever get my car started. If anyone wants to check out my manual, I can fax somepages. Owen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modern Motorsports Ltd Posted August 28, 2001 Share Posted August 28, 2001 "back to the SDS thing...but its better than the pro-flo and the holley efi systems by far" I'd enjoy hearing the results of your research, pros of SDS vs. Holley/Proflo etc (some diehard electronic guys have really trashed Holley as they 'bought' the commander system and they feel tech support will be poor, just passing it on). I've only heard mostly opinions to date with little actual experience with them. this guy logged TONS of data/pretty hardcore in fact http://www.sonic.net/~mikebr/main.html FWIW, I'm not up on the tech but some wizards datalog with whatever setup with their own input/logging system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted August 28, 2001 Share Posted August 28, 2001 A bunch of guys are trashing the Holley Commander ECU, which goes exact opposite of those few articles that have been written about it. On paper the unit is full of features and looks like a no nrainer purchase. I have e-mailed Holley and asked for some more info and have gotten some info, but mostly from their marketing folks. I'm waiting until December/ January timeframe to purchase my computer and Harness, as I hope more data will be available by then. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted August 28, 2001 Share Posted August 28, 2001 I'm running a Force System and the man in charge there is Rob Koeple, I probably drove him crazy before and after I bought his BB unit and he was nice to me the whole experience. I say experience because at the time about 5 or 6 years ago when I purchased the unit I had never sat in front of a computer. He guided me through the whole process graciously. I had to trade in the origional injectors he sent for larger ones because of bad information I had given him. If you call him you can tell him what you are trying to achieve and he will guide you with suggestions. A great guy to do business with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted August 29, 2001 Share Posted August 29, 2001 Tec II has been out for a couple years . It is the III that is forever coming out .WHO NEEDS IT. II does it all. I'm not planning on getting my smallblock too past 12,000 rpm's Been on my car for 8 months .Dyno it forget it. Life is easy. The shop I use has a 9 sec Snowmobile 275 ftlbs torque also a 4 cyl bug motor 50lb boost runs on alcohol 1000 + hp 5.3 in the 1/8 right off the trailer .ELECTROMOTIVE RULES !!Set it and forget it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted August 30, 2001 Share Posted August 30, 2001 When I turboed the Mustang, hell when I put a Paxton on it, the VERY first thing I figured out was that using an FMU or other such add-on B.S. was silly. I learned that through trial and error. I promptly began researching and learning about EFI systems, how they worked, and what could be done to modify them. I'm still waiting for some elusive vaporware to come out that will allow me to reprogram my EECIV ECU. Do I know it all? Nope but I have researched systems. What did I say that you don't agree with? I tossed out info about systems that I have researched. I didn't pass judgement on them - for the most part. I'll add the PMS unit to my list of systems that I can at least talk about just as soon as I've got upgraded firmware and the software to program it in-house. P.S. Electromotive is blocks from my home. I've seen their software and had copies of it since before they gave it away - they used to charge quite a bit of cash for it. I've seen it's graphing abilities firsthand and read their claims of it being almost "self programmable". I know a bit about their company from employees and friends who know them as well. I've toured their facility, talked to their people, and I've bought parts from them. I nearly bought their full system for the Mustang but several factors, to include their price on a wiring harness at the time (!), caused me to stop that pursuit. I knew one of Peter Ferral's techs who programmed the TEC II on several cars including someof the race cars. He spoke highly of the units but had issues with reliability and found some quirks programming them. (shrug) I no longer have contact with him - I'll believe their new setup when it's actually out the door on the street. They're making some decent claims. At least the ignition packs are no longer on top of the ECU. [ August 30, 2001: Message edited by: BLKMGK ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted August 30, 2001 Share Posted August 30, 2001 You run a DFI, yes? What do you like about it? I can probably come up with a whole list of things I did NOT like about mine! Slow CPU and dated software that's barely being supported just being two of them. I'd not buy one of the older DFI systems if I had any choice at all. Unfotunatly when I bought mine it was one of the few "affordable" systems out there and the only one that would plug into a Mustang wiring harness. Today there are plenty of other choices that are better and that's where I'd put my money. The latest DFI stuff is supposed to be incredible but most everything I've seen written up is about the older system. [ August 30, 2001: Message edited by: BLKMGK ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fast Frog Posted August 30, 2001 Share Posted August 30, 2001 (Again, done Pete!! Go ahead and delete my previous 2 posts.) I've got an older DFI setup and it works great for me cause I'm not a very good computer guy and I don't have a need for data logging. I'd have to ditto the comments of Clint78Z. BTW, Clint used my Cal-Map disc, that was programmed for my L28 turbo setup , as a start up disc. I had actually programmed a lot of the disc myself with an old IBM 386 lap top. [ August 30, 2001: Message edited by: Fast Frog ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted August 30, 2001 Share Posted August 30, 2001 Allright, shall we try to get this back to the question at hand? I'll try for a sort of "EFI for dummies" here. Everyone else feel free to jump in with correctionsquestions on this data dump - this is from memory after all and mine sux. So do my typing skills 400SBC and a person who's new to EFI, yes? To me that means you'll want something that can be easily programmed or comes with tools to make programming it easier. You've mentioned the Holley system as being one you've looked at. I seem to recall that the Holley system comes with it's own intake - yes? Or is this their TBI setup? If it's a port injection system that they provide the intake for you'll have to ask yourself if the intake it comes with will support your needs. If it's the TBI setup then you lose some of the advantages you'd get with port injection but can run your own intake and probably lower fuel pressures as well - possibly no return line which might be a plus for you. I'll ASSume port injection for a moment and give you some basics as I understand them so that you can maybe understand what the terms are when you look at various systems. 1st thing is how the injectors fire. Batch or sequential. There's also a weird bank fire type but I'm not sure who's using that or why you'd want it. Sequential injection is usually thought of as "better". It provides a little more torque, possibly some HP, a better idle, and it provides lower emissions. It also means you have to have some sort of position sensor so the ECU knows where cylinder #1 is. The older DFI system I've used was batch fire only - their newer stuff can do both. For simplicities sake you'll probably be happier with batch firing. Batch firing fires all injectors once per stroke, sequential fires them each in turn. Bank fire does one bank then the other. Clear as mud? 2nd - closed loop. This is where the ECU uses a sensor to read exhaust gas and adjust the fueling. OEMs use one or more O2 sensors per side but most of the aftermarket units use just one. When you're not WOT the ECU can runclosed loop and adjust the fuel to give you better MPG. This is a very good thing and can really help! SOME systems like the FelPro and TEC setups can actually allow you to set tables with target A/F ratios. Correction: CalMap 2K for their newer GEN VII box can also do this. You then make a pass or two and it will "self program". To do this right you need a wideband O2 sensor since most OEM sensors are tuned for a particular range and can't read well outside of that range. This adds cost but if there's no place near you that can tune I'd consider it. This is NOT something you'd leave setup this way all the time as a read O2 might really screw things up. In fact I think the FelPro wide band O2 isn't supposed to be left in. Electromotive has been advertising something like this for awhile and they may try to make it work with a standard O2. Injectors. There are generally two families. High impedance and low. I get them confused so someone else will have to help but one family has better response than the other. This is important for idle, especially when running big injectors on a high horse motor. If you run the slower injectors the hysterysis (sp?!) in the injector will prevent it from opening properly at really low speeds. In other words - if an injector takes .25milliseconds to open and .25 to close and you need .4 to get a good idle it will never openclose properly and you'll get a drip of fuel instead of a spray - the result is a poor idle. This is worse in batch fire setups where all injectors fire at once. Some other sensorsequipment to know about: Water temp, tells the ECU when the car is warming up and allows you to set the idle higher, mixture richer, etc. etc. Air temp, cooler air has more oxygen - this sensor allows you to lean the fuel if the air is hot or richen it up if cool. You want this to get a consistant reading so positioning it can be important. Some folks trick OEM systems into running richer by putting this further from the intake in a cooler air stream - I hate tricks like that (sigh). MAP sensor - Manifold Air Pressure. This tells the ECU the vacuum in the intake or pressure if it's running boost. Usually measured in BAR a single BAR MAP would be for a naturally aspirated motor. 2 bar would be for an engine running up to 14.7lbs of boost, 3bar etc goes up from there. This sensor is used to INFER the amount of air going into the motor. Using some math and injector tables you program along with the O2 the ECU figures out fueling. MAF - Mass AirFlow (?). These meters directly measure the air moving into the system. Several ways to do it but the least restrictive is with a hot wire placed in the air stream. Amount of voltage required to keep the wire at a specific temp determines airflow. MOST aftermarket systems do NOT use this sensor, I believe that Electromotive can (or used to) allow you to use this and Motec may as well. IF you were to use an OEM ECU you could also use this. I like MAF but it also creates plumbing issues. Chances are you won't want this. TPS - Throttle Position Sensor. This tells the ECU when you've got your foot in it It will also tell the ECU when you've let off the gas. Some systems will read this ad turn off the injectors when it realizes you are decellerating. Ide Air Motor - not really a sensor but it's important. This is usually a servo motor and it bypasses air aorund the throttle blades. This is done to maintain idle, warm the car with a higher idle, and kick in for things like the A/C compressor running. Many systems I've seen use the GM unit - my DFI did on the Mustang. Knock sensor - used to detect knock duh! Screwed into the block this is a piezo microphone tuned to listen to specific frequencies. I've only ever seen the GM unit used for this. Sometimes it's too sensitive and will pull out timing in the upper parts of the RPM band as it falses on valvetrain noise. Some ECUs allow you to turn it off past a certain RPM and I think most allow you to control how much it takes out per "knock", how fast it "recovers" after knock stops, and max amount taken out. Note that many EFI systems don't offer this or offer it as an option. I think that's it for sensors. Obviously the ECU needs a tach input too. Those few sensors are all that the ECU needs in order to know what's going on with the motor. Software - some software is pretty complicated, some software tries to draw analogies with carburators to ease tuning for folks who understand them. Things like accelerator pump and whatnot are used to help things along. Helpful software packages will have "wizards" that ask you questions about your motor and injectors in order to come up with a "close enough" set of tables. Tables - generally the ECU software will have a spark table, a fuel table, warm up table (fuel), and some sort of table based on the TPS for accelerator pump shot. These are lookup tables and when they're pretty close to correct the car runs great. Screw them up and it will pump black smoke, melt down, or refuse to start. I've seen two of the three but never melted one down - yet. Note that some newer systems like the TEC will allow you, with the correct options, to setup target A/F ratios in a table and then drive the car which allows the computer to reset things in other tables to hit those targets. In effect it's self programming! DFI's older software will show you realtime which fuel table "cell" it's in, the milliseconds of injector being used, and the amount of "adjustment" the ECU is having to make in order to his Stoich while running closed loop. It won't change the cell itself and it's hard to tune other than in a fairly narrow band using this feature. Datalogging then becomes important! Most of the other inputs to the ECU simply modify what's in the base fuel or spark tables. Getting those "right" is important and can be a laborious process. Tools to generate them, other people's maps, and dyno time all help. OEMs spend millions getting these "right" for production cars. Datalogging - this is a process where you record the data coming from the engine sensors for later examination. You want as much data as you can get a quickly as possible from as many sensors as possible. Some ECUs are faster thna others CPU wise and can handle spitting out more sensor data than others. My older DFI was limited to I THINK 6 or so. It could do "fast" logging for 60 seconds or slower logging continuosly to a laptop. "Fast" logging would still show me gaps where RPM climbed 700-1000 between data points. That didn't help me much. when looking at ECUs that datalog try to find out how fast it logs and how many inputs it can log at once. also find out if the software offers graphing of the data. Electromotive's software does and it's awesome! With the DFI I often found myself trying to use Excel to graph a .5volt TPS sensor against a 6K RPM reading along with an 80degree MAF reading and millisecond injector pulses. It wasn't easy getting data out that I could use Whew! Note that some systms don't even use a computer. SDS is a biggie here, I think Edelbrock has one, I think Holley's TBI is this way. Takes lot's of gizmos off your hands but also takes away easy data logging and fine tuning ability. IMO if you're not a computer geek then not having to purchase a laptop is a plus as is losing some of the other levers and knobs to twiddle. I get the distinct impression, having read info from others, that SDS offers GOOD support, I'm NOT sure the same could be said of the bigger companies so bear that in mind. Speaking of support - do you have any dyno shops or tuners in your area? I didn't when I did my car years ago and let me tell you it was hell! My base maps from Duttweiler were WAY rich and it took me forever to get my car to where I mostly could enjoy it. At the time folks in my area were yanking EFI for carbs and wante dme to do the same (sigh). IF you've got a shop in your area SERIOUSLY consider speaking to them BEFORE you make a purchase. Get their hands on experience and find out what system they're comfortable with! If they love the DFI then despite what some like myself might call downfalls consider buying one. Having a dyno to tune on is a big help but driveability will almost always ave to be dne on the street. If they've done a motor like yours they can give you a BIG headstart if you choose a system they're familiar with. Ask around with friends too - make sure the shop knows what they're doing. In Cali there ae probably zillions of such shops. Don't shop just on price for the ECU or the tuning. Realize that sometimes simpler is better. The Motec ECU can do some incredible things for instance but it's pricey and many of it's features you won't need. Allright, I'm done. I think. Probably my longest post ever - hope it takes it! I've probably made some errors, certainly some typos and spello's (shrug). I realize I've rambled too but kripes where do you start on this subject? Almost easier to talk in person and explain things. Hope I've not made this decision ever harder with too much info. We need a good EFI FAQ maybe? Or a site to point folks too? I'm not typing this more thn once but I'll edit it if people spot errors... [ August 30, 2001: Message edited by: BLKMGK ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted August 30, 2001 Share Posted August 30, 2001 Gack, three posts while I wrote that thing. I've got a pinout for the DFI here somewhere, not much of a wiring diagram I'm afraid. It CAN use a cheap laptop - it's DOS based, mine was a 286 12mhz luggable Forgot the NOS option, yeah that's cool. Wideband O2? That wasn't available for mine but I know it's on the new ones - which version are you using? I just checked their site and all the info I see is for the new GEN VII system rather than the older box. Calmap 2K looks nice tho' Hrm, most of the fast cars I've heard of running DFI are using the newer system. Are there any still using the older cheaper box? What's the GEN VII run pricewise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clint78z Posted August 30, 2001 Share Posted August 30, 2001 Er I guess I shouldn't be defending the DFI so heavily, since it hasn't started my car yet. However I payed $350 for it and $125 for software, which makes up for a whole lot. I have the old box Spark/Fuel managment, it has some limitations but it is good enough for me. For example if you chose wideband O2, you lose NOS control capability. Fuel maps are not very interchangable from car to car on a MAP controlled system, due to different intake piping, throttle bodies, turbos. You really need dyno and road time to get it right. The DFI is just almost as easy to tune as the SDS, and it can also log some numbers for you. The new DFI box is very nice, and has excellent data logging. I don't quite see why the DFI gets the bummed wrap, and yet SDS is praised so much. The DFI has more options, and gives better fuel control. SDS does have way better support, Accel is pretty poor that way. The reason why all the fast racers use new equipment is they have lots of $$. And they are willing to pay for the few extra options. There were several 8 sec buicks with the old DFI, it has proven performance just a bit old that's all. Any EFI guy should look at this it is some good reading http://www.mrgasket.com/ftp/pdf/EMIC.pdf [ August 30, 2001: Message edited by: clint78z ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted August 30, 2001 Share Posted August 30, 2001 I would argue that he newer box has more than a few extra options I think they redid the whole shebang! I believe the FelPro box may have been designed by an Ex-DFI guy who got frustrated with Accell and struck out on his own. I know one of the newer boxes was done by "that guy". The older box wasn't much different than a late 80's GM OEM box that could be programmed. Yes, Duttweiler was one of those racers and is the guy I bought my box from. I can only imagine how much tuning time he put into it! He's great to talk to on the phone and very knowledgable. They almost had the Fod idle motor working there fo awhile but gave up - seems it would occasionally spike for no reason at all - not cool in traffic! Do realize that tuning for WOT is much easier then tuning for driveability. If you've got FastFrog's base to start with you are WAY ahead. The base I started with from Duttweiler had to be leaned out over 40% to even start the car. I ended up nearly creating maps from scratch with nearly zero support. Frustrating is a good word for it. Ayway, once you're running it should do what you want. It's NOT a terrible box if you get it at a good price but if I had to buy one new it wouldn't be my first choice. I believe SDS is getting good reviews mostly because it's so dirt simple and it's reasonably priced. I played heck getting my system to where I wanted it for the street. I prayed for the day someone would release a package that would let me modify the EEC since it had Ford's zillions in tuning driveability already done - this is why I like the LT1-Edit software so much. Once running you may find that all of the various options in the DFI software can be confusing. The EMIC PDF you linked IS a must read, heck even if you don't have a DFI it should be read if it's the same thing I've got at home. The EMIC manual I had explained EFI as well as the DFI software. You used to have to goto class to get it I think, mine was backdoored form a DFI employee I managed to meet online. Boy did that sucker help! Go it over a year after I'd been tuning on my car though Anyway, keep us posted on your getting it up and running. I was lucky enough to get a jumper for my stock harness... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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