Electromotive Work-Alike Ignition?

[BLKMGK]

Here's how LaRocca did one of th elast cars that was taken up there... First pull was to 4K with a wide band O2 on it. Hit 4K and shut the car down, burned a chip. Put chip in car made 3/4 pull picking up something like 50 HP. Shut car down, look at data logs, burn another chip. Do a full power pass, read data logs, burn another chip, do a full power pull. I don't recall the numbers on the first pull but in the end it was making over 600RWHP and was up 100HP from the first pull. Car is street driven, no problems.

 

So, how did he do it? Well, he's seen about a zillion blown 4.6 Cobra motors. He pulled a chip off the shelf that worked for the last car that had a close combo. He did a pull, saw where it was lean or rich, and made changes.

 

So did the other guy really do just 4 pulls and fill in all the cells? Nah, he developed a program over who knows how many pulls on who knows how many cars. Over time he refined the program for each car until he knew where changes needed to be made. Any good programmer has a toolbox of software "tools" much the same way that any good ECU tuner has a toolbox full of programs from various combos.

 

At least one member here has given another member a program that worked on THEIR car with much the same effect. It won't be "perfect" but it'll be close and cut the tuning time down from many hours to only a few hours. Could still more power be made? Probably if you wanted to spend days getting it but if the drivability is good and the power is good why would you want to put it on the edge?

 

Does that make sense? BTW - my friend's out here have heard of JR. Did he recently setup that shop or move? Wasn't sure if that was a guy that was out closer my way that recently moved or not.

[240Z Turbo]

Now we are talking apples and oranges. I don't doubt that a shop doing corvettes can't just take a chip and mod it from experience for other corvettes. It is what JWT does all the time for people who buy their computer and never come to the shop. It is also what the GN guys do who order chips. I agree, for 1 particular car and type of setup you can grab an old program and may only require minor changes. However, this is completely different from me bringing my TT L setup to him where he has no database of programs and due to head design and other engine differences he can't just easily create a file. In this case there is no way to make 3-4 runs to determine any type of optimal program. I know TimZ is holding back from also commenting on this, but I think those of use who have alot of experience know the truth about what it takes. Even when I change my own setup it require substatial changes to the program. OK, I promise not to post again on this thread!

[Guest Anonymous]

My car was tuned only on the Dyno never touched the street 334 hp at the crank stock LT1 .There are no drivability problems, stumbles ,part throttle issues ,not a thing.Drove it home 2 hours On the Beltway + 301 alot of stop + go . Having never touched the street Just being built from ground up everything First run ever! They have been tuning Electromotive from the get go Had a dynotech dyno for as long as I can remember. Experience counts .If all you do is tuning then it does not take Rocket Science .You get what you pay for . I think too Tune For as long as it takes up too a day Is 500.00 One pull 75.00 they specialize in Mustangs >2 paxtons + nitous 7's in the 1/4 Electromotive dyno tuned mustang gt full body . .How many Shops do you know that tune Snowmobiles with Tech II ? Either you know what you r doing or you don't enough said .You get what you pay for in this world .NOTHING IS FREE .I broke a half- shaft gotta goto work on the car cya .

[BLKMGK]

Yep, experience counts and it's not just for the ability to know what you're doing. Want to bet he's got a "toolbox full of disksmaps with baselines that are pretty close for 90% of the cars that come in the door? This is probably why he was able to nail driveability so easily on your car - he had the maps for a well tuned car squirreled away and was able to apply them to your setup. This is, again, why I like the idea of tuning from some sort of baseline like an OEM ECU would be. Ths is also why I've mentioned in other threads that it's a good idea to find out what system(s) your local shop is familier with. They might like a system that's not rated "the best" based on features etc. but if they've got maps for it and know how to work around "issues" then obviously going with a system they've never seen before is a bad idea

 

I'll also echo what another said - we're not doubting or knocking anyone. Heck, my friend's shop builds motors and cars all day long but they send their EEC cars to LaRocca in NJ to tune because they recognize that he does the job better and has the experience (and maps for every combo you're likely to see!). If this guy knows Electromotive and that's the way I end up going I'll give them a call too. (shrug) Nice to know someone sort of local can offer this service. Electromotive is just up the street from me but word around town is they can't tune very well Their chassis dyno only goes to 500HP last I heard too. Hrm, I WOULD like some more details on the WINTEC shortfalls though. What exactly is to be avoided? I like the Windows stuff darn it....

 

[ September 04, 2001: Message edited by: BLKMGK ]

[Guest Anonymous]

Yes that f-ing laptop has more stored in it than I care too say .All I said If you have a good starting base 3or 4 pulls .Read back do the math .If you been Dyno tuning for ten years or so then yes you have prior knowledge .I'm sure if he's done 1 he's done a hundred fuelie smallblocks so a base is there.Not too mention Porsche, Volvo,Specialize in God damn mustangs ,Volkswagons ,Snowmobiles,Datsuns,Panterra's ,Lamborgini's,ETC .ALL with Electromotive some Blown Some Nitrous They stopped everything but custom work when they moved too colonial beach.Used too be in rockville .Yes they use other systems too just prefer electromotive .Like I tell My Customers Sure you can change your watch battery yourself.But when you bring it too me too shut or you broke the XTal or stem Did you really save the money + time doing it yourself ? EXPERIENCE COUNTS PERIOD .

[Guest Anonymous]

Ooh yea with the wintech tell me your Questions BLKMGK I will ask.He never liked it said its pretty .Ohh guys I forgot he does boats too.I'm also tired of whining here Go street tune your car while I enjoy breakin parts on mine

[SuperDan]

Thanks for keeping it civil guys.

[240Z Turbo]

OK, so I broke my promise!

 

quote

Go street tune your car while I enjoy breakin parts on mine

 

Oh yea, you made 330hp @ crank. CHUCKLE! I remember when my 1st turbo setup wasn't making much power either. Of course, that was about 3.5 years ago. Send me an e-mail and I will give you some advice on how to make more power. BTW, my 2.5hrs of street tuning netted a 12.2@121 on my old..old..old setup. Hey TimZ, did you not get over 375hp@wheels by street tuning alone? You Chevie guys are always so funny!

[TimZ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by 240Z Turbo:

Hey TimZ, did you not get over 375hp@wheels by street tuning alone?

---

 

Yes, this is true...

 

Nice thing was that I didn't have to pay anybody anything to tune my engine, and I knew what I had when I was done. Granted, I had to spend some time learning how to tune, but I didn't see this as a negative.

...Still don't.

[BLKMGK]

Oy, when did anyone say that dyno tuning and street tuning are mutally exclusive?! I tuned my DFI myself with no dyno but it took TIME and I had ZERO assistance from anyone. Given a choice I'd have had a dyno tune it and then tinkered from there myself - except there weren't any dynos around my area! Hell the twits around here wanted me to put a CARB on it! Nothing at all wrong with learning how to tune the silly thing yourself - why buy a programmable EFI system and NOT learn? IMO they aren't set and forget - there's always hiccups in the driveability or little areas that need to be tinkered with. Why do these two methods have to be mutually exclusive? For that matter, if you're making good power now on your setup what makes you think a day with a dyno wouldn't yield more?

 

Hrm, and I for one am not a "chevy guy" and see no need to call anyone names. We've never had the silly little marque bashing here that other boards suffer, let's not start it now. Make power your way, other people will do what they want. 330+ from a stock LT1 isn't too shabby. Throw a turbo on it and stand back!

 

Frankly, I'd much rather have you tell me why you like the TEC, what makes it "good", what pitfalls to watch out for (like gorunding which I've heard before), some tuning tips, and why I should consider that unit over a new gen DFI or FelPro.

 

It seems I've just won a Victor Jr. off E-Bay for a whopping $90 an I'm going to have it setup for EFI. I'm not in a hurry but I'd like to figure out what I'll use for an ECU in the future. Electromotive is just up the street from my home but I swear I either find folks that love them or hate them. Convince me to buy their ECU and you can help me tune it I'll have access to a friend's dyno and the street (shrug). I had a hell of time trying to learn how to program my DFI by myself and am willing to listen to someone who can explain how this all works better than the silly EMIC manual did. Why has this turned into an argument?!

[Guest Anonymous]

Tim Z how did you know you had 375@rear wheels .Phsyic powers? Or did you USE A DYNO ? R u Proud of that ? CAR COST ME 750.00 . I spent 1400 on my motor + trans how much did you spend ?My motor is stock ; Bone stock and has 334@crank 200 something @rear wheels 50hp over GM's rating . Ps: I 'm a friend cost me 350.00 for tuning . A twin turbo jag with power problems came down from upper NY .He left smiling that same afternoon.Maybe you should spend your money more wisely and take a long drive.I bet I haven't put a 1/5 th of the money you put in your driveline . The most I spent was on the unit 1800.00 for all .Also my WOMAN doesn't bitch that I'm always working on the car .I have more free time too spend up her ass .Anytime I want I'll grab my solid roller 383 out of my truck and put out better #s than you.My old toy CHEVROLET Without spending any more money.

[Guest Anonymous]

Cerberus,

 

As an innocent bystander in this I would like to say one thing: cool it. When did the cost of power all of a sudden become the topic? Who cares how someone gets power or how much they paid for it. Everyone is glad you are happy with your $1800 car. Some folks wouldn't be (I am one of them). Some of us want V8s, others want inlines. Some like NA for simplicity sake and some like turbo. Some will do whatever it takes to get a few more horsepower. Heck, some of us just like to read and hope that we get our project finished one day

TimZ has a beautiful car. Personally, I like it and plan to turbo my own L6. Sure, I have thought about a V8 but just want an L6. Period. There will always be someone faster and I don't care.

So, I respectfully ask that you give us your experience minus the chip on your shoulder. We don't need to be impressed and I, for one, am not.

[pparaska]

Clean it up guys - leave the attitudes at the door and be civil - or LEAVE.

 

There's a whole lot of slapping of one's member on the table and saying it's the biggest going on here.

 

This place isn't about self-ego-stroking. It's about learning and sharing info. If you're smarter or have more experience in an area than the rest of us, then share but don't come off like you're better than the rest of us.

 

Sorry for the lecture, but this is getting OLD.

 

[ September 06, 2001: Message edited by: pparaska ]

[240Z Turbo]

Cerberus, don't hate me because I'm beautiful. I am not trying to start a squable with you. It is true that both TimZ and myself have spent more than you, but I also have friends that use bone stock 280zxt long blocks and make 350hp@wheels all day long. I can get one of those for about $300. The initial debate was about running 3-4 dyno runs and completely tuning a motor. BTW, nobody said dyno tuning wasn't good, just not the best way to perform all the tuning.

TimZ is physic and has a part-time job on the physic friends network....How did you know that? The point was that without the use of dyno tuning he extracted 375hp@wheels and once strapped down netted 391hp@wheels and 410ft/lbs@wheels. So, as you can see the dyno helped, but his ability to street tune got him pretty darn close to his potential.

Hey BLKMGK, I did not realize that calling someone a "Chevie guy" was name calling. I wouldn't be offended if someone called me a "Datsun guy!" I guess that says something. Anyway, to all I am not trying to start a fight with anyone but want people to have the facts about what it takes to tune a motor whether it be the street or dyno. In my opinion, learn to tune yourself so that you are not prey to those who do tune. Just ask Joel S. who paid Hesco(premier Electromotive tuner) $800 to have his car tuned and it still ran like ass!

 

[ September 06, 2001: Message edited by: 240Z Turbo ]

[Mikelly]

Well I'm gonna weigh in here...

 

I know this Guy JR that Cerberus is refering to. The guy IS A GOD WHEN IT COMES TO TUNING... And Jim, One of your old buddies now WORKS for JR Over in Colonial Beach. This is the Same shop Brian Mandelay and Barry Brickner were going to for a few weeks to get data for their respective builds. They went elsewhere 'cause the guy is out in the sticks and isn't quick to jump on a project, and his schedule is tight... Guy tunes some very EXOTIC cars. Cerberus may need a lesson or two in Post edicate but he is stating what I know to be fact...JR has been setting up EFI systems for two decades and pretty much guarantees your tunning sessions not to go beyond 3-4 pulls.

 

Now, from an ADMIN point of view, You guys need to tone it down PERIOD, and Cerberus isn't the only one who needs to cool it, Get it? Not everyone has the cash to dump into their projects the way some of us do and making fun of their tuning numbers is PATHETIC. KNOCK IT OFF. This is not what we are here for, and I'm a bit taken aback by some of the responses here.

 

As for the comment about Chevy guy Vs. Datsun Guy... It defenitely said something 240Z Turbo, but probably not what you intended. 240Z Turbo, you are skating on VERY thin ice. I suggest you change your tone and do it quick if you plan on playing in our sand box.

 

Mike Kelly

Administrator

 

[ September 06, 2001: Message edited by: Mikelly ]

 

[ September 06, 2001: Message edited by: Mikelly ]

[BLKMGK]

Heh, I gues I just see myself as a Ford guy or maybe just a guy that likes fast cars

 

Anyway, know a little bit about JR and I know that Brian pulled his car from that shop and why (shrug). Brian is the one who's running the new gen DFI and wants me to put on a turbo too

 

Frankly, I don't much care how someone arrives at their final tune. This is a hobby for me and if I didn't enjoy tinkering I'd be driving a scooter. Dyno or street I'd like some info on how to best setup one of these suckers and why one, in someone's opinion, might be better than another. I want to better understand the fueling, ignition, and how to arrive at the best tune. If you guys know then please share. This time around I'll have access to a dyno and while it won't be tomorrow I'm tryin to figure out what ECU is going to give me bang for the buck and not make me cry trying to tune it. the TEC is supposed to be a "different animal" where tuning is concerned because it has it's own terminology to wrap your mind around.. How long did it take you all to "get" this terminology? I'd much rather have a calm discussion on what ECUs work best, which have pitfalls, and why one might be better than another. We almost had that discussion before, can we try again?

 

It sounds like you're running L6 motors - anyone got access to V8 maps? For that matter would it make sense for one of us to host maps for others? They're not real big are they? Then we could pool the knowledge and tuning instead of bitching about how one of us arrives at working maps. RX7 guys are doing this and I'm sure others are too but I'll be darned if I can find out where (sigh). I'd be happy to host if the demand isn't sky high and the maps not huge - I can even set it up so that descriptions of mods could be tacked on - password protected if need be. Does this make sense to anyone else?

 

Hrm, maybe LT1 maps might work for me? Anyone running the new DFI or FelPro units want to toss some experience in the ring? I'm honestly open as to what ECU I wind up with but cost is going to play some part after having to toss a $1700 tranny in the dumper (sob).

[Mikelly]

Well as you know Jim, I too am searching out as much info as possible on which ECU/ software is the best way to go. I'd love a THOUGHTFUl and MATURE dialogue about which systems work, how well, how complex, and how reliable... and of course at what cost. I'm not a Ford guy, and I'm certainly not a Chevy guy. Last time I checked I was a CAR GUY and I don't have thin skin, as anyone who has met me face to face can attest. So what do you say guys... Can we continue with the original thread without whipping out our peepees to see whose is smaller?

 

Mike Kelly

Administrator

[Guest Anonymous]

Ok lookee here .A I'm not trying too piss you all off .Though I am overzealous .Sorry bout the r u physic comment .At least there is someone here that knows I'm not HIGH .As I said you call Jr. you had better be patient !! Look my motor even Impressed Jr. With the #'s he got .But alas Jr. is not Sr. and it's Sr. that does the tuning .Jr. everything else . And Mike I hope you r not refering too that hack Conrad .He is no longer with HP Works !Thank you Mike For ending the pissing contest .At least I'm not ALL WET .Someone knows I speak the truth . The shop is acctually

almost done so they might be on a better schedule .I know I came out of nowhere I'll try not too be a prick . I Learned that if someone can do it better than you and they r a good friend let them do it.Also if I wanted too know',All I have too do is ask .Quote from Sr. " 4 or 5 pulls I'm done . I guess I don't know how too do it any better ".Also I was wrong 265 @rear wheels 344.985 @ crank Just wanted right #'s up My PEE PEE is away. Also Pete I'm around the corner would like too see your ride .Also BLKMGK I hate too say this BUT FORD is their specialty ! Also WINTECH bad DOS GOOD .Also I am Thinkin of bring my moped down their .Maybe I can Get 2 HP in stead of 1.5 Also you never know who may be LURKING !

[pparaska]

Not much to see right now - engine and tranny all out and engine apart. Email me and we'll set something up - bring your Z - I want a ride!

[BLKMGK]

Conrad worked for them?! ROTFL, if that's who I think it is I'm dying. Shoot me a note offline, we'll talk. He had a big block in a Mustang? Fords are their specialty, yeah I know the shop now. I'm friends with Chris over at Excessive - Fords everywhere I almost wish I'd done a Ford swap but I'd have had to get help with fabricating mounts and really wanted to do as much myself as I could. Sometimes the 351W in my Mustang looks liek it needs a new home (lol).

 

I'd really like to know more about why they don't like the new WINTECH software. I realize the DOS stuff has been around but the WINTECH has more features - at least I thought it did. I thought I'd heard that moving maps from the DOS software to the WIN stuff caused "issues" but it's been awhile.

 

I'll reiterate thouogh - a place to put MAPs would be pretty nice if we've got enough folks running programmable ECUs willing to contribute. I'd LOVE to see us working towards learning how best to program these suckers. Wish I still had my Excel tools for the DFI...