EFI CPUs Again....

[clint78z]

The thing I would do is try to get every manual for these units, most of them are available on line. Most well tuned systems will run very close to each other as far as performance if tuned correctly. Big key options is wideband 02 and coilpacks.

 

TecII is very powerful with excellent datalogging. A slick piece if you have been tuning EFI for a long time. It is very hard to learn there are 3 settings alone just to set up the base fuel map. Software is expensive. Very precise timing control, a little overkill if you ask me.

 

The new DFI is very impressive, datalogging appears very good, and has a nice gauge mode.

 

Many people have fancy features on these that they never use. Decide what you need for a bare minimum for options and controls. Then pick the cheapest, that has a nice software interface which makes it easiest to tune.

 

Personally I don't think you could go wrong with a TecII, DFI, Felpro, Haltech.

[Mikelly]

Dan,

You're Killing me. OK, I'll bite... Send me your honest and true assesment about it, and Can you get me the same price??? (Best I could do was $850 for ECU And harness).

 

Mike Kelly

[Guest Anonymous]

Locutus get an sx pump good for 1000 hp 275.00 filter 80.00 not sure on reg .just make sure you have a big enough tank .Below 5 gals mine starves!! Lots of volume .When its low I can here it fill the lines. and complain !

[BLKMGK]

Yeah, the TEC can use the MAF but I THINK I saw something about this for the SpeedPro or another system ($$!) - I'm NOT sure so double check, might have been Motec.

 

I'm honestly not sure that the spark issue is a big dealshow stopper. How finite does it really need to be? They have a sophisticated knock sensor setup if I recall - more sophisticated than others in that you can modify more parameters (I think). I, like others, am really waiting for their next generation of equipment!

 

As to the MAF vs MAP on the Mustangs - don't let that bother you too much. MAP systems infer the airflow using lookup tables bsed on known engine parameters, MAF sensor based systems are more flexible because they actually measure the airflow. IF you were to modify the lookup table that a Mustang MAP system was using it would run as well as the MAF on a modified motor. MAF sensors are expensive and can be a restriction - they can be fragile too. Having said that, I DO believe that MAF systems are superior since infering anything seems silly and more complicated to me (shrug). A correctly setup MAP sensed system should run just as well though so don't get too hung up on it IMO. Nice to have that option though!

 

Now, their waste spark idea seems interesting to me! I'm not sure that it really does much but it can't hurt can it? Does the Buick also fire waste spark? Which system did they get EPA certified? Vector something or other or was it a Jeep or Neon system? Are they now giving away the DOS software too, anyone know? How well does some of their "self programming" stuff work. They've yet to send me ANYTHING on their new hardware despite my requests

[SuperDan]

quote

Dan I was wondering what fuel pump you are using for your TPI setup.

Im useing the one that JTR recommends in their TPI swappers manual, it's the stock 280Z pump.

I think it's good to ~350hp.

The really nice thing about it is if you can get one with the stock isolator it's super quiet, I cannot hear it running at all

quote

The other question I have is on the Holley Commander 950, does it use your MAF or what does it do in place of that. I have a 1990 TPI and I believe you said in another post yours is a 1989 so I have a MAP sensor opposed to your MAF but the 950 is for 85-92 I am trying to figure out how they make it so broad and it still work correctly with your current equipment. Did they provide all new sensors or did you use the OEM sensors? TPI is all new to me and I have lots of questions as I am working towards getting my engine back together and running.

I have a 87, yup it's a MAF system.

The Holley setup converts it to a MAP sensor and includes the MAP sensor and a new 3 wire O2 sensor.

You use your own OEM TPS, IAC, MAT, ECT etc sensors and it's basicly a plug in deal.

Also on mine, it eliminated the oil presure switch, cold start injector and sensor.

Fire away if you have anymore questions

 

Dan

 

[ September 19, 2001: Message edited by: SuperDan ]

[BLKMGK]

Cerberus - those pumps are LOUD. I've got the Paxton (blue) version on my Mustang. If you think a Holley Blue is loud try one of those suckers How have you isolated yours to keep from being driven from the car?! Big pumps like that can sometimes overheat too. Many of them aren't rated for constant duty either so you've got to be caeful when selecting one. That's one of the advantages of an OEM style pump (shrug). Weldon and SX pumps are serious duty stuff...

[clint78z]

quote:

---

Originally posted by TimZ:

The base fuel map needs two points, not three. Even if it was three, how much simpler does it need to be? We are down to 'idle jet', 'main jet' in the non-EFI equivalents here. I just don't see how this is a major concern.

 

As far as the other required settings, as I have stated NUMEROUS times before (frustration setting in), the basic settings needed to make the cars run are fairly similar across the board. What is it really that makes everyone think that this is harder to learn? Admittedly, I don't have tons of experience with the other systems, but I have yet to see anything that makes me beleive that the others are appreciably easier.

 

A good argument for the more precise timing control is that it allows much better control when the engine is changing speeds rapidly (as high power engines tend to do

).

 

As far as the WinTEC software being better of worse than the the DOS based stuff, I haven't actually seen any credible evidence one way or the other. Of the people that are actually using it, I have not seen alot of evidence to support this. As far as I'm concerned, the jury is still out on this one.

 

I am currently getting ready to convert over to the WinTEC2 chip, and will report back if I find problems. I will say that I'm not terribly impressed with the Windows software, but my main complaint so far is that it's useability is not as much better as I would expect when going from the DOS-based software to the Windows environment.

---

 

Mabey I proved my own point with my stupidity, talk with a person who has sucessfully tuned the system.

 

TimZ I though the base fuel consisted of setting IOT, TOG, then a VE table to make base fuel calculations. Then there is TPS and Map change enrichment on top of that. Could you briefly describe how you set up a fuel map on a Tec II.

 

On the old Accel DFI it has a base fuel map rpm vs load. Basically you get info from the O2 sensor if you are lean or rich at a certain load and rpm point, then you simply add or remove fuel at these points. A dyno certainly helps to tune this.

[Brad-ManQ45]

It was the Vector - knew I didn't have to name names....

 

I haven't even looked at their site since before hard disk crash ~ 3 mo. ago.

 

I just believe the more granularity, the easier to deal with troublesome ares.

 

Take a look at the graphic representation of some of the datamaps in the Holley literature, then image it done w/only 1/16th the # of intersections - and on a dated computer at that! For a turbocharged engine I firmly believe that due to the wider variation in manifold air pressure over a n/a engine, that this wouldn't be the best of all worlds - especially at the price they charge and enven thir software didn't look too friendly.

 

Compared to the Holley, I'd say they have their work cut out for them if they want ot keep selling hardware.

 

I don't konw if they have changed their policy about programming, but when I talked to them years ago, they would point to people whe were their distributors to get it all set up - even to just get the engine started - not even close to tuned.

 

I will have to say though that their manual was/is a great window into EFI operations.

 

I'm waiting for the next great leap, I guess, unless LT1-Edit will handle it all...

[BLKMGK]

Looked over the Holley manual tonight. Overall it looks pretty impressive and they give some pretty good instructions for tuning. However I think their datalogging and monitoring leave a little bit to be desired from what I got out of the manual. I believe I like the new "dial style" or "dashboard" type data monitors that some software features. I'd like that option anyway. Their O2 monitoring looks good and they've got many of the features that my old DFI had in what looks like an easier to use package. The ability to monitor the base map and modify(?) it while monitoring looks good. Their graphing for the stored data would drive me crazy though! The TEC method which uses varying axis in multiple panes is great becasue your're not comparing small numbers like TPS or O2 voltage with things like engine RPM on th esame axis. The Holley system doesn't look liek it buys me much more than using Excel did on the older DFI. I'd like to see how the new Gen7 and WINTEC software handle this. SpeedPro too which I seem to recall has good data review tools.

 

Dan, from what I've read I don't think the Holley system was a bad choice. I'd like to have seen some features for flagging bad sensors (trouble light etc.) and maybe some mention of how the ECU compensates for that though. Some of the new ones like the GEN7 can apparently do some of this. Slowly but surely the new ECUs are approaching some of the nice to haves that the OEMs have had to put in for reliability... Dan, if I've misunderstood any of the features by all means correct me, especially if the software offers data review options I didn't notice. Hrm, do they allow you to DL the software for review?

[TimZ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by clint78z:

TimZ I though the base fuel consisted of setting IOT, TOG, then a VE table to make base fuel calculations. Then there is TPS and Map change enrichment on top of that. Could you briefly describe how you set up a fuel map on a Tec II.

---

 

What you said is correct. I consider the 'base fuel' settings to be IOT and TOG. The VE table is for fine tuning.

 

IOT and TOG define the basic relationship between manifold pressure (i.e., load) and injector pulsewidth. This just defines a simple straight line relationship between the two, and is basically what you would get if you had 100% volumetric efficiency across the engine's operating range.

 

The VE table then represents how the mixture should be 'tweaked' for the characteristics of the individual engine, and is given in percentage richer or leaner than 100% VE. What is nice about this approach is that the values are normalized - in other words, since you are entering values in percent rich or lean, you don't have to figure out the exact pulsewidth that is required for each cell. The TEC does that for you.

 

Brad, my original point on the TEC is that people almost universally say that it's 'too hard' to use, or 'too complicated'. My contention is that it's really about the same as most of it's usual competition.

 

As far as the Holley unit goes, I just downloaded it's manual and it does look really good, and I agree that the increased resolution is a good thing. But, if you think the TEC has too many features...

[Brad-ManQ45]

I realized at work today that I had my math wrong on the # of datapoint intersections that I posted - a result of 36 hours of straight awake - it is really only 1/4, not 1/16th.

 

Ameliorating this somewhat is the ability to choose where those points are with the TEC system.

 

I will agree that once you are used to the software and know it's capabilities thoroughly, one package over another is a matter of features - those missing and those you want!

 

No I don't think it has too many features, I think that they have rested on their laurels long enough and need to develop current generation software (easy for me to say - I am a programmer by trade - I take the plans for what is needed data-wise and work with my end-user coommunity to create software that is both easy to use while giving them the needed capabilities - and a lot of the time I have to prevent them from shooting themselves in the foot), for use on hardware a bit more up-to date and faster. (I've actually been WAITING for this from them, because for the money I think they give valuta - I'm just a little dissapointed it has been sooooo slow in coming....)

 

You makes your choice & pays your money FOR that choice.

 

Just read that the stock computer won't read boost no matter what MAP sensor you have in it - that puts a damper on the deal.

 

Gonna have to do soome more investigating I guess.

 

Brad, haven't got an engine yet, Smith - signing off

[Guest Anonymous]

Not loud at all . no worse than a holly junker I've had blue, red ,carter is good low pressure . Hate holly leaking pigs. I love my SX Slapped it on side of cell .Swear its not too load unless its STARVING .5 Gals or less in tank .Such a HOG .You should hear it fill the lines on the first start .#8 All the way !! Never go hungry !! I'd sLap one on my moped if I could Just kidding .Also she loves long trips cut an 1hr 45 min drive down too 1hr 5mins and I stopped for fuel ! Soon I will not have a licsence .Goin back today .301 RULES .Also with 2 1/2 " exaust and Borla's What pump !

 

[ September 21, 2001: Message edited by: Cerberus ]

 

[ September 21, 2001: Message edited by: Cerberus ]

[BLKMGK]

Exhaust to be quieted "soon, pump is HIGH on my list, damned Holley blue noise!

 

spoke to a guy about Electromotive last night, had nothing but good to say and said it was second only to Motec. Don't think he had worked with the new Holley, FelPro, or DFI 7 though Good news though, I'm working on getting a copy of the GEN7 software from a guy who just bought it. Obviously it only works with their hardware but this will allow me to examine their features and software setup. It has a wizard for setting up base fuel like the older DFI - this is way cool. Sounds like Holley doesn't have that though. More on this when I've got the software. I'd like to see a copy of the Holley stuff too, already have WINTEC Anyone got FelPro?

[randy 77zt]

answer to question about waste spark ignition-all 4 stroke engines have 2 pistons at tdc at same time but one spark fires into exhaust stroke and doesnt do anything.most motorcycles are built this way.i am a tech at a ford dealer-ford hasnt used a distributor on anything for a while.all the 4.6 ohc v8 have direct coil on plug now-no plug wires.most ford engines are waste spark.my 96 van was last truck to have a distributor.i salvaged a efi harness fron a new 2001 4.6 truck with the cop coils -if i ever change the ecm to a programmable unit i will run coil on plug.some of the motec and the datafast units will fire coil on plug.i downloaded datafast sample -its great.it has a 3d graph the you can move fuel curve around by picking a point on graph and dragging it with your mouse.ignition is this way to.sample is at www.dtafast.co.uk

[BLKMGK]

Randy, supposedly waste fire can bring the torque up and clean up the emissions. Electromotive made some claims to that effect if I recall some years ago. IMO it certainly shouldn't hurt anything so what the heck - sounds good to me!

 

Who besides Motec, OEMs, and Electromotive can fire coil on plug ignitions? Can DFI or the Holley unit? SpeedProFelPro? I'm not sure I've heard of DataFast before - can you give more info please?