more on the 4G63/64 swap into a 240

[Bob_H]

Ok, Bill you might be the most knowledgable but looking for all ideas on this one.

I will be changing some things up on my Z, (the Datsun Workshop stroker mule), and am exploring several ideas, all oriented towards track events.

I really like the idea of the 2.4 bottom end,(appropriately modified, i.e. new pistons/rods/oil squirters), and the 4g63 top end.

What I am looking to find is links or info about how to make a tranny work behind it. Be it a T56, a Surpa tranny, or otherwise. I found very little with respect to that.

Second, I know it can make 400-600 hp, but what kind of power with a 3-4000 rpm power band, (say 3000-6500/7000)? Sure, I could put 500hp to the wheels, for 200 rpm. Since I am at the track all the time,(currently it is mostly instructing), flexability is important. I would guess 350-400 hp would be a rough target, something like 300 at the wheels.

Next, Bill, you addressed the different manifolds and that you thought the mighty max intake would work. Any further knowledge?

This whole topic was discussed on the road race 240 thread, but I wanted to take it a step further and evaluate is feasability and potential cost.

My plan would be some stand alone engine management unless someone has a better option. Custom turbo setup, some form of intercooler, an intake that works,(i.e. faces the right direction) and is close to bolt up, and the aformentioned engine combo backed up by some tranny.

Let the ideas fly,

-Bob Hanvey

[yo2001]

DSM motor right? there is no power in lower rpm. I've talked to several DSM guys and they are shifting like 8k-9k rpm may be more. They are always talking about 6 bolts and 7 bolts whatever. 7 bolts is supposed to be better.

 

don't get a stage V turbine unless the 2.4L is going to be a heavy breather. on 2L, it won't boost.

[Guest Anonymous]

No, Im pretty sure the 1st gen 6 bolt is the best...

 

As far as the power and when it comes on.......depending on the turbo of coarse, but 4g63s even with a mere 2.0L make a GREAT mid range.

http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0209tur_dynocell/

In stock form they make great low and mid range torque and power. The bigger the turbo, the more it moves up, but still, the 4g63 has a wide power band.

[awd92gsx]

Actually, you're quite wrong on the powerband.

 

Very few DSM'ers shift at anything over 6500rpm (if I remember right, this is also what Dave Buschur shifts at) AS LONG AS they have a GOOD setup.

 

Mitsubishi W5M33 trannies tend to not shift correctly at 9k rpm, oftentimes leading to broken shift forks and hub assemblies at that RPM.

 

However, the 63/64 hybrid will provide a nice helping of low end torque while still maintaining all high rpm power. Kinda like having your cake and eating it, too. Magnus Motorsports built up a 6 bolt 4G64 and put it into a 2G. If memory serves me correctly he ran a 10.1 at something like 147 mph and never saw above 7k rpm.

 

There is alot of controversy regarding the oil squirters in a 4G63. Many people believe the oil squirters are the cause of 4G63 crankwalk (although I've heard differently through Mitsubishi). Personally, I'd leave them out, but again, opinions vary.

 

I've driven and seen turbocharged 4G64's (2.4L) and can honestly say that I'd much rather have a turbo'd 4G64 than a 4G63. Even at modest boost levels the 4G64 had a ton of power through the entire rpm range.

 

This may help with your transmission question:

 

http://www.geocities.com/piercedjd/tranny.html

 

Before answering the other questions, try checking out this site (he is an online friend of mine and is pretty helpful)

 

http://www.geocities.com/piercedjd/4G63Conquest.html

[Bob_H]

Bill,

Thanks for the site. That was actually one of the only sites I found. What I am really looking for is someone who adapted the 6 speed, but I digress,(never did like my '90 Supra Turbo 5 speed shifter). It would also be nice to know the approx. lenght of the tranny vs. the stock Z's and the length of the engine from the tranny to the mounts as compared to the L6. Obviously a mid engined car is great, but then you get into long engine mounts to make it work, etc..

See, I can sell my stroker to help finance my next project,(someone gets a fully sorted stroker motor with triple SK's and dyno printouts, both engine and chassis plus all receipts, shouldn't have any problem selling it!)

I was discussing my thoughts on the 4g64 swap with my engine builder,(who works on a fair amount of Mitsu motors), and he said that the 2G turbo motors are the ones he sees most often, and for the following reasons: Every one has some form of crank/bearning damage, usually fatal, i.e. block and crank,(nothing new to you there). What he has found is the internal check valve in the oil squirters in the newer blocks were failing, allowing all the oil pressure to dump out of the squirters, robbing the crank and its bearings of the oil they need. The thrust bearing usually takes it the worst b/c with little or no oil pressure, combined with use of the clutch, rubs the crank into and through the thrust bearing, ruining both the crank and the block. He said nearly every one he has seen in the shop has had that problem. He said the 63's are nearly bulletproof and he hasn't seen that problem even pushing hp in the high 300's at the wheels.

Interesting side note and it matches what I read all over the internet about the later 2G turbo blocks. Can't tell you about the non-turbo's though, but I am sure it is an oil related problem.

[awd92gsx]

I once had the oppurtunity to measure (on the car) a Starion tranny and it came out to be within an inch or so of a Z tranny.

 

Now, the 4G64 that we've been talking about (btw...I've never seen or heard of a 4G64 crankwalking) have been out of cars. There are two 4G64's. The car version, and the truck version. The truck version has a larger bell housing bolt pattern than the car version.

 

I stand firm in my belief that the 2.0L head will still bolt onto the truck version and I believe the Starion tranny will bolt onto the larger 4G64 bell housing.

 

If this is true, then it would be simplest to use a truck 4G64, the 2.0L 4G63 cylinder head, and a Starion transmission, which has gear ratios similiar to a Z I believe.

[Bob_H]

Ok, tranny length is the same, plus or minus an inch or two. That is fine, but with the engine being two cylinders shorter, I take that to mean the engine mounting bosses are much further back than the "stock Z" location...?

And as far as the crankwalking, with how little I know about the designations of the 4G motors, it is very possilble I am getting them mixed up. Bottom line, it was the second gen turbo motor. not the NA ones,(which is what we are talking about as the bottom end - where I think my confusion was). Don't have the faintest clue what the designation is for the DOHC second gen turbo motors,(in the 2G bodies). That was what all my comments were about.

Now, it appears that you can get a powerband that will be 200 some odd hp up through 400 and about the same torque from about 2500-6500. Does that sound far off? Sounds a lot like a V8. How is the turbo response for that kind of power? I am much more concerned with part throttle response as I roll on the gas coming out of a turn, vice flooring it and it coming on really quick. Tractability on the road course is key. If I get everything sorted out in the next few months,(i.e. sell the cars I need to), I may pick up a Galant or 1st gen DSM to start learning the motor and see if it is worth it.

And speaking of tranys, I assume those with startions running the Supra 5 speed are not having problems with parts breaking? And the way you said the last few sentences, I take it to mean some are running Starion,(not Supra), trany's behind the 4G motors. How strong is the truck and Starion trans? Yea, the 83 ZX box will survive under 400-500 hp, but not for a long time, and is not good for road racing. To me, it sounds like the truck motor/tranny,(or startion one), the 4G63 DOHC head and associated parts would be the best setup,(as you said) with something like a Venom intake customized to have the inlet on the other side... Then you start getting into $$$, custom intake, bigger injectors, piping and intercooler, aftermarket exhaust manifold, and turbo, upgraded clutch/flywheel, engine managment, etc.. the opportunity to spend money is endless!

-Bob

Interesting. But I'm still thinking about the actual mounting of the motor mounts.

[awd92gsx]

Keep in mind, though, that a small block chevy isn't all that much longer than a 4G63, it just happens to have twice as many cylinders...

 

Ok, the engine designations are as follows:

 

1) 4G63T - This applies to both the 1st and 2nd Generation 2.0L turbo engines. The 2nd generation 4G63 engines are typically the crankwalkers of the bunch

 

2) 4G64 - This is the 2.4L engine from the truck, vans, and cars. There are a few variations of the 4G64 so they're not all the same, but they're all called 4G64's.

 

I've never seen anybody break a Starion tranny, so I don't know how strong they are, unfortunately.

 

Basically, with the 2.4L you have a power band from about 2500-7000 rpm.

 

You don't have to buy or build a custom intake manifold. A guy by the name of Eric Plebani (he stuffs 4G63's into anything he can) can modify a stock one to mount the throttle body on the other side. From what I can tell it's not a super major process.

[Guest Anonymous]

Are you sure the 4g64 revs up to 7K?? That seems like it would be pretty fast for a 2.4L 4 banger to rev....

[Bob_H]

What are the piston speeds in the stroker setup? Actually, I guess it really isn't a true "stroker" setup is it? All you are doing is putting a cylinder head on that changes the compression and number of cams. Can you give me the stroke/rod length specs for the 4G64 again please? What is the "stock" redline of that motor? I know that changing to aftermarket pistons changes that, but I'm curious now as to the piston speeds. I did so much calculating when I was building the 3.1 b/c of using the 240sx pistons. I wanted to not exceed the piston speed it was rated for, which was leading to rapid ring land erosion from the high speeds/loads.

-Bob