Guest Zachb55 Posted September 13, 2002 Share Posted September 13, 2002 I want to learn about Stand Alone computers, because this is what i want to use if i am to do an RB26 or 2JZ swap. First of all, what are some companies or websites where i can learn about how they work, and how much they cost, cause im really lost when it comes to replacing the stock computer . And also, do any of you have stand alones? are they easy to use? do they hook right up to your computer so you, or someone who knows what their doing can program everything your engine does? Thanks in advance -Zach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted September 14, 2002 Share Posted September 14, 2002 Running an AEM ECU on a 2JZGTE in my Supra. Works well but it requires knowledge to tune. You cangrab copies of the software on the AEM BBS - www.aempower.com/bbs I've got demo software for the DFI, FAST, and I think Holley Commander on my site. You'll want to check out W/B O2 sensors while you're at it - gets pricey fast I'm afraid Be aware, many of the standalone systems out there require you to use specific sensors - like GM sensors. That might not work out for you. Motec and AEM allow you to set tables for whatever sensors you want so that you can use the stock units. Not sure that any others are that flexible. Check out Electromotive too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony240ZT Posted September 14, 2002 Share Posted September 14, 2002 BLKMGK I'm really interested in why you don't bring the Wolf3D system up (you meantioned you had some reason in an earlier post). It has the ability to use any temp sensor (table setup just like you mentioned), has many different ways to bring in timing, overall pretty flexable. It's the only system I know of that has the handy hand held LCD, which I think is a great tool. Everyone I have talked to that has used it loves it, and the techs seem very knowlegable. There's even a 510 guy that races with a L28ET on the developement team. Anyways, I've got a small list of engine management systems on my links page on my site. Also worth checking out EFI hardware if you wanna go with a multi port throttle body fuel injection system, very pricy in deed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted September 15, 2002 Share Posted September 15, 2002 I don't bring it up because I've not spent much time researching it. It's been my experience that systems that can be programmed with a hand-held device generally don't have the same sorts of abilities as the full-on systems. Apex PFC, SDS, Crane Interceptor, and others just don't have the same capabilties. If you've got some good pages to check out concerning the system I'll look but it's not one that I've heard much about. (shrug) How old is the system? How does it datalog? Is the LCD programmer the only thing that can be used to program it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo2001 Posted September 15, 2002 Share Posted September 15, 2002 http://www.emergent.com.au/200sx/ecudata.html#A1 ECU comparison Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zachb55 Posted September 15, 2002 Share Posted September 15, 2002 hmmm, thanks for the replies... I think i like the Motec M800 the most, anybody have experiance with these? so you have to buy sensors to hook up to it as well? like for all the temps and ratios and stuff? do these cost big money? sounds like fun..... probably helps your engine performance alot though im guessing. Thanks fo the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony240ZT Posted September 15, 2002 Share Posted September 15, 2002 Btw that comparison page had info on the Wolf3D v3.0, the 4.0 is out now and they did quite a bit of changes, new processor, new software, more goodies.. BLKMGK, Pete Sanders has been running with the 3.0 system for around 3 years now. Programming it with a computer is far easier than doing it with the handheld, you can't manipulate all of the map points on the hand held. I don't think the data logging will play back data (not sure, been messing with my orange car too much to get time for the other). It's possible all data can be logged if you have the PC hooked up. Pete may know. Would be worth checking out their page for details, I will know a LOT more before the end of the year as I get my orange car is better shape and have more time for my silver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted September 15, 2002 Share Posted September 15, 2002 Don't do the Motec! Have you seen the prices? Tech support is by the HOUR and costs an insane amount of money!You don't get all of th eoptions in the base model - you have to purchase passwords to unlock additional features. Last I heard their software was DOS based but I think that might have changed. If you want that much capability do the AEM and save SEVERAL thousand dollars! On that comparison chart with the Wolf 3 the AEM can answer YES to every single "no" and has more I/Os. The Wolf 4 is better but still has fewer I/Os. How much does the Wolf 4 cost? If it's under $1500 with sensors and wiring that's pretty good. If it's more like $2K I'd look more closely at the AEM. The AEM is more powerful but not all of that power might not be needed. My PnP model was only $1100 but the race model will include wiring and whatnot so it will cost more. Figure you'll want a W/B on top of that too for about $700 (FJO) or less (Techedge DIY). Supposedly by end of month the new AEM software will be out. Automap of wastegate and fuel plus antilag (forgot that earlier). Wish traction control would hurry up - I want that before Winter! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony240ZT Posted September 16, 2002 Share Posted September 16, 2002 My system was $1500 shipped, which included machine work to my igntion pickup. System includes wiring, sensors, and tech support. I even got them to throw in a set of 550cc/min injectors. For more commen engines, ie the 2jz-gte, there are dynoed maps that they will share with you to get your car running well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aaron Posted September 16, 2002 Share Posted September 16, 2002 Are there any systems, that are capable of distributorless ignition on a V8? I know SDS on goes to 6Cyl. I have not really researched any others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zachb55 Posted September 16, 2002 Share Posted September 16, 2002 I sortof figured the Motec would cost alot, didnt catch any prices but im sure if i had i wouldof said Forget it! where can i look at the Wolf 4's? im interested in those... sounds like a pretty good system if it were under 1500, and the AEM's look good too. Do you have to have a laptop so that it can be hooked up to your car while running or do they have like a cartridge that you take from your car to you PC so you dont have to set it up out by your car to program it?!?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony240ZT Posted September 16, 2002 Share Posted September 16, 2002 The Wolf3D v4 has a cartrige that you can take inside to your desktop PC. Although it does do some neat things when a laptop is plugged into it while the car is running, such as highlighting the current fuel or ignition map in which you are currently running on, also makes everything very visual like aux inputs blink, fan on/off, RPM, idle control pulsing, injector duty, air/fuel ratio. All of that can be seen on the handheld, but since the display is so small you have to page through it, and the laptop has anolog looking gauges which are easier to read than digits. The system will do distributorless ignition for up to 12 cylinders, the pickup can be on the crank, in a modified distributor housing, or a sensor driven by the cam. Then the system drives multi coil packs with wasted spark config for anything over 6 cylinders. You could easily run 4 coils, or 8 coils if you wanted to (3 or 6 for 6 cylinder). Like I said in another post I got my setup after taxes, shipped, and with a machined cam possision sensor for $1500.. All I had to do then was pick out coil igniters. I used 2nd gen rx7 coil igniters (these are like very fast relays, taking the load of the power needed to power the coils from the computer). I also needed an o2 sensor, some 12v relays, fuses, and a vacuum switch to use the boost controler. http://www.wolfems.com/ http://www.wolfems.com.au/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted September 17, 2002 Share Posted September 17, 2002 Originally posted by Aaron:Are there any systems, that are capable of distributorless ignition on a V8? I know SDS on goes to 6Cyl. I have not really researched any others. The new AEM does distributorless just fine. It has 5 coil outputs so wastefire is what's used most. LS1 coils work well it seems but I'm running the stock Supra coils right now with an HKS DLI to up dwell. Most folks wouldn't need the DLI but the Supra has a "smart" ignitor that must have it's dwell bumped externally. I may move to the LS1 coils - we'll see. I kind of like not having plug wires $1500 isn't bad, that was with wiring harness? Not bad at all! The new AEM system must have a laptop hooked to it for programming but you can build maps and upload them. The system has internal datalogging too but I usually use the laptop instead. Will the Wolf work with a W/B O2? If not I'd get an FJO with datalogging - a W/B makes tuning a snap! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony240ZT Posted September 17, 2002 Share Posted September 17, 2002 No wide band o2 sensor, yes that would be nice. Yep, $1500 includes the whole shabang, wires, temp sensors, and pickups. Just gotta get your own coil packs.. So the LS1 coils are the best way to go huh? I thought I was going to upgrade the 2jz-gte coil packs. They snap right into the 7m-gte as well (no wires is pretty nifty). A lot of those dyno queen supras run the stock coils, so I bet you're doing just great with your setup. You'll have to run past me your supra's setup again, last time I heard you were running without anything controling the waste gate, and you were running the stock ecu with something to bypass fuel cut. Obviously much has changed since then. How close are you to breaking 400hp at the wheels? Have you taken it to the track? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zachb55 Posted September 17, 2002 Share Posted September 17, 2002 Hmm, i see, i read about the AEM Plug and Play ECU's and they look pretty nice, maybe not pump out as much power though, since it doesnt have as much control as a full system might??? or is it just like any other stand alone, just using all the stock sensors? and do you think i could get one of these for a RB26 somewhere? they didnt have any info about one on their site, but why would they need info about a japanese engine on an American website RIGHT?!?! With the Wolf system can you just buy it for any engine then trim the harness so it works for you? if it came with a full harness would it have wires for the tail lights and all that too or what? im confused about how you can just replace the whole cars harness with some harness from some company that doesnt even know what car its going to end up in, PLEASE HELP ME, im lost... Thanks for the help, -Zach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RB30-ZED Posted September 17, 2002 Share Posted September 17, 2002 I think you guys may find this site interesting, if not for the fact that this is a very good system, but also because you can use a old corvette ecu as a donor. http://www.kalmaker.com.au/page7.html It uses a Delco ECU and all its sensors and loom. Any thing a factory Delco ECU can do can be changed to suit, ive used it for a couple of year and its been fantastic. Steven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_H Posted September 17, 2002 Share Posted September 17, 2002 Steven, I just finished reading about that ECM. Facinating that they use a base Delco ECM. Although the software is over my head for immediate understanding, mostly because of the use of abbreviations for many functions. Just as a contrast, I donwloaded the AEM software and it is more straightforward to read. I can't compare how well they work compared to each other. So you are using this unit on your RB30 motor? My only thought is how much harder it is to tune with a turbo motor with that ECM. Part throttle response/driveability is a big issue for me when I do the swap. There are numerous times when you are steadily increasing the throttle and boost is in a transient stage. It is that area that I am tailoring my search for. And I have dictated that I want data logging. SDS would be a cheap way to get started,(w/o data logging), b/c Clint already has some maps for the RB26dett. I think in the end I will go with a system that has someone running the same type of motor. That way, I at least have a starting point for tuning, vice doing everything from scratch. So right now, the search is: ECM with a program for a mostly stock RB26dett, with intake/exhaust and upgraded intercooler. I may play with larger injectors later as Clint did, but for a baseline to get started that is what I am looking at. AEM doesn't have their race setup going yet, SDS doesn't data log, Tec III is mainly a US thing, so there are no RB programs that I know of,(same goes for Wolf 3d and 4). Motec is more than I want to spend.. So Autronic and Haltech are up front for now. We'll see what I can continue to turn up. I have debated running the stock RB computer with the AEM, but ultimately, that limits me, and with the multiple throttle bodies, can prove troublesome... -Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted September 18, 2002 Share Posted September 18, 2002 Originally posted by Zachb55:Hmm, i see, i read about the AEM Plug and Play ECU's and they look pretty nice, maybe not pump out as much power though, since it doesnt have as much control as a full system might??? or is it just like any other stand alone, just using all the stock sensors? and do you think i could get one of these for a RB26 somewhere? they didnt have any info about one on their site, but why would they need info about a japanese engine on an American website RIGHT?!?! With the Wolf system can you just buy it for any engine then trim the harness so it works for you? if it came with a full harness would it have wires for the tail lights and all that too or what? im confused about how you can just replace the whole cars harness with some harness from some company that doesnt even know what car its going to end up in, PLEASE HELP ME, im lost... Thanks for the help, -Zach Umm, NO. The PnP part of it simply means that it uses the stock harness and sensors. However ALL of the sensors have tables such that I can use pretty much any automotive sensor I want. For instance the stock MAP sensor could only sense up to 18psi, since I run about 21+ I've switched to a GM 3BAR MAP instead. Swap a few values and away I go The AEM "race" ECU will come with a harness and a bit of added cost as a result. It will have the EXACT same capabilities as the unit I have - same hardware with a harness. Since you were considering the 2JZ and they make a PnP unit just for that then if I were doing it I'd use the 2JZ harness too and this unit. IF you want to build a custom harness and possibly swap sensors around on the 2JZ then a different unit might be better. Remember the cam sensor setup though, not all EMS can handle that. Same thing may hold true of the RB series motors as well, pretty sure they don't have a distributor on them like an old SBC. Not sure what I'd run on an RB motor but I'd bet that getting the Delco unit working would be "interesting". Does that unit have sequential injection? Knock sensing? Be damned careful if not! AEM hasn't done a unit for the RB yet, dunno' when the race unit will be out either but when it is I'm sure someone will figure it out - some of the 240SX guys have been asking already. The only reason it's delayed is because the AEM techs haven't had time to fully document everything and don't want the grief of the support calls. You should see the stuff they get asked now as it is. RTFM? oh yeah right - easier to bug the AEM guys with stuff from the manual. Harness would be just for the injection, NOT the whole car.... My setup? 2JZGTE, stock turbos and internals, FMIC, exhaust, wastegate unplugged still Makes right around 390RWHP. Fuel system going in soon, will be datalogging the pressure when it goes in. Single turbo after that. Ignition is just Iridiums and an HK$ DLI to add dwell on the stock coils. I may try the LS1 coils but hate the idea of having plug wires again even if they are real short ones. The DLI seems to do the job except when I run about 17.5:1 A/F and 39 degrees advance during cruise Not sure the LS1 coils would do better. I'm considering alcohol/water injection while I'm at it too - can run it like a staged injector with it's own map. Just have to figure out how best to set this up - probably use an Aquamist solenoid, nozzle, and some sort of big pump... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RB26DETT Posted September 18, 2002 Share Posted September 18, 2002 Hi all, Zachb55 -- plug and play means that the ecu is designed for a specific car and will plug upto where the factory ecu used to. this eliminates the need for labour intensive wiring, changing sensors etc. a plug and play will not work for your zed unless you swap the whole wiring harness from a skyline into your car! (or the harness of whichever motor you are using) for a zed, plug and play is of no benefit (actually its more work) but if you have a late model car and the plug and play unit is available for that model of car, than it is well worth it for the ease of fitting. also note that the plug and play DOES have the FULL functions that a "normal" (ie one that you need to run the wiring harness)unit would. the harness provided with the computer is only to run the engine side of the car and some extra auxilaries such as thermo fans etc. it DOES NOT replace the wiring harness of your taillights and whatever else. usually the computer controls things like ignition and fuel etc. using references such as throttle position, air temperature, water temperature, boost pressure, crank angle etc. Bob H -- I wouldn't use Haltech as the computers have high reliability issues. a good friend/mechanic/dyno operator is an autorised dealer for Wolf/Autronic/Haltech/Hawk and he refuses to sell the Haltech to customers since he has sent numerous new computers back (E6K) to the manufacturer. until they sort out their quality control i advise you stay clear of their units (one less trouble that you need when building a car!) also you shouldn't be so concerned about finding a map that already exists for an RB26DETT, you should look for a good dyno shop and see what they have experience with and recommend that you use. i wouldn't use a fuel map from another car, as your mods will be different from others!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RB30-ZED Posted September 18, 2002 Share Posted September 18, 2002 Hi Bob, I did have this system running my last motor which was a L28 running a roots blower. I ran the Kalmaker 2 bar programme which is now part of the new system they sell. the advebriations they use are all in the hand books and make a lot of sense once you get use to them. some of the features of the 2 and 3 bar programme are water injection control by a 3D map, 3D boost control so you can run more or less boost at different rpms, and inlet temp correction for ignition maps. It also has the ability to run two sets of fuel and ignition maps that can be switched between or biased between each other while driving. I cant see the Kalmaker having any problem with your transient boost problem, as its rpm VS. manifold pressure, if boost is changing so will the fuel map. If you email Alan at Kalmaker he would be happy answer any questions for you. Steven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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