BLKMGK Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Well, if what I'm reading is correct Ara is in the SIXes with a 2JZ -> http://www.nhrasportcompact.com/2002/drivers/A_Arslanian.html and -> http://urbanracer.com/features/idrc_sumslam02_article.html How fast did that Z run again? BTW he's got TWO cars identically prepared running that fast so it's not a fluke. His stock unibodied Supra runs 9s with a six speed. There are Supras running in the 9s with functioning A/C that can be street driven. Twin turbos don't necessarily buy you a broader power band unless they're sequential BTW. Each turbo receives HALF the exhaust flow so they must be much smaller as a result. The advantage 2 turbos might have in that case is less mass for a slightly quicker spool. Many Supra don't bother to change cams until they make 700RWHP or more where they can begin to become a restriction (I'm told). A set of 264cams is still streetable with a good idle and it's not until you goto 272 cams that you have to start idling the car a bit higher. I MIGHT goto 264cams but will more likely have a head ported and beefed first. Extending my RPM range to 8K is feasible on stock internals and the racing 2JZ run insane RPM. If 1K FWHP is what you want a 2JZ can actually do that on stock internals for awhile. Certainly you could call a 2JZ "peaky" and the turbos laggy but after driving one of those "huge laggy turbos" for awhile I've found it's not so bad, I make power by 4K. Mine won't take me to 1KHP but it will hit mid 600RWHP on pump gas tuned correctly and I know of some making 800RWHP on race gas with mild cams (street driven). This would be a T-78. The bigger sized T-88 can still be street driven and pulls down huge numbers (900+ RWHP). In fact I'm pretty sure that Scotty has seen Jesus' car before and he runs a big T-88 on it. You can't compare a single street race video and typify an engine's power. Especially since the Supra now has a much better tuning option with the AEM ECUs. We're picking up TONS of power with this box. Tell ya' what, how about posting some of these non-peaky high powered VG dynos. 2JZ dyno graphs all but fall out of trees but I don't think I've seen too many high powered VG dyno graphs floating around. I'm sure I can find a few to compare, big power 2JZ are pretty common . Since this car must apparently stay Nissan powered it'll help out Jamie too. Jamie I agree that building a V8 car isn't the way to go, there weren't enough of them competing and everyone whined about them. Run a street tire class and you will appeal to the fans more and perhaps not spend quite so much on parts I think a 240Z is a good choice and would lean towards the RB motors too except that replacement parts might not be so easy to find Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MegaShaft_2000 Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Originally posted by BLKMGK:Twin turbos don't necessarily buy you a broader power band unless they're sequential BTW. Each turbo receives HALF the exhaust flow so they must be much smaller as a result. The advantage 2 turbos might have in that case is less mass for a slightly quicker spool. Yeah, that's the advantage right there. They're lighter and they spool faster so they make their power from a lower RPM. That Solara is pretty damn fast. I wasn't aware of its existence since I always was looking for a drag Supra, which is what I thought a 2JZ would be used in. I'm not sure what the fastest time the Escort Z has run, but it's in the low 7's with a trap speed in the high 180s. It's a shame that they did away with the V8 imports. It's almost as if they're trying to keep the scene from getting too fast. The "import" scene is almost synonymous with 4 cylinder engines which I don't really like. It seems as if you don't have a 4 banger, you're not cool in the import world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest eric-z Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 how about one big turbo and nitrous to help spool it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_H Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 Megashaft. You explained things clearly for what you wanted, but you started with some inaccurate info,(and very incomplete if I do say): Most of the big power Skylines and Supras have very large single turbos. Most of the Supra's have single turbo's. Most of the high power Skyline's with the RB26 have two turbo's. Take a look at the records for those cars and you will see about 90-95% have twins on them. HKS, JUN, GTR-700, etc.. Take a look at this records page to see how many have two turbo's: records page And one very important fact about what you are comparing,(and everyone else). Most of the RB26 drag efforts,(all that I know of), are keeping the AWD. None have a solid rear axle,(not sure on the HKS car) which would greatly help their 1/4 mi times. AWD is only advantageous for launching to an extent, and then it is a detriment. So you are comparing apples to oranges in your VG vs RB talk,(not just you, everyone). I think there has been far more development on the RB motor, but that doesn't say which is better. The RB can make up for its lack of displacement by reving. I have seen a VG engine turn 10k rpm, but they were having lots of other problems with that motor,(things started breaking because of vibrations). And this: and when I went to an import race event in Englishtown, NJ, there were quite a few drag cars running either the VG30DETT or the VG30DET (single turbo version), but not RB's. First, you are in the US, not Japan or Australia, so that is a completely inappropriate comparison. Of course there are more VG motors! The RB is not offered in ANY car in the US. That alone makes is about as rare as a 3 rotor RX-7. They are out there, but are few and far between. With the used market finally catching up,(i.e. enough cars in junkyards in japan and aus.), we are starting to see lots of SR20DET's, CA18DET's and the various RB motors. The RB's took a little longer because they started out in more expensive cars and the cost is only now coming down to a resonable range. Jamie, wanna know where the development is now? The new VQ motors. The Japanese touring cars have swapped out the RB's and are running VQ's. But there is little info on how durable they are, what kinda power they can support, etc.. Now Jamie, in all honesty you want to attact attention to your shop? I don't think the 240Z is the way to go. People want to know you work on cars like theirs, or cars they want to own. That means newer cars. Think of it this way, you see two cars competing, one is a 510 with a RB motor running low 8's, the other is a 300zx running low 8's, which shop would you go to? Idealy you would say the one that does the best job. The reality is for today's market,(i.e. 15-30 year olds), they are more often attracted to the more modern car shops. But lets say you stick with the 240Z and tub the rear. The RB is hard to beat. over 1000 hp in either setup will require a fair amount of money and research and development. Depending on the money you want to spend, Mario,(of the GTR-700), is now offereing RB's for sale in the 800, 1000 and 1200 hp ranges. No idea at all on price, but to avoid having to spend all that money on R&D and get a proven combo? Here is that page: For Sale engines.. I know you want to showcase your shop, and you can still do that, with the chassis work, and the name. It is not terribly important that you assembled every part of the engine, as few shops do,(they farm it out to machine shop, etc..). You really need to look at your ROI, or Return on Investment. An all out assault in IRDC or otherwise is not cheap. Do you really think it will generate enough new business and revenue to pay for itself? Do you have a big sponsor lined up besides the shop? I highly doubt you will see the return...but you are in an area I am not as knowledgeable in. I'd be willing to bet there are better classes that will cost you less, but will produce a better ROI. I would initially concentrate on a regional area vice national. With increased magazine coverage comes much more additional time answering dumb questions on the phone from folks who won't really spend any money. I know many successful shops who stopped worrying about magazine coverage and ads because of all the extra time,(read wasted) they spent talking on the phone to those who just wanted to milk them for info. Personally, I'd love to see a 240Z in the finals. But look at all the 510's that compete in those classes? They don't get nearly the coverage the other cars do... food for thought. With that in mind, a VQ effort would make the most sense to me, and the car would become less important as they would focus on your work getting the VQ to produce power,(this is the 350z motor, etc..) -Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 Umm, how much faster do you think those TWO turbos are going to spool up? A hundred RPM or two? I'd be willing to bet it's nearly that close and certainly no more than 500RPM. If you think that will make or break a race think again. I can launch on boost if I want (okay, anti-lag and 2step but still) and once spooled I'm not out of boost for the race. For that matter I can slip the clutch and be in the sweet spot right off the bat with some practice. The REALLY fast Supras run automatics that REALLY eliminate many of the issues I've got launching my 6speed. Supra guys are now slipping domestic trannys into their street cars and single digit street driven cars are the result - it's sick! Again, post some dynos with full docs on the motors and we can do some comparisons. There ARE twin turbo kits for the Supra too and they make HUGE power - and lag like mad too. Most Supra owners who run them admit that looks was one of their big considerations in purchasing them. I do know of at least one that has custom turbos that should spool more quickly but I'm not convinced it'll be faster than a well done single. I guess I'm just not seeing the 2JZ as being such a poor choice, driving one everyday that has the capability to make over 600 at the wheels on pump gas might be skewing my view though I hope to dyno it soon, hopefully it won't embarass me! Bob makes some good points. There's some excitement over the new VQ motors for sure. All sorts of rumors about big power from them when turbo'ed too but nothing solid. Doing the development on that, which probably means blowing a few up, sounds pricey to me. Keeping to the local events isn't a bad idea IMO. Answering calls from all over isn't much fun and that IS a very good point for sure. My friend's shop answers quite a bit of silly phone calls and they don't even have a listed number! It does impact their work. If you're going to go tube frame you're certainly not resatricted to the 240Z, cool as that might be, either.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JAMIE T Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 First of all, drop the 2JZ jazz. It's out of the question. Rules require the engine to be of the same manufacturer as the body. That has been stated over and over. I may disagree with Bob in the point that people would rather see a 300ZX over a 240Z. Nostalgia is "In". In every mag we read that includes drag coverage, we see old school cars. The Mazda's and Toyota's get press. I think the EVERYONE likes first gen. Zcars. I was talking to a KID(maybe 18) the other day. He had just dyno'd his 240sx. he was looking at my Z when he came outside. He said he used to have a 280ZX, but said he would like to get a 240Z someday. I personally have never met anyone who disliked the cars. All the young guys like my car(it looks very JDM). The first gen. Zcars have been made famous recently(last five years). They are the star of a couple of video games, and the younger generation likes them. I'm 26, so I fall into the same catagory you said wanted to see newer cars. Having said that, it will still be the owners decision on which make we build, but since I'll be donating a 240Z chassis to the project, it will likely be a 240Z. I agree that people like to see street cars turn these impressive numbers. I have not decided on the class yet. I pretty much know that we can't afford to run 6sec 1/4 miles. I was thinking of Outlaw(allows back half cars and may allow V8's), or the BFG street tire class(stock wheel wells, but can run a solid axle). Any class is going to require a strong rear end, and like stated above, an Automatic trans(probably a 'glide). I will get a 100lb penalty for each, so 200lbs more than using the Nissan parts. I may be able to get the R230 rear to work like a solid axle, but still be considered IRS. I think one of the 300ZX's is done like that. As for the engine, I think the VG30's are done to death. It will be novel for a while, but will fade away fast IMHO. The VQ35 will be the best bet, but initial cost will be higher I think. Plus all of the custom parts like cams and rods and pistons. The cool factor of using the newest Nissan bullet is a plus. The RB26, I can get the engine for about $3500, Sell off the parts not used(maybe use the twins on a L6 later). Pistons and rods are available, and its power potential is proven. I would like someone to point me to some hard core race internal engine components for the VQ35. I need to know if the crank is forged, and the bottom end is STOUT. If the VG30 can make 1000+hp, then the VQ35 should be up to the task as well. This is a "Money is SOME object" effort. The budget has not been set yet, But I know there will be one for this car. The shop is geared towards road racing, and the Drag car is to bring some hype, and get attention from customers that would otherwise have not heard about us. The car does need to be successful, and not a no-show when the time comes to put on "The Show". You guys think we can bring wheels up launches that break the 60ft lights with the rear tires to Import Drag racing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_H Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 Please guys, lets not get into a pissing match on single vs twin's and RB vs 2JZ. Bottom line, not one of us here has had the pleasure of working on BOTH. Many have not worked on ANY! I think Mario summed this up well when someone was asking about why he ran two turbo's on his GTR-700,(running somewhere over 1300 hp) vice a large single: It doesn't matter what you use to get the airflow - it all comes down to packaging (two smaller turbos will fit where a large single might not, etc) and the piping constraints, as well as the better bearings and cores are not usually available in larger frame turbo chargers. Not only that, two turbo's, esp. high end turbo's are usually more expensive than the single large turbo. It also simplifies piping, exhaust, etc.. There is no RIGHT answer. Only different solutions. So VG30, VQ35, RB26, and the 2JZ,(not an option as I understand it for Jamie), given enough time and research, will produce amazing power. And your splitting hairs to talk about the differences. We in the US are much more familar with the 2JZ. Japan and AUS are much more familiar with the RB. It is moot for you to knapkin race and paper power each other to death about which is better. I know very few people who have put lots of time and effort into developing several different types of motors,(the 2JZ and RB to name one set). As for the 300zx record? Long since broken. Heck, when HKS brought their 180sx to NJ for an exhibition run, they ended up running in the competition and ran 7.25 @ 193 in the finals to win,(earlier ran 7.18 @ 191). Oh, in a four year old machine. But your still splitting hairs btw the cars. The US sees more 2JZ cars because we HAVE them here. If the RB were available here, I think it would be a different,(unknown) most certainly exciting scene. It is always interesting to see what people defend and claim is the best. The same happens when talking about track cars, brakes, etc.. 9 times out of 10, people back the car they have or wish they had. And most of the time they have little to no experience in the "competition" they are bashing. Keep open minds when talking about all these, and try not to show how limited your knowledge is by one-siding,(my new word) a discussion. Jamie, thanks for keeping exciting topics on the table! -Bob on edit: I would rather see a 240z vs a 300zx. My main point was a newer car,(not the 300zx). However you do have a good counter-point. It really comes down to what is the shops purpose with the effort Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_H Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 I would like someone to point me to some hard core race internal engine components for the VQ35. I need to know if the crank is forged, and the bottom end is STOUT. If the VG30 can make 1000+hp, then the VQ35 should be up to the task as well. Jamie, I don't think any of us here will be able to answer those questions. A lot of that is still very unknown. I would suggest you try to find some contacts in Japan and talk to those racing it in the Japanese GT leauges, possibly Nissan themselves. However the GT races are tightly controled, and my understanding is they run either 300 or 500 hp depending on class,(restrictor plates). So that may not be the best source. You are likely talking a custom forged crank, custom rods and pistons, extensive head work, custom turbo's and tuning....not cheap. My WAG as to what kinda power the VQ will withstand before needing aftermarket stuff,(assuming forged pistons), is 6-700 hp. Replacing rods and pistons? 8-900 hp. Just my uneducated WAG. Some unsubstantiated rumors say the VQ was not as overbuilt as the VG30, but no basis to back it up. Tough call on which motor. What is your target audience? Do you want more drag cars in the shop? Do you want more RWD or FWD business? You left that out and it is rather important to what you will draw from this effort. Do you want to develop parts? Do you want more customers? A RWD effort will net a higher percentage of RWD customers to an extent. A VQ effort will likely draw 350z, other VQ enthusiasts. Again, is the purpose to draw customers, or develop and sell parts? That might make a difference in what you do. If it is to develop parts, I think the VQ has more potential. If it is to develop customers? I think the RB might be a better route,(more knowledge available to produce power, and cheaper, i.e. less R&D). Interesting side note, I have heard the new R35 GT-R which should be available here will have a VQ based motor, possibly a V8TT. It seems fairly certain it will not be the RB. Maybe you can talk to Nissan about being a test mule for them for the Infiniti GT-R! Your business really needs to identify what they want out of the effort, customers or parts sales? Maybe it is dyno and development work they want? That should drive the project. And yes, I think RWD at import meets will be well received, esp. with a known powerplant like the RB,(or an exotic VQ setup). -Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MegaShaft_2000 Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 Originally posted by BLKMGK:Umm, how much faster do you think those TWO turbos are going to spool up? How much faster? I'm not really sure to tell you the truth, but enough to make Toyota change from a single turbo on the older model Supra to a twin design on the 93+ model. Same with the Nissan Z, same with the RX-7. They all went from a single turbo system to a twin-turbo system. But I don't want to get into a pissing match about Z's vs. Supra's vs RX-7's. I like them all. We all need to understand that they were the last of their breed, the pinnacle of technology in Japanese muscle cars. Their successors are all going to be different, more practical and more cost effective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MegaShaft_2000 Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 Originally posted by Bob H: As for the 300zx record? Long since broken. The record the Z holds is for a top speed run at Bonneville. That record hasn't been broken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 Originally posted by MegaShaft_2000: quote: Originally posted by BLKMGK: Umm, how much faster do you think those TWO turbos are going to spool up? How much faster? I'm not really sure to tell you the truth, but enough to make Toyota change from a single turbo on the older model Supra to a twin design on the 93+ model. Same with the Nissan Z, same with the RX-7. They all went from a single turbo system to a twin-turbo system. But I don't want to get into a pissing match about Z's vs. Supra's vs RX-7's. I like them all. We all need to understand that they were the last of their breed, the pinnacle of technology in Japanese muscle cars. Their successors are all going to be different, more practical and more cost effective. Those were SEQUENTIAL systems in both the Supra and RX7, the Nissan did it for packaging reasons IMO. I have ownedown both FD3 RX7 and MKIV Supra. Set either up as a "true" twin system rather than sequential and both cars become slow spooling pigs. Some of the folks with twin systems, including owners of both Supra and RX7, switch to singles for more performance - I did. I believe even some DSM guys are doing this too. Nissan guys wind up swapping turbos rather quickly too don't they? In fact they might have been the ones I heard of that were going single with a V motor rather than the DSM guys (both maybe?)- some very nice headers for that swap if I recall. I don't believe that those cars were the absolute pinnacle either if what I've read about the new Skyline coming is true - we'll see. There's also something to be said for the RX8, EVO, STI, and I'll give the 350Z some credit. I've read some things to suggest that the 350Z motor is full of good stuff however the owner putting that forth may have been full of other things too That it will require an aftermarket turbo strikes it from my personal desired list and I wish Mazda had stepped up too. Do ALL of the classes being considered require same manufacturer drivetrains? Or is that just certain pro classes? Are there any regional classes that might be more liberal or will this show go on the road so to speak? I think picking a specific class and scoping out the current competition would be the VERY first thing to do. I've watched a few guys build "race cars" only to discover that they fit in NO class that they could be competitive in. That's a bad trap to fall into and expensive too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MegaShaft_2000 Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 Originally posted by BLKMGK:Those were SEQUENTIAL systems in both the Supra and RX7, the Nissan did it for packaging reasons IMO. Yes, I know about the sequential setup of the Supra and RX-7. But regardless of how the turbos were set up, ie sequential or parallel, a single turbo could have done the job but the manufacturers still went with twins in their search for quicker spoolup. That was my original point. Originally posted by BLKMGK:Nissan guys wind up swapping turbos rather quickly too don't they Yeah, the turbos on the Z are pretty small. The turbos and the injectors are what limits the Z's power on basic mods. The turbos are pretty much tapped out by 400 hp, and the injectors (370cc) are too. The internals will handle a lot more than that and the rest of the fuel system is fine. The fuel pump will flow for around 650-700 hp I've heard (255 l/hr). Too bad it's such a pain in the ass to change the Z's turbos. The easiest way is pulling the engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_H Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 The record the Z holds is for a top speed run at Bonneville. That record hasn't been broken. I thought you were talking about drag racing. My mistake. But something to consider that is very relevant and shows how apples to oranges this is. The 300zx body is far more slippery than the GT-R body. So equal hp for equal hp will produce a faster 300zx. In the end that tells us little. Drag rises as the square of speed. The Z32's drag coef. of .31 vs the R32 GT-R of .40, and .35 for the R-33. I don't know what the R-34 was, but I imagine it was similar to the R-33. So for the minimal difference in top speeds of the two efforts who's to say? Not to mention they both ran in different classes it was BMS vs BGCC in the R33,(the only Bonneville RB effort of note). So Blown gas modifed sport vs blown gas competition coupe. I ignored the displacement difference of E vs F,(F is 2-3L, E is 3.01 to I think 4.26) I can't comment on exactly what the difference means as far as power, but it is still different classes. Here is a pic of the Z32 effort,(notice the flush lexan windows, etc..): Z32 effort by JUN And the R-33 effort,(basic sedan with JUN aero kit): R-33 RB26 effort Yes, they set a record that hasn't been matched. But the RB isn't exactly in a slippery car.... And so closes the RB vs 2JZ vs VG "discussion".... -Bob wanders off into his own fantasy world... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
240Z Turbo Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 My take is this...from what I understand the V8(proclass) is gone and now the attention is on the 200mph 6cyl which has been done with the 2JZ of Bullish racing. Nissan is a strong platform and discplacement in this class is key. The 350Z motor would be the best platform for competing in this class. Although parts are limited, creativity and peoples willingness to develop products for this motors will have to be utilized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dan0myte Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 ^ | This guy likes 240Z drag cars. I hear he think the RB26DETT would be the most reliable 1000hp car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MegaShaft_2000 Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dan0myte Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 No one here has seen any proof yet of the VG's ability to hold high horsepower. BLKMGK and I both asked to see dynos, yet none have been provided. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MegaShaft_2000 Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MegaShaft_2000 Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dan0myte Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 You should paint the car pumpkin orange. It would be a good attention getter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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