Guest Anonymous Posted December 14, 2001 Share Posted December 14, 2001 i was wondering what would be a good turbo to run for my application. dodge 360 bored .030 over with full forgerd bottom end (not yet but soon). i want to make around 28-30 pounds of boost in this. i was wondering what you guys thought about the aerodyne VATN aerocharger. sounds very tempting not having to run a wastegate or oil line. but do they sell anything that can boost what i need. oh it will be hgh RPM boost, probably 6000 RPM for max boost. it will be a max top end style setup i know i'll have to run a twin turbo setup which will complicate things a little further, like should i run dual intercoolers or one big one? any ideas will be greatly appreciated. i'm still learnin in this field and was just wonderin what would be a primo setup for this motor so i can start puttin plans down on the drawin board so to speak. thanks guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimZ Posted December 14, 2001 Share Posted December 14, 2001 Hmmm... 30psi on a 360? Yikes! You DO understand that this should result in a 1000++ hp engine, right? Any plans on how to keep from twisting your poor Z up like a pretzel? Anyway, unless they have added a substantially bigger VATN to the lineup, this turbo won't be anywhere near big enough for you, even in a twin turbo setup. As I recall, even if they were used as a twin setup, they would only slightly more than a decent 360 sould flow N/A. You might get 2 or 3 psi out of them, and your horsepower might actually drop, due to the high exhaust restriction that they would most likely cause. As far as picking something out for you, I've not been sizing anything up for a V8 recently, so I don't have an easy answer for you. I would suggest, however, that you don't get too hung up on how much boost you want to run. This is the wrong metric to chase - there are too many varibles associated with boost pressure to get anything close to a predictable result this way. Instead, I'd recommend deciding on how much power you want and what kind of spoolup you can live with, and then size up a setup based on that (give yourself some headroom - you always end up wanting more ). It would be good to to some reading on the subject, but if you don't feel confident picking something out, most of the turbo manufacturers have technical staff that will be more than happy to assist you. The better understanding that you have as to what you want, the more they will be able to help you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 14, 2001 Share Posted December 14, 2001 I agree with TimZ The VATN is an excellent turbo system but not especially for your application. They are generally smaller (as far as 360 cid is concerned), and unless you did some serious modifications--which would quite possibly render the selection of a VATN not worthwhile in the first place-- I don't think you would be able to produce enough boost even at very high turbo rpm's. You definitely need something bigger. I've only dealt with single and twin turbocharging of 4's and 6's I can't really give you a type or trim to research. You're going to want to know some numbers, such as non boosted flow rate, volumetric efficiency, there are tons of them. All of which you can find and learn about in this book: Maximum Boost: by Corky Bell this book is essecially a turbo bible. You can get it for around $30. Single or Dual intercooling with twin turbo's is a whole different issue. To keep intercooler effiency at best, dual intercoolers would be best, but I've also seen some large, well-designed single setups. The main issue is plumbing, sizing, and making it all fit. 28-30# is crazy boost. If you have such high performance goals I hope you are really willing to completely restructure the chassis, driveline, fuel, engine internals, COOLING, oil, essencially everything. With so many cubic inches you aught to get along fine with under 20# boost. Unless of course you feel like paying some cash on ultra-octane fuel. Detonation can be a real ! Good luck! -mak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 18, 2001 Share Posted December 18, 2001 hey thanks for the replies guys. actully i already own the book maximum boost. i was just wondering if any of you guys had any ideas or if you could point me in the right direction. i was wonering if 30 psi of boost would be a little on the overkill side of things but i figured if i'm going to compete i might as well compete to win. i think that 20+ would be a livable power level, kinda weak but livable . too bad about the VATN though, it would have been nice to not have to worry about oil lines and all that. as to chassis stiffness i plan on doing quite a bit fo chassis mod and i figure when i'm done i shouldbe abe to handle it no problem. man this project keeps getting longer and more complicated everytime i look at the car and get another wild hair up my butt. but it's a labor of love thats for sure. this thing started out with a 1 1/2yr planned project now its stretching to probably 2-3 yrs till completion. although it should be drivable before that. im not in too big of a rush though. i mean if i get this done too soon how will i spend all my free time i think i'll give turbonetics or garret a phone call and see what they have to offer for my type of setup. i have a while to research what will work for me and i might as well start sooner than later. anybody else have any ideas on what else i might want to look into for this setup? thanks much, Patrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fl327 Posted December 18, 2001 Share Posted December 18, 2001 30psi is crazy, my boss built a gnx (grand nasty, we like to call em) that ran 11s on 20 plus psi, it wasnt getting oil to one bank of cylinders so we rebuilt the motor and stuffed it in, during the tuning, it overboosted and blew off all the piping several times at 30lbs overboost, a grand site to see indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Shasteen Posted December 18, 2001 Share Posted December 18, 2001 I agree that 30psi is F1 territory...so if you havent put in the modifications to your engine to live up to that stress or the Z's body then you may have to come back down to earth & settle in the 15-20psi turbo-land (welcome to reality..it bites/but sometimes we cant get around it). If you have Corky Bell's book then read it about a dozen times (I did) and then things will begin clicking (light bulbs will begin coming on) and you will be able to answer your own questions. If you understand how to read turbo maps..then that is the place to start. You also need to know at what rpm you'ld want your peak HP/Torque to come in to play: then apply your newly learned knowledge of air density, pressure ratio & if intercoolers are to be used then you can play around w/the decrease of the air temps. The first question you need to ask yourself is what/where will you be driving this "30psi" turbo'd car...if its on the street then you dont need 30psi. If it's at the drag strip then 15psi is gonna be all you can handle for your beginning turbo car. Read the Corky Bell book @ a dozen times & you'll be able answer your own questions. BTW: if you already understand how to read turbo maps you may want to go to "Turbonetics" web site as they have their turbo maps on-line & you can pick/choose the turbo you prefer by playing around w/the numbers using their maps. Kevin, (Yea,Still a "Non-Turbo'd V8" Inliner) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted December 18, 2001 Share Posted December 18, 2001 From someone who is doing one of these "Topend" projects, my recommendation is to get the chassis and brakes installed and sorted, then drive the car on the street...Then install the motor you plan to live with, and the fire system and net/ safety... You may want to check the requirements for a fuel cell and the cage design... Lots of headaches ahead for you in that area. Mike Kelly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Shasteen Posted December 18, 2001 Share Posted December 18, 2001 I agree w/Mike; there's more to a killer car than the engine. But, since you asked about the 30psi thang; I plugged the numbers into my excel program for turbo's & this is what I came up with. 360 Mopar . Bore x Stroke = 4.00 x 3.58 . You want 30psi @ 6500rpms . Figure a 100*F day (Ambient Temps) . 80% VE engine @ 6500rpms = 542cfm . Single Turbo Set Up . 65% Efficiency for the Turbo This gives you: . 1078cfm w/30psi Turbo @ 65% Efficiency Rating . 3.18 Pressure Ratio . 1.99 Density Ratio . 433*F Intake Inlet Temp w/out an Intercooler . 200*F Intake Inlet Temp's w/a 70% Efficient Intercooler . 232*F drop in temps w/the use of the intercooler Twin Turbo Set Up (Divide 30psi/2 = 15psi) . 833cfm for one of the two Turbo's with each turbo @ 65% Efficiency Rating . 2.09 Pressure Rating . 1.54 Density Ratio . 299*F Intake Inlet Temp's w/out an Intercooler . 159*F Intake Inlet Temp w/a Intercooler w70% Efficiency Rating . 139*F temp drop w/the use of the intercooler Those numbers should help you when checking out your turbo maps...If indeed you are dead set on "30psi" PS: The twin turbo Compressor Inlet Flow is only for one of the twin turbo's & not indicative of the accumalative cfm for both turbo's: therefore, too consider what cfm twin turbo's would be taking in you would take the 833cfm & multiply it by two...833cm x 2=1666cfm. PS/PS: Disregard the previous "PS"...to understand this disclaimer read the remainder of the post. (This is a big OOoops!) Kevin, (Yea,Still an Inliner) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 18, 2001 Share Posted December 18, 2001 you guys are right i do find that some time i tend to dream big but hey thats is where the fun is. i'm think i'll drop my goal boost level to about twenty psi. that should still more than meet my needs. i'm starting to think up/design what i hope to be a chassis setup that will live in this condition. nothing solid yet just some blobs of ideas floating around in the back of my head. i don't plan on using this car as a daily dirver though more like a weekend warrior. but i do plan on road racing it and possibly auto crossing with it. any of you guys can tell me what are some good ideas o to do to the motor to prep it for turbo duty. the 360 i am going to run will have 8.2 compression pistons (forged of course). forged bottom end, splayed 4 bolt caps, high volume oil pump, ported edelbrock heads, single plane intake, tecII engine managment system, total seeal rings,comp cams custom grind. needless to say i plan on making a very robust cooling system for this mill. i am trying to find a reverse flow water pump so that it will cool the heads first. but i have yet to find one. i might look into taking a electric pump and fabbing a box on the back of it, have it remotely located and pipe into the heads first. i aso want to see if i can make a hood ala gt-40 style but a lot of this is a ways into the future of this project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted December 19, 2001 Share Posted December 19, 2001 Couple of things... Have you driven a V8 Z yet? Mine has only 300RWHP right now but is capable of leaving a streak on more than just the road It doesn't take much to get a lightweight beer can moving down the road, a decent NA 360 ought to be pretty quick. Throw a bottle on it for some added fun. Work your way up the ladder to massive power and it won't kill you the first time out Brakes, rollcage, safety equipment - all of that add up too. Unless you're sitting on a mint of money go slow. The first V8 turbo I read about blew itself up it's first dyno run. It was built with Chevy "Pink" rods, good crank, 4bolt block yadda yadda. It blew because it made so much torque it self destructed! Version #2 of that engine used some seriously high dollar parts and held together making MASSIVE power. That sucker ran nowhere near 30PSI so be careful how high you shoot in the power game as those kinds of levels are BIG bux. The cost can begin to go upwards exponentially.. Oh, 30PSI? Would you believe some of the Supra guys are pushing nearly that much?! Stock turbos get pushed to 18PSI as a matter of course. 22PSI is apparently not that big a deal and I talked to one guy who pushed over 25 on STOCK turbos for awhile. WAY out of their power zone and they ended up dying after awile but that motor, with the proper fuel, can handle it on stock guts. Can you say massive RWHP? Yowza, I should be so lucky! Folks I talked to say this guy raced an 11.30 car and strolled away from him no problem. I can't help but wonder if one of these should've been a swap candidate for my car Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 19, 2001 Share Posted December 19, 2001 I would imagine that two of the hybrid T3/T4's that I or a number of others are running would be a pretty good match - maybe too much low end on the V-8 though - might want just straight T4's. I mysel want to run either a 302 or 327 with long rods and 9.0 CR. Keep the turbine A/R on the large side for top end and allow hooking up out of the hole..... Brad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 19, 2001 Share Posted December 19, 2001 i thought that a t4 would be better for this applicaton myself for that exact same reason, to keep the boost from hitting to down low. but i wasn't sure if a pair of t4s could flow as much as the motor needs. still kinda new to this turbo thing like i've said before. while i dohave maimum boost i've only read it once. i do plan on reading it again tonight and very night till i'm familiar with it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimZ Posted December 19, 2001 Share Posted December 19, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Kevin Shasteen: Twin Turbo Set Up (Divide 30psi/2 = 15psi) . 833cfm w/Twin Turbo's @ 65% Efficiency Rating . 2.09 Pressure Rating . 1.54 Density Ratio . 299*F Intake Inlet Temp's w/out an Intercooler . 159*F Intake Inlet Temp w/a Intercooler w70% Efficiency Rating . 139*F temp drop w/the use of the intercooler I'm pretty sure that when you run the numbers for a twin setup, you divide the flow between the two turbos, not the pressure. For a given engine and turbo efficiency, 30psi will flow the same amount regardless of the number of turbos. So, the pressure ratio for a given amount of boost is independent of the number of turbos - the difference is that you pick different flow/pressure ratio points on the plot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
240Z Turbo Posted December 19, 2001 Share Posted December 19, 2001 TimZ, you so smart. Correct, to give my setup as an example. 1 of my turbo's is rated 505cfm@15psi, so with the twin setup I will have 1010cfm@15psi. The boost pressures between the two turbo's is not additive, only the flow. So adding a turbo and keeping the boost the same doubles the flow potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Shasteen Posted December 19, 2001 Share Posted December 19, 2001 The pressure ratio & density ratio's both change when you figure 15psi -vs- 30psi...work the math yourselt & you'll see. That 833cfm Rep's [Compressor Inlet flow] at 15psi boost pressure & it was for one of the twin turbo's not both of the turbo's -vs- the "Single Turbo" at 30psi's 1078cfm of [Comp.Inlet Flow]...now you can see why the twin turbo thing puts out so much more power (air density x two...as in two turbo's) instead of one turbo attempting to keep up w/both cyl.banks. There are so many numbers to run & so many equations to look at I accidentally stated "Intake cfm" cofusing the wording of Intake Temp with Comp.Inlet Flow...my bad. Anyway, as stated before-the Comp.Inlet Flow of 833cfm rep's only one of the two turbo's w/in the twin turbo set up. These numbers were taken from both Hugh MacInnes (sp?) & Corky Bell's books. Kevin, (Yea,Still an Inliner) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Shasteen Posted December 19, 2001 Share Posted December 19, 2001 why is this posting twice?...no need for a duplicate post/erased the duplicate post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
240Z Turbo Posted December 19, 2001 Share Posted December 19, 2001 You so funny Kevin. Are you completely understanding what you are reading in the book? Something you are saying is not jivin'. The initial kicker that caused TimZ and myself to post was this: >Twin Turbo Set Up (Divide 30psi/2 = 15psi) I guess you assumed that two turbo's at 15psi each make 30psi total??? NO! If you did not mean that then how can you compare a single turbo at 30psi to twins at 15psi? As we stated before, for a given pressure ratio, twin turbo's flow twice as much as a single turbo that is the same. >The pressure ratio & density ratio's both change when you figure 15psi -vs- 30psi...work the math yourselt & you'll see. Hmmm. Pressure ratio @15psi=((15+14.7)/14.7)=2.02 Pressure ratio @30psi=((30+14.7)/14.7)=3.04 My goodness, you are correct...a difference of 1.02 pressure ratio. TimZ, you bastard what were you thinking? I don't understand your point with this comment, we are quite aware of the pressure ratio and the potential flow for that area on the compressor map. Let me make the comparison of my old T64 and my new twin 16G's. Here are the flow numbers for the two setups. Twin 16G's: 1 16G - 505cfm@15psi 1 16G - 505cfm@15psi Both turbo's together - 1010cfm@15psi Single T64: T64 - 695cfm max@15psi w/76% efficiency potential of 942cfm with horrible efficiency So, with both turbo setup running at 15psi, it can be seen that the twins outflow the single for this example. So what have we learned? The flow densities are additive and not the pressure ratios(boost pressure) when running twins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Shasteen Posted December 19, 2001 Share Posted December 19, 2001 Yep, Yep-Yep-Yep, Yep...I see the error of my ways. My numbers are correct for a single turbo set up just incorrect for a twin turbo set up (Oops). 240Z Turbo/TimZ: Thanks for not giving up on me! I was running the single turbo (as a twin turbo set up) simply because I havent put a reminder in my Excel program reminding me Divide everything by two...not just the boost psi. Alright (I hate refinements as it always comes as a surprise rather than a planned requirment). Time to expand my program. BTW: in my incorrect process of the initial problems...my Execution of the process was correct-just my numbers for a "Twin Turbo" set up were somewhere WAY OUT THERE...again thanks for catching that as I've gone this far w/out making the appropriate changes for an actual "Twin Turbo" Set up w/in my (Home-Grown) program. Still learning myself (turbo's are still fun even if they require an "Edumacation" learning curve This is what I like about HybridZ; "Everyone gets a chance to learn" even those who think they already know! I guess this means I'm not an Old Dog yet as I'm still learning new tricks. So if you want 30psi...then use those previously mentioned numbers & if you want a twin turbo then divide those numbers by two...same goes for the 15psi turbo: if you want a twin turbo set up that equals 15psi (15/2=7.5) then just divide my previous numbers by 2. Kevin, (Yea,Still an Inliner) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 19, 2001 Share Posted December 19, 2001 trust me blkmgk if i was able to get behind the wheel of a v8z there wouldn't be any way to physically remove me from said seat . as to my high goals i just figure if i'm going to go through the trouble of a turbo v8 i might as well set my goals high and make comprises where needed when found. i just thought why settle for 12 psi when it would require just as much work to get a higher amount. the only differance is turbo size. if i am going to go through the hassle of routing all that tubing and get it all set up nice for a turbo i might as well go big. and i don't really plan on jumping right in, like i said earlier i figure it will take me 1 1/2-3 years to get to the finished stage now that i know what i want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 19, 2001 Share Posted December 19, 2001 IMHO... Your best bet is just to talk to the right people. There are some turbo smarties on this forum but granted that only you know exactly what you want, and how you want it, I would only trust experienced turbo shops and companies to get you there ..--SAFELY--.. Figure out exactly where you are, and where you want to be (point A-, and with money, and time- from what I read you have a decent amount of both- a good company that specializes in turbo's and strong turbo prepping will get you there. There are certain aspects that the average hybridizer should tackle, and then there's some numbers you should run by the pro-builders, so places like Turbonetics and Garrett can easily plug your numbers through, given your hp goals and $$ limits. That is... if you want the best results. Of course that's just my opinion, I may be wrong MAK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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