Megasquirt 2 3.57 No start, timing issue?

[Flak280z]

I decided to make a new post, as my new issues do not relate to my other topic.

 

78 280z turbo conversion, 82 dizzy.  I have spark.  Set the engine to tdc when dizzy was installed, and turned it back to ~55 BTDC.  When cranking, timing shows at 10 with timing gun.  Car will sputter and wants to start on ether.  I think either my timing is wrong, or my fuel settings aren't any good. The timing talk of posts about megasquirt are all confusing.  I've read conflicting information about setting the car the TDC, turning it ~55 BTDC, and also setting it at 20 BTDC.  Not sure what I'm supposed to do.  Trigger angle has been set to 90 degrees, not 65 like the msq says.

 

If you guys could check out my msq and let me know where I'm being an idiot now, I would greatly appreciate it.

DG280zTune.msq

Edited April 20 by Flak280z
Added msq

[NewZed]

Any chance that you have the plug wires installed in backward rotation?  That would give proper timing on #1 but the others would be off.  Although, I have started an engine with the plug wires that way.  It ran terribly.

 

Here's your old thread with the msq file.

 

 

[Flak280z]

No, checked my wires and changed my plugs today.  I haven't installed that DIY CAS wheel from diyautotune, maybe there's too much noise.  Not sure, it's hard to find what the issue might be since I have no idea about TunerStudio settings.  I imported tried a few maps from the pinned thread, but none worked.  Although, none of them were really set up for the dizzy, single coil setup, so I had to change all the timing and advance stuff for my setup, which very well could be wrong.  

 

Should my trigger angle match my timing mark on the engine?  I'm a bit confused what that is and what the ignition offset is.  I can see my engine is at the timing mark 10 while cranking.  I have both my ignition offset and trigger angle at 90 I believe.

Edited April 20 by Flak280z

[XIMUR]

Long time no see. I am back after a long time because I run MSQ 2 for 4 years now, so I can share some experiences.

After sitting on a shelf for 10 years I decided to install it in a Mazda B2200, sorry! Ripped out the carburetor and installed a Mopar TBI. My goal was fuel efficiency.  My setup is MSQ2 Ver. 2.2 EFI only. I kept the original electronic ignition. I did some wiring changes on the V2.2 PCB before installing the EFI. How I did ignition timing:

1. installed the dizzy at 0 BTDC (there was a mark on the dizzy)

2. at idle rpm and timing light, adjusted the dizzy to 10 BTDC (vacuum advance disabled)

3. vacuum advance connected, at 2500 RPM ignition advance went to about 35 BTDC. Done

But that is for a Mazda 2.2L 4 cyl. engine.  The EFI runs without any issues and my fuel efficiency increased to 28 MPG in mixed driving.

 

[Flak280z]

I cannot start the car, therefore, cannot tune at idle.

 

Today, I looked at my rotor at TDC, it was 180 degrees off.  Rotated the shaft and all looks good.  I installed my DIYAutoTune trigger wheel and phased the dizzy, setting it at 25 BTDC.   Interestingly, I had to turn my dizzy all the way clockwise to get back to my #1 plug mark.  I set my settings for ignition as per DIYAutotune's directions.  Still no start??? Not even a sputter.  I redid one of my tables, so I am attaching my tune, and my tooth log.  I have no idea what's preventing it from starting, but it will probably end up being something stupid, as always. 

 

EDIT: I also changed the injector settings to match my injectors.  I forget exactly what the entries were called, but I have the settings at 30% and 1 ms pulse width.  I did get a single sputter with a puff of smoke after changing this.

2024-04-21_13.16.32.csv 280zTurboConversionTune4 21 24.msq

Edited April 21 by Flak280z

[Flak280z]

Attached is my new tune and a tooth log.  I had my injectors set for low impendence, when I have high.  Still had no effect.  I also made sure my tooth angle (15) matched my timing with a timing light.  I checked my spark plugs, and most of them seemed brand new, and some didn't even smell like fuel.  Maybe my fuel table is off?  I tested the injectors and could hear them all clicking.  It doesn't even sputter.

DG280zTune.msq 4-22-24 Tooth Log 280z.csv

[NewZed]

On 4/19/2024 at 1:39 PM, Flak280z said:

78 280z turbo conversion, 82 dizzy.  I have spark.  Set the engine to tdc when dizzy was installed, and turned it back to ~55 BTDC.  When cranking, timing shows at 10 with timing gun.  Car will sputter and wants to start on ether. 

 

It might help to describe more about the engine itself.  When did it last run?  Have you done any work on the engine?

 

Your focus is on the MS system but maybe it should be on the engine.  

Edited April 23 by NewZed

[Flak280z]

Yeah, no problem.  

 

Ran awesome 3 weeks ago on the stock harness.  I added the turbo, 82 zx dizzy, 370cc injectors, new plugs, and megasquirt.  I kept the same ignition coil.  I did no work internally on the engine.  I only removed and replaced surrounding components.  I find it weird I'm having so many issues trying to start it.  It had no issues whatsoever.  That's why I'm so focused on it being my settings for megasquirt.

 

I have rpm signal in tunerstudio, so I'm certain my dizzy install is good.  And I also have the CAS trigger wheel to clear signal up.  I tested the injectors, and those are all squirting.  New plugs are ngk and were marked as gapped for my Z, but I should check those to make sure.

 

Anyone have Chickenman's email?  I tried to pm him on here, but he hasn't been on.

Edited April 23 by Flak280z

[NewZed]

53 minutes ago, Flak280z said:

added ................megasquirt.

 

If you have spark and timing is right it should start on starting fluid and run for a second.  Not just a sputter but a solid burst of RPM.  Any chance you left a rag in the intake tract?  Could there be a blockage somewhere?  Are you using a MAP sensor?

 

Have you had a spark plug out and rechecked it?  Maybe you're adding too much fuel and gas-fouling the plugs.  Those are big injectors.

 

Just some ideas.  Get back to the primitive aspects of the engine.  Fuel, air, spark.

[Flak280z]

Pulling the spark plugs this morning, All look brand new, meaning no fouling or burning.  I put them back in, pulled the plug wires, and cranked the engine a few times.  When pulling them back out, none looked super wet, if wet at all, and only spark plugs for cylinders 5 & 6 smelled like gas.  I then went into tuner studio and tested each injector, and I could hear all of them clicking.  Weird.  

2024-04-23_10.55.30.mlg

Edited April 23 by Flak280z

[NewZed]

Here's a basic that often catches people - maybe you have the ignition timing set to the exhaust stroke.  The flash of your timing light.  The timing mark on the damper pulley passes the pointer twice - once on compression and once on exhaust.  

 

 

[Flak280z]

I will check again, but the last 2 times I set the engine to TDC, I made sure it was compression stroke.  With the transistor problem I had, and hearing stories from DIYAuto about Godzilla Raceworks poor installation of megasquirt upgrades, I'm tempted to chalk this up as a failure on their part again.  I know I can't just keep blaming the program, as it could be an engine issue, but megasquirt shouldn't be this hard to get running.  There is too much information that I've scoured and read up on for it to be this difficult.  I don't understand how I can have the injectors clicking in test mode but broken when cranking unless GRW messed the fuel/ignition circuit installing the jumpers for the single coil drive.

 

I appreciate the help NewZed, you are very knowledgeable.  I will continue to tinker and recheck the basics, but this is getting on almost 5 weeks for this install.  I'm half tempted to just buy a whole new ecu from DIYAutotune who has proven themselves, but that is banking ~$600 on the fact that it is a computer issue.

[NewZed]

I would try starting fluid again.  It's not satisfying as far as puzzle-solving, it feels like cheating, but it really will tell you if the spark is happening at the correct time, and the intake system is open.  If you have a remote starter and a can of starting fluid you should be able to run the engine for minutes all by yourself.  On a cold engine it's not a big deal, it won't hurt it.  On a warm one you can get some detonation so don't overdo it.

 

Beside that, don't overlook the exhaust side.  Any chance the exhaust system is blocked?  The air has to be able to flow all the way through.  You said all you did was install a turbo.  Turbo is part of exhaust.

[NewZed]

p.s. forgot one of the other big EFI problems that often catch people - intake system air leaks.  Leans out the mixture and also kills the sensor signal to the computer.  The computer adds fuel based on the air flow it is told is happening.  Might even be a bad MAP signal.  Signaling no air, meaning 'no fuel necessary".  Or a shorted temperature sensor showing a hot engine, which also means less fuel needed.

 

I'd go through the whole cold start sequence and look at what the computer needs to know.  Make sure it's getting good information.

Edited April 23 by NewZed
spelling, + more spelling

[Flak280z]

Attached is a pic of the header I chopped up and made into a turbo inlet exhaust pipe.  Could the bend be enough of a “blockage?”. I would assume the exhaust would find anywhere to escape, but I’m not sure about pressure and things like that.  I can double check the whole system as well.  Also, I have my vacuum block attached to a T fitting which goes to the brake booster and the vacuum port the booster was on.  This block supplies my map vacuum the is internal to the megasquirt.  Is this acceptable, or should they be separate?

 

When I used starting fluid the other day, I feel like the car was wanting to backfire out of the intake.  I popped out of the exhaust, but a time or two out of the intake.  Either I used too much or maybe the bend in my inlet exhaust piping is messing things up.  That to me seems like a pressure issue.

 

I’m only 19, so I apologize for my constant questioning and unknowingness.  I thank you again for the help.  I love doing this and making this car my own.  I’m glad I can save a car like this, I’m just frustrated how a weekend project turns into 5 weeks.

Edited April 24 by Flak280z

[Flak280z]

OK, here's some good new information.  When turning the key to ON, Megasquirt primes the system, and is supposed to do a single injector spray.  NONE of the injectors squirt when they key goes to on.  When cranking, ONLY injectors 5 & 6 spray, like I thought.  This extremely lean situation would explain the engine wanting to backfire out of the intake here and there with ether and barely wanting to still even start on ether. 

[NewZed]

Have you checked each injector's circuit?  Power supply and continuity back to the MS board?  If you have power supply and connection on the grounding side on all injectors at the board then your thought that the board is messed up is probably right.

 

You probably know this but the injectors spray when the computer supplies a ground to the injector circuit.  Voltage is always present at the injectors when the key is on, but they only spray when the circuit is grounded and current flows through the injector solenoid.  There are several ways to check the circuit.  

 

At least you're making progress.  

 

p.s.  the engine still should have started, then died, with ether.  You might still have a problem after fixing the injector situation.  One problem at a time though...

[Flak280z]

BREAKING NEWS: We have started.  Redid all my injector wiring, even though it mostly looked fine, I think a few of my crimps were bad on the signal side, causing them not to fire.  Did an extra nice job, and all was well.  Still wouldn't start.  Decided to rotate back to TDC.  Turns out, the last time I set to TDC, I thought my dizzy rotor was 180 off, so I rotated the shaft 180.  It was correct where it was the first time, so I actually made it 180 degrees off.  Just moved my plugs and it started right up.

 

Can't work on it however, as my oil pump gasket gave out, I think I overtightened the pump.  Of course something else happens and I can't tune it today.  Oh well, at least it starts now.  Will take this as an opportunity to turn my shaft to the correct orientation when the gasket arrives tomorrow.

 

Thanks for the help NewZed, you were right, exhaust stroke, not compression.  Will post in my build thread over in the L6 forum when I get the timing dialed in tomorrow.  Excited to hear the turbo.