Figured out a new turbo Monster.

[jeffp]

I have been toying with the idea of this 600Hp final build and I will need a bigger turbo to do it. So here is whatI think just may do the trick and still give me my cake and eat it also. I will have to run some numbers by a second opinion so I thought I would start here.

I am runnig a TO4E right now, but I need to get more of a PR ratio, at an acceptable efficiency, and spool rpm of the compressor, and I need to open up the exhaust turbine a little for better flow.

So with that being said, here we go

I have looked at the compressor maps and I think the T76 compressor falls right in line with efficency, and flow rates to get me to about 35psi of boost.

Keep in mind I am running 20psi now and am nearing a decrease in the efficiency of the compressor. I am also making 450Hp with this setup.

The exhaust was a consideration, I dont want to go with a full T4 housing, as I really want to keep it small enough to spool well, but still provide the flow I need to get to 600Hp without winding the engine to 5K to get the boost to come on.

So for this challenge I do have a couple ways I can go. First go with the T4 tanged exhaust turbine unit at a .70 A/R and a T4 turbine wheel (big shaft) P trim. or I can go with a Ford (I really hate Ford) T3 exhaust turbine housing with a .82 A/R and a stage 5 T3 turbine wheel.

and if I want to get really crazy go with a ball bearing setup for the extra 6 bills or so. I am still undecided on the ball bearing setup at this time, I just dont think it would last long. I use to run moto cycles and they would spin to 10K and that was not to bad, but this turbo will spin 95K rpm or so, and you know that is fast, reeeeealllly fast, so I will think that one over a while. Also I am not convenienced that the ball bearing setup really helps out the spool all that much, it had been said it will improve the spool up to about 600rpm faster, but I have never been able to get any really good data on it.

anyway so what do you think of my monster????

[Ron240zxt]

Jeffp,

Hey long time no talk, The only thing that concerns me is If the T76 will actually fit under the intake manifold, Or would you have to build a turbo header to help out on the placement? Im running the 82 ar housing with the stage 5 wheel, i actually like it, to atleast what ive experienced...

Well Good luck

Ron 240zxt

[jeffp]

Hi Ron, hows it been going for you? That is a consideration definetly, but where there is a will there is a way.

How do you like the .82 A/R and what exhaust turbine housing are you running, and finally how is spool up. I never hurts to get some good date from someone that is running what you are thinking of running.

[Lockjaw]

I would definitely be interested in hearing abolut that turbo with the stage V turbine wheel to.

 

Partucularily when it starts spooling and when it is at full boost.

[jeffp]

I was also considering the T66 compressor as well. Looking at the maps the TO4E compressor will flow about 48 LBS/MIN and the T66 compressor will flow about 70 LBS/MIN and the T76 compressor will flow about 85LBS/MIN all of these flow rates are in the 76% efficency area of the map, and that is what I am looking for, and the TO4E is almost at its top pressure ratio for the speed the turbine is spinning. Keep in mind I am needing about a 3.3 pressure ratio to get me to 600Hp so if the T76 compressor will not work, the T66 compressor will and I do believe it is a smaller unit LOL I have to wait to make a few calls Monday and decide whick will be the best setup. I will say tho, looking at it closer, the T66 is looking better and better.

[240Z Turbo]

The T66 flow 72lbs/min or 72/.07/1.6=642hp

The T70 flows 84lbs/min or 84/.07/1.6=750hp

Now, it won't make that on the L6, but you can base performance on what others have done. You can bet that you can get 70lbs/min from that T70 and that is well over 600hp. Don't even bother with some silly hybrid to make this power. Ptrim .58 will make the power you desire while maintaining some bit of spoolup. My buddies Honda made 554@wheels @30psi with a turbo that was equivalent to a T61-T64 through a Ptrim .58 setup. Figure about 25psi of boost to do it through a custom SS turbo header and you are set. Also, I think you might have to upgrade from those 420cc injectors!

[jeffp]

I was thinking the T66 will do just about what I wanted, the T72 with a little better efficiency (I want to try to keep the intake temp as low as possible out of the turbo so I dont have to make the intercooler work so hard) What are your thoughts on the Ford setup, you dont think it will do the trick for flow? I really dont want to go with the full T4 exhaust turbine housing.

No question about the injectors. I am more then likely going to have to use the 72 Lb Rochester injector, why? because that is what Clark is tuning the ECU with. And I am still not sure he can get the ECU to run that kind of power yet either.

I am going to need a turbo that will run 35psi to give me a little head room with it. I think the T66 is the winner. Keep in mind I am needing a PR of about 3.3 so those two are right in there for the power I am building. I would really like to get away with the Ford part and not do all the fab work for the T4 but we will see. I need to run larger then the 2.559 exducer on the turbine wheel, and I think the larger 2.7??? unit in the ford will give me the best results for spoolup overall then the T4 will.

[Lockjaw]

The stage V turbine wheel is supposed to be good for 600hp according to Turbonetics.

 

I am stuck there as well. I don't want to go to some big turbo and have to try to re-plumb everything at this stage of the game yet. Maybe later.

 

The little engined cars like the DSM's and SeR's running a stage V turbine are hitting max boost at about 5k. I figure if it takes until 5k in a 2.0 liter, a 2.8+ liter shouldn't have any trouble getting full boost by 3500 rpms or so.

 

You also have to keep in mind that the stage V wheel is a newer more aerodynamic wheel with 10 blades. The P-trim is I am sure, a much more dated design.

 

Condsidering they now have T25 turbine wheels that flow as good if not better than the T3 wheels of just a couple of years ago, I am sure that the Stage V wheel will work.

 

There is a DSM on the other board I am on and he ran an 11.4 at 123 or so with his stage V and a 60-1 compressor. He felt like with a little shot of NOS to get it spooled up faster and it would have easily put his car in the 10's. He said it was to laggy for him.

 

I know his speculation is bench racing, but still, an 11.4 is nothing to sneeze at.

[jeffp]

ok here is what I have decided, I am going with the T66 compressor, the stage V turbine wheel and the Ford (yuck,I hate ford so much) exhaust turbine housing with a .63 A/R that should be a good spool and get me to the 35psi boost I want, with a little head room.

I do need to take a look at the fit of this unit as the TO4E compressor is 6 1/2" in diameter and the T66 compressor is 8" in diameter, so I need about 1" more space between the intake manifold and the compressor. I haven't looked at what kind of clearance ther is right now, but the ford turbine housing looks like it postions the turbine a little lower then the stock Garrett housing, so maybe I just may luck out on this one. I am relatively sure I am going to have to space the turbo out another 1/2" at least from the manifold. I just need to take a look at what is really involved and figure out a solution. I am hoping I will keep very near to my 3K spool that I have right now, but we will see.

[Lockjaw]

Who are you going to get to build your turbo? I need one built.

 

I have a ford housing right now, and it is not very big. My T04B housing is a 60 AR rotomaster, and it sits about 1/4 inch from the exhaust manifold. In fact I cannot even clock the compressor housing with the turbo on the manifold.

 

I think the turbonetics housings are bigger, not sure though.

 

I am thinking the stage V is the way to go, but only want a 60-1 or 62-1 compressor wheel in a T04e 50 AR housing. That will fit, and should give me a nice boost over what I have now.

[jeffp]

I think Turbonetics is going to win this bid. Tell you what, my turbo is almost new I would sell that to you if you are interested. The whole run time is about 7K miles. I spent 1100.00 on the unit I think. I spool at 3K and the turbo will produce 25psi of boost. I am running the TO4E .5 A/R housing, but I haven't asked what the compressor wheel is. I am very happy with the way it runs, it just wont get me to where I want to finish up this car. Let me know if that would interest you and what kind of time frame you are looking at.

[D83ZXT]

Very interesting topic.....

 

I was surprised to see this stage 5 used so much in conversation. When Reed talked about it. I was like Huh? Never heard that one before.

 

Question tho....

If using this bigger A/R wheel. Won't you have problems with air density? What I mean is... with all that whipped up air from the turbine becoming super heated and loosing it's density which means less oxygen which means less HP. How efficient is this?

I understand an efficient high CFM intercooler would help, but is it enough?

 

Donna

 

PS..

James, I took your advice and plus, with the experience that TimO has with his new turbo built by Reed. You might say, mine should be here shortly. It was recommend by him. Since my new motor will be bummped up and running with TWM's. He put together a unit running the new stage 5 with his magic touches for high efficiency and fast spool ups

[Lockjaw]

Reed who? From turbo specialties?

 

Wheels don't have AR ratio's, housings do. I am not sure how to respond to your question except to say a larger AR ratio housing spools slower and makes more topend power.

 

Jeff I may be interested in the turbo depending on what it is and what it costs. I am scared to let turbonetics build a turbo for me. I know of to many people who have bought from them only to have the turbo fail in short order.

 

Who is our expert turbo builder now? Anybody have a rec?

[SHANE]

yeah i'd be afraid of turbonetics too.

 

Turbo Engineering Corporation

Golden, Colorado

 

303-271-3997

800-950-turbo orders only

[jeffp]

Ok here is what I know about my turbo. I dont know what compressor wheel is being used, coming from JWT they are tight lipped about their products. I do know it is a TO4E compressor housing with a .5 A/R the inlet is about 2 1/2" and the major (od of the housing) is 3" The exhaust turbine wheel is a stage 3 wheel with the exducer if about 2.250" I could get the exact size, but this is very close to it. The Major is 2.559" I am runnig a stock Nissan housing (garrett) with a .64 A/R, but that is reduced slightly when the housing was machined to 2 1/2" for the turbine wheel.

anyway thanks for the tip on turbonetics.

I did call them and talked about thebuild and here is what I have decided will be the best setup for my application and still give a good spool.

I am going with the T66 compressor, a stage 5 exhaust turbine wheel, the Ford turbine housing, stage 5, with the .63 A/R and with that I should be good to go.

I think I will give these other guys a call and see what they can do for me.

[Lockjaw]

The DSM guys are fond of Forced Performance. I have talked with them, and they will build anything you want for 900 bucks or so. Here is a link.

 

http://www.forcedperformance.net/

 

We also have Jaime who advertises on here too.

 

http://www.mjmturbos.com/

 

Jaime quoted me 750 for a hybrid with a stage V, 360 degree thrust bearing, and 60-1 in a T04 E housing.

 

I don't know anyone who has gotten a turbo from Jaime yet, so I can't say anything good or bad about him.

 

HAs JWT ever told you what turbo you have, ie a sport XYZ? They usually have names for all of theirs.

[240Z Turbo]

Sorry to be such the party pooper here. Stage V???600HP???? NO! What is it with wanting to do some hybrid turbo(t3/t4) to try and make 600hp. This is not a supra, not a Honda, not any of the above. It is a non-cross flow head, 2 valves per cylinder, yada yada yada! Hell, the technology is 20years old on this garret stuff. BTW, just measure your T04E compressor wheel and you can tell what trim you have. For what reason will they not tell you that you have a 54trim or whatever. If I buy something I sure as hell want to know what it is I am buying. Also, that turbo that you paid $1100 is a $650 turbo max. Unless you got the BB option which is not full BB.

I give up...keep us posted.

[Lockjaw]

Don't get all frustrated James. The stage V wheel is a new wheel with improved aerodynamics, and 10 blades. It is not a 20 year old design, or it would have been out before now.

 

While I cannot speak for Jeff, I don't want a turbo that is a slow spooling pig for a car I want to drive on the street.

 

The stage V wheel has a 2.7 in inducer and a 2.5 in exducer, so it is a good sized wheel. I think the P trim is roughly the same size exducer with a 3 in inducer.

 

Since we are both using the JWT set-up, we have to have a turbo that works with the 80 mm maf. It seems to me it would suck to have a 4 inch inlet on the compressor with an 80mm maf. If we had some sort of speed density set-up like you, things would be different.

 

Jeff made 380 hp to the wheels so he is definitely making power. HIs torque numbers were up there too. Not to shabby in my book, especially for a hybrid.

 

Besides, going to a full T4 means revamping everything in my system, and I don't want to do that yet.

[jeffp]

sorry guys, I just realized that is said the compressor incorrectly, the compressor is a 50 trim. I also agree with you James, the turbo was more then likely marked up a bit, but you have to figure they have to make money to.

Regarding my Hp at the wheels, you are correct it made 380Hp @ 428 foot pounds of torque.

 

The question still remains tho, how much will it actually top out at. The clutch gave out at 380, so I think it is really doing a little bit more then that. I was in the process of turning up the boost when the clutch went. I am doing another run this Thursday to get a baseline, and then I have a slight cam adjustment to make and see where that gets me.

You know James bigger is better to some extent. My engine has a specific requirement to get me to X amount, anything more then that is just a waste of money for me. I like the quick spool and I dont think 3k is that bad at all. Its the 4500 spool that I dont like to much and I am trying to keep the rpm 's low enough to manage a good shot off the line and still not bog. Even at this point with the car, if I do a good off the line start, the car really has a hard time biting to the pavement, and I am not to interested doing a sideways start off the line, not good. So I am still working out the fine details to get the car so that I can launch it well and not spend all my power burning up tires, or more importantly, breaking parts in the process .

I dont know James, you are a nice guy and you have helped me out on a few details that I have had questions in my mind on, and have generally been helpful to not only me, but others. I keep getting the feeling tho that everytime some of us start discussing this kind of stuff you are very negative about our thoughts and you have all the answers, now maybe it is I am to sensitive, but that is the feeling I get and I really dont know why you would need to come off that way. You definetly know your stuff, no question about that, and you have done some really nice work on your car for design, whats up do you want all of us to build their car just like your car. I kinda like doing my car the way I want it and if you do things differently then cool, you have what makes you happy, but at the end of the day, all of us want the best we can get so lets look at it that way.

[Lockjaw]

The compressor is a 50 trim or the housing is a 50 ar? A 50 trim is not to big a wheel. I would like to see what your runs produce though. If you get the chance, ask Clark what turbo you have. I kind of suspect you have the 60 trim T04e wheel.

 

James is ok. He and I have had some in depth discussions on the merits of running a big turbo, and I think his contentions are fairly accurate. However, I had a big rotomaster T4 on my car when I first put it together, and it sucked. It made great power when it was up on boost, but it took a long time to get there. I could ease out to passs someone in 3rd gear about 50 mph and I would be by the car and pulled back in about the time the boost came up. I did not get to buzz people like I can with the hybrid. Plus the ZX is a heavier car than his 240, and we cannot increase our displacement beyond 3.1 liters to make up for the extra weight.

 

The difference is technology. My rotomaster was a T04B, and so is my hybrid. The newer T04e wheels and housings are much more efficient and that helps them make big power. On top of that, the newer 10 blade turbine wheels are more efficient too, which means a hybrid can crank out some power that formerly only a full T4 could do.

 

As for what JWT charges, there is a reason you pay more. They dyno their stuff, so when you buy it, you know what it can do. I would encourage working with Clark, he seems more open to working with me on pricing.