BLKMGK Posted August 7, 2002 Share Posted August 7, 2002 Yup, I coulda' told you that. One thing aboout them doing that though is that it may be violating the license under which the OZ guys are selling them the kits Still, that's not bad for a W/B O2! The OZ guys now have nice boxes for them and sensor connectors etc. - VERY nice! About half the price of my FJO unit too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted August 8, 2002 Share Posted August 8, 2002 Found another source of W/B units that are reasonably cheap for you guys: http://interstice.com/~garfield/ Some possible info of interest: http://www.aempower.com/bbs/posting.php?mode=quote&p=3512 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R0N Posted August 9, 2002 Share Posted August 9, 2002 The one from http://interstice.com/~garfield/ are inexpensive. Good find. Which one you would recommend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R0N Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 BLKMGK, That was a good find. I called up the guy and found out what a good tools this is. For $739 you get A complete engine tuning meter, includes TWO channels of WideBand AFR measurement, both datalogged & independently EBP-corrected, -PLUS- the full slate of realtime datalogged engine combustion vitals: EGTs(2-8 K-types), MAP, RPM, TPS, actual/true IGN advance, INJ pulsewidth/%dutycycle. Also you can get the wideband o2 sensor for your car so you don't have to change bungs. It also has connector to connect the narrow band O2 connection from your computer. It also uses the Parallel port for faster reading to the laptop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RB26powered74zcar Posted August 10, 2002 Author Share Posted August 10, 2002 THANKS BLKMGK. That is very good info. I will give it a good going over... joel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RB26powered74zcar Posted August 10, 2002 Author Share Posted August 10, 2002 Hey Ron, without me speaking to them yet, I'm still kinda in the dark on what peices you actually get with the Pro. kit for $739. Does the EGO sensor (most importantly) come with it for that price? Thanks joel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 The Honda sensors are calibrated at the factory and have a calibration resistor in the harness. They can be gotten for as little as $130 online. It's an NTK sensor. Dunno' which unit I'd get to be honest. I like my FJO and got a decent deal on it with display but no datalogging which is something you guys want. Dunno' what that would cost. Mine was less than $675 with sensor and bung but that was a steal. The DIY kits are getting datalogging but I don't know how good the software will be for it For a carb'ed V8 I'm not sure just how much tuning you could do with a W/B since I believe the carb's adjustments are far more coarse than with EFI. If you're going EFI in the future though the W/B is damned near a must for tuning! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R0N Posted August 11, 2002 Share Posted August 11, 2002 Originally posted by 74260ZT:Hey Ron, without me speaking to them yet, I'm still kinda in the dark on what peices you actually get with the Pro. kit for $739. Does the EGO sensor (most importantly) come with it for that price? Thanks joel None of the sensors are included like in most kits. I think the RPM is included and the other tap connectors for existing sensors (not 02). He mentioned you can get it anywhere you want as long as it's the NTK brand with 5 wires. Also you don't have to get it calibrated one, you can just by the O2 sensor for $125 or buy it from somewhere else. The popular expensive wideband meters has built in self calibration for the O2 sensor. He told me the importance of it being calibrated when your trying to fine tune it. He mention for basic tuning it's not needed. If you buy the O2 sensor from him then you tell him the length of the wires you want because once you get, it's plug and play. No wiring, just plug into the cigarette lighter, screw in the o2 sensor, plug the harness into the 02 harness then your done. I spent at least an hour with him on the phone, not because I was asking question. He want to make sure I understand what he was talking about. After talking to him I had a more understanding of wideband meters. BTW Shipping is included in the price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted August 11, 2002 Share Posted August 11, 2002 Looks like Jaycar sells one too. Their display is what's shipped with the DIY W/B kits I think... http://www.supraforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=62772 Hrm, a kit that can be plugged in that easily to a lighter would be cool for quickie tuning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R0N Posted August 11, 2002 Share Posted August 11, 2002 I called direct engineering the other day and his unit doesn't do datalogging. The serial port is for the LCD display (Jaycar). He still has to make the unit before selling them. Still a good price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted August 11, 2002 Share Posted August 11, 2002 I don't think the sensors or bungs come with it. That's another $200 a sensor, if you want their calibrated sensor. Still OUCH for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gprix1 Posted August 11, 2002 Share Posted August 11, 2002 Having that information available to you to make tuning adjustments is great but what I would really like is to have that information be used by the ECU in realtime to adjust fuel maps at cruise and WOT. I have only seen narrow band being used by ECU's to adjust fuel maps but then they go to open loop maps at WOT. Does anyone know if any of the aftermarket EFI systems can use the wideband output for closed loop tuning for all conditions (even WOT)? - The narrow-band challenged Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted August 12, 2002 Share Posted August 12, 2002 W/B WOT? Sure! AEM does and they will be releasing a fuel map "Automap" end of the month. Their system is THE most flexible I've seen so far. No race system released yet, just PnP boxes but they'll release one eventually with a wiring harness - this is what will probably go on my car No senselearning two software packages IMO,one of their PnPs is on my Supra. I THINK DFI GENVII does it but am not sure - that's a pricey upgrade on their box though. Holley has a W/B option now too but I'm not sure it does anything more than log. Electromotive TECIII may,again I'm not sure. FAST does I think but as much as I like their software I've seen some things in their box I do NOT like - they don't have enough I/Os. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gprix1 Posted August 12, 2002 Share Posted August 12, 2002 Hey BLKMGK, From this: http://www.aempower.com/ems.htm it looks like they do have a race version available already. Also, they have a special notice out for all Supra owners that may be of interest to you: http://www.aempower.com/important.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clint78z Posted August 12, 2002 Share Posted August 12, 2002 Evem my old Robbie The Robot Accel DFI can run in wideband closed loop. Not sure what type input voltage it is looking for, the NTK sensor is fairly new but cheap. It could do alot but lacks good datalogging speed and graphical software for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted August 12, 2002 Share Posted August 12, 2002 The older DFI like I've got couldn't run a W/B - that came out later. However I'm NOT sure it could run that sensor WOT. My unit showed O2 but only centered around 14.7:1 Stoich. As for simply sourcing the NTK sensor - no can do. Without a sophisticated heater controller and signal conditioner it will quickly burn up. The AEM Race unit is NOT out. I'm also aware of the AEM update for the Supra and have performed the mod. You might want to check out http://www.aempower.com/bbs as you'll find a great deal more info there than on their WEB site Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulR Posted August 12, 2002 Share Posted August 12, 2002 Originally posted by BLKMGK: For a carb'ed V8 I'm not sure just how much tuning you could do with a W/B since I believe the carb's adjustments are far more coarse than with EFI. If you're going EFI in the future though the W/B is damned near a must for tuning! I recently built a DIY-WB using the Honda sensor and the Oz kit and thats exactly what I am using it for... tuning my carb. Its great because I can tune all the circuits including WOT. I am running a Edelbrock Performer 750 and what I have found is that the jetting was way too rich out of the box. I have gone 4 stages leaner on the primary jets and 3 stages leaner on the secondaries. I am now running near stoich (14.7) at cruise and about 11.5 at wot. still a little fat at wot but I think I'll leave it there to be safe. Anyway, very handy as a tuning tool and it cost about $200 for the kit and the sensor. I am simply using a DVM for the display, but I plan to build one of the 40 LED bar graphs that are available as kits too. Also looking into this $25 data-logger: Dataq Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R0N Posted August 13, 2002 Share Posted August 13, 2002 Originally posted by BLKMGK:Looks like Jaycar sells one too. Their display is what's shipped with the DIY W/B kits I think... http://www.supraforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=62772 Hrm, a kit that can be plugged in that easily to a lighter would be cool for quickie tuning. BLKMGK, I contacted the guy on who was selling the WB in the Supra Forum and asked him about it. He replied it's junk but the FJO rocks. I almost ordered one today. BTW, are you at Stoich at WOT? Paul R, Your the second person who mentioned this item, does it do datalogging? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted August 15, 2002 Share Posted August 15, 2002 Looking for a good price on the O2 sensor, I found the following thread: http://www.quithel.co.uk/zz_Power_gen.htm Go down to "Wide Band Oxygen Sensor" and you'll find the following: "I'm currently datalogging an FJO wb unit (which I expect is comparable) along side the OEM O2 sensor. What I'm seeing confirms that under steady-state conditions the OEM O2 sensor output falls as it heats up (as we've all read). What I'm also seeing is that the response of the wb is much slower than for the OEM sensor. FJO has confirmed that the basic sensor (not the electronics feedback control loop bandwidth) response to a step change in A/F is about 1/3 of a second for the sensor output to move 50% of the change. IOW the sensor reading is approximately the average of the A/F for the previous one whole second (do the math). That slow a response makes dyno tuning difficult and also makes the wb unsuitable for L3 control in the NA area where the OEM sensor does work well. I wonder what's different about the Honda OEM setup, other than that it's wideband area is only on the lean side of stoich. Ray" Hmm. So when I get this thing built and installed, I'll have to remember to ry to do some near steady state eyeballing of the meter for cruise AFR. This kind of reaction time is going to make it difficult to size the accelerator pump squirter and/or cam, and I'll have to be careful to read between the lines when doing transition circuit tuning. I know you EFI guys are probably thinking I'm crazy, but I'm going to attempt to do what Paul R and Rick Johnson (see the latest Sport Z Mag) did - that is get a WB02 in the car and tweak the heck out of the Holley. There are four circuits in the primary side and four in the secondary side. I realize this is crude compared to EFI (and EFI does ignition optimization too), but if I can get close enough to optimal AFR for the idle, transition (throttle plates opening from idle and low rpm cruise), cruise, and WOT modes of carb operation, I'm thinking I may just forgo the EFI route, if not for just a little while. Rick and/or Paul R, care to post (maybe in new thread) some detailed descriptions of how to optimize all the circuits of a carb to get where I'm looking? After reading and re-reading about 4 books on Holley tuning, I've found out how to modify the carb to fine tune all these circuits (i.e., add "jets" with idle fuel restrictions, transition circuit passages, Power valve circuit restrictions, etc.). With the WBO2, I would then have the feedback data to see which way to go on all these "jets". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted August 16, 2002 Share Posted August 16, 2002 Originally posted by R0N:BLKMGK, I contacted the guy on who was selling the WB in the Supra Forum and asked him about it. He replied it's junk but the FJO rocks. I almost ordered one today. BTW, are you at Stoich at WOT? Paul R, Your the second person who mentioned this item, does it do datalogging?[/QB] Well, I guess there had to be a reason for his selling it huh? Stoich at WOT?! Hell no! More like 11:1-12:1. 14.7:1 at WOT and 20+lbs of boost would detonate like made and eat parts. Rich is what you want and 11.5:1 is supposedly safe but I'll likely shoot a little leaner like 12:1. As for the FJO being slow I find that very hard to believe. My datalogs are on the order of 50 samples a second - stepping through the logs I see an A/F change the MOMENT I let off the gas for a shift! Goto www.blkmgk.com/aem.nsf and DL the AEM logs then goto www/aempower.com/bbs and DL the AEM software. Pull those logs up in the datalog viewer and you'll see what I mean. If someone really wants me to I can try to take a screenshot and put it online but the logger is a MUCH better way to view them. I can also see this while driving down the road - the slightest change in throttle position immedietly changes the A/F in the display. It appears to be amazingly sensitive to change. 1/3rd of a second is a lifetime in engine time. If this sensor were that slow I'd expect that it wouldn't be anywhere near this quick to change on the display. Note that Horiba uses the SAME sensor in their box but that Motec supposedly uses a narrower band sensor in theirs according to one of the techs on the AEM board. NTK, makers of this sensor, also make a driver box for it but no display and will only sell their driver box if you swear it's for engine control and NOT for engine monitoring - they have a deal with Horiba... P.S. Pete - Holley makes a programmable ignition ya' know. You could use that to get ignition tuned if you wanted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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