Guest bastaad525 Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 Picked up the car tonite... heheh let me just say that I will definately miss how clean the engine bay was with the SU's... soooo many more wires and hoses now I had forgotten what a snakes nest the ZX's are. No biggie though if all those wires and hoses are making more power Well I drove the car home with just the downpipe off the turbo, and it was pretty loud but not too bad, drove right by a couple cops and they paid me no mind. At idle it sounds just like a V8 classic musclecar with glasspacks on there, no louder than my '68 Ford Galaxy used to be. Even when I would get on it it wasn't too bad considering the complete lack of exhaust system, if I didn't have much of a conscience regarding my fellow drivers and great desire to make my car as unnoticeable as possible, I could see myself just leaving it like that. The new transmission is nice, it's kinda notchy shifting though... my last trans it would just slide into and out of gear, I could even pull it out of gear easily w/o clutching, this one goes into and outta gear with a very strong click sensation. It has a stock shifter that has been cut WAY short... I like it it feels kinda racy Whatever he did it seems to have fixed the problems I was having with my clutch also... I had to readjust the hell out of it to get it back how I liked it, it was barely engaging when the pedal was almost all the way at the top of its travel... the exact opposite of how it used to be, and actually exactly how I felt it SHOULD be with plenty of space for adjustment. Now for the downsides. First off, this guy didn't/couldn't leave my MSD in place and completely removed it. The space where it was is taken up with some EFI stuff now so I'll have to find another place for it. I REALLY dont want to put it inside the cockpit but there is not a whole lot of room left in the engine bay. He couldn't get the stock tach working, and my aftermarket tach was running off the msd, so, no tach til I get that figured out. He did not install my air filter at all, so it's just the afm open right there near the radiator. The fit is VERY tight and the angle from the afm opening to the hole in radiator support is very wide, I'm not exactly sure how I'm gonna be able to run a pipe from the afm to my K&N. I really dont like driving it w/o the filter... I'm gonna look around on here for some engine bay pics and see how some of you guys did it, but for right now I'm stumped. When I'm at the muffler shop tommorow I'll see if they think they can do something with it. No biggie here but I guess it bothers me... the outside of the car is a total MESS now, oil all over everything. No biggie I'm gonna get it painted soon anyways but man is it nasty looking until then. Thankfully he did do as I asked and respect my interior... just had all new carpet and seats put in so I'd have freaked if he made a mess in there. Lastly, but certainly not least.... the car is running like crap and the guy can't figure out why. It ran perfectly in the ZX before he pulled it. It seems to be running either super rich or very retarded on the timing. It stumbles very badly on acceleration and will backfire occasionally, and definately does not feel like it's putting out anywhere near the torque it should be, even when the boost hits 7psi. I tried disconnecting this or that sensor, and making sure everything was on tight, but no dice. It really seems to be choking. I'll pull the spark plugs tommorow to confirm if it is running rich or not, and check the timing, but otherwise I dont know what to do here. Another reason I will miss my SU's... at least I knew how to fix them when they weren't running right. Where should the timing be for an '81 ZXT motor? I'm not even sure how/where this thing is marked... the front of the engine seems differently arranged I dont see the pulley and the little jagged metal plate with the timing #'s on it. I'm gonna have to find my old ZX Haynes Manual... if I still have it! Well... definately a mixed bag... glad to have my car back, glad to have my turbo in it, glad the interior is still clean... very upset that it's running so badly, and a bit stressed over how to hook up the air filter... and I really really dont like the idea of running w/o it. Even though I have it back... it is really far from finished... ah well... at least I can drive my own car to work tommorow and tell everyone I have a 240 ZT!!! That's gonna be the best part ah well... off to bed for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David K Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 what fuel tank did he use for the turbo swap? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 240 tank, drawing fuel from the bottom of the tank. I thought about this. But it seems to me from what I've read on here this would only create a problem when the fuel is low in the tank and/or during cornering. I have a full tank of gas so I know the thing is pulling fuel up and this is happening ALL the time, even sitting still at a light. It stumbles very badly, even at idle in neutral, if you tip the throttle in rapidly, you can hear the engine sputter and LOSE revs, almost like it wants to die for a split second, before it starts gaining revs. Again, this is EXACTLY like what my N/A ZX used to do, when the EFI was screwed and was running waaaaaaaay too rich. I have a question, I looked up the directions for my autometer tach, and it says I can just run it off the negative coil terminal for it's signal. Problem is, I forgot where the red wire goes the instructions say "to a switched 12v source" the coil positive terminal is a switched 12v source isn't it? At least this way I could have a tach w/o worrying about the msd for now. Lastly, how do you check the timing on an '81 ZXT? and do you adjust it the same was as an N/A (by turning the distributor) or another method? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 oh by the way... funny thing with the boost gauge... it spends most of it's time in NEGATIVE numbers.. at idle and cruise it sits at around -19 psi, does that sound right/good? And, I'm not planning on installing this just yet, but just so I know... I took a look at the turbo, and see the hose connected to the wastegate actuator, but can't see where the other end of it goes!! I see a tee there, but can't see well enough in there to find where the ends go... trying to figure out, when the time comes, how to install this grainger MBC. And why the hell is the AFM so damn close to the radiator?? on every pic I can find on here of turbo motors in a 240, the afm is much closer to the turbo itself... it's also right in the way of where I had the BOV welded on... grrrrrr I already had that thing cut off and rewelded once!! this is really gonna be a pain in the ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fl327 Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 ah, hes got the "new" car. I am wondering, cant you just take the car back to the people that did the work and get them to fix it? I am not saying that you cannot do it yourself, but if I paid someone good money to do work for me, I would expect it to be done right. Timing may be a bit too advanced, but seeing that you said the people doing your swap had done this before, I would have thought that they would have set it right. If it is 81-82 efi setup, you should be at 20btdc, if its 83 its 24btdc. Timing is physically set the same way, by loosening two 10mm bolts and turning the distributor and using a timing light to verify timing. If you are too advanced beyond this setting, the computer wont know whats going on, advance is digital in these cars and the ecu likes it 20btdc+-3degrees. If too much off, it will backfire. Are you backfiring through the exhaust or the afm? does the car have an external crank angle sensor? if its 81, stock they have an external CAS and that may need adjustment. Most aftermarket tachometer should get its signal from coil negative, and its power from someplace under the dash. a stock 240z tach wont work easily in this configuraton, it uses this crazy loop to geti its signal. the air filter thing, well, its very hard to get an air filter in a s30 turbo if you retain that rubber afm boot, you will either need to modify the boot or make a 3" mandrel air intake to get an air filter on there, been there. -19 at idle is fine, when you are not in boost you are usually in a vacum state, remember now youre TURBO, some of us drive more by vacum than RPM. If it is stock, you should be pulling 20-21, but 19 sounds good to me. Honestly , I think you should take the car back and have them go through it, even if you can fix it yourself. I think it is their responsibility, having said that they would take on the job, to get the car to run well. I can understand not hooking up the msd box, the tach, and the air filter thing, but I dont think it is right they let you take the car away not running right, when you paid for the install and the driveline. Also, they said that they did the swap before, I think if they've done it before they would have a better understanding of the system. Also, being a shop that would even do this kind of work, I dont think highly of the fact they would let a car that does what you explain it to do out of their hands. I also understand that you really wanted this car done and it could be that they may have rushed it to accomodate you, and missed some steps along the way. If it were me, I would be back at the shop at 8am waiting for the doors to open. I say this because I work at a shop now, and we dont let cars out that run like you just described, and if we get comebackers, we fix that s#1t. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 Agreed... I've already called the guy... unfortunately, it's gonna be hard for me to even bring my car back and leave it there to get it fixed Mind you again, this guy works from his house, it's not a shop. But I too said the exact same thing, that for the money I payed (and am still paying!) the car should be running right. I'll get a more complete picture after I hook the tach up today and check the timing, as far as what the cause might be. Knowing what RPM the engine is starting to 'come on' and get it's power at will help. Now, a stock T3 turbo should have NO lag right? I mean, if you're just cruising at a very low rpm and floor it, does it start to pull right away? Or does it take a few seconds to come on the power. I know part of this may just be me, having not driven a turbo car before ever, so I dont know what to expect. But I dont think the backfiring is supposed to be happening either way! It's backfiring thru the exhaust. I'm also going to spend some time today checking for vacuum leaks, see if that is the culprit. I'll get some carb cleaner and spray all around and see if anything happens. So... the wire going to coil positive is NOT a switched 12v source? I dont remember for certain, but I could have swore when I originally hooked up the autometer tach that that's where I had the red wire running too.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DatsunBoy77 Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 definatly check your timing. I had problems like that when i did mine. Unfortunatly i have had nothing but a string of bad luck. I need a damn garage. I have had the car since the end of january and only put 50 miles on it. Also when my timing was too far retarded i was showing about 18-19 Hg when i was at about 10 deg and after i put it up to about 24deg it is back up to 20-21 hg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 heheh I know about bad luck... been steady hitting me for 3 weeks now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DatsunBoy77 Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 yeah i finally got the car running right two weeks ago and now the ignition module went. There is not one junkyard in my area with a turbo 280zx. There uis a turbo 300zx so i may try theirs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobythevan Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 Ok, a couple things. If the car really is running super rich it could be that start wire to the ECU. I even screwed that one up, had it hooked to 12v all the time and then it runs really rich. This signal should only be hooked to 12v during cranking, it puts a lot more fuel for starting the engine. Since you didn't do the install this may be interesting to figure out. But if you are pretty certain it is running rich, this would be a good one to check into. My car would hardly idle with this hooked up and would really only run if I stayed in the throttle to compensate for the rich condition. Next, on the AFM, mine is the same way. What I have done is removed the boot from the AFM to turbo and all associated vacuum lines and I am replacing that with my own 3 inch piping and relocating the AFM to mount just below the throttle body. I use a 3" to 2.5" reducer to couple back into the inlet of the turbo. Then also run 3" pipe from the AFM out through the radiator support to air filter. My tach on 73 240z worked ok with 83 engine, just connected the tach to the coil signal. It took me a couple months to get my car running right after the swap, but I started with a junk yard engine that was in who nows what kind of condition. At least you know your engine was running good before the swap, so you'll get there. Just keep after it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jersey Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 Glad top hear you got your car back, sorry to hear it's in the condition it's in. Dont worry, you'll figure it all out and you can tell the shop how YOU fixed it...or not and charge THEM for your knowlegde on this swap. Len had good points about them releasing your Z in that condition but, i'm not sure of the deal you have/had with them. Ok, anyway... The engine bay doesn't really need to be cluttered with wiring harnesses and you can clean it up as you go. The main harness coming out of the ECCS splits into 2 harnesses about 1' from the ECCS. I smaller of the 2 harnesses is basically for power, some grounds and the fuel pump. Instead of pulling this into the engine bay and across the firewall like it was on the '82ZXT, i split it off and ran it inside the Z. That cleans it up a bit under the hood. The larger of the two harnesses runs out to the engine bay and right to the intake, and that can be very clean also if you take your time routiung. There's a few wires that split off of this harness to run to the coil and that's about it. Just some things i found when i did mine. BTW, you may have additional items that you're using that may clutter it more than what i have like - VCM, CC,...blah, blah...i'm just running the essentials needed to get by. What EFI stuff is in the way where you had your MSD and where was it mounted? Before i put the T motor in, i had my 6A mounted where the windshield washer bottle was. It will go back in the same place as soon as i get some time. Just a thought for another place to install it. Aftermarket tach will be your best bet - as Len said - coil neg and switched + from under dash or fuse block. We talked about getting the AFM in the engine compartment here - http://www.hybridz.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=23748&highlight= If i were you, and i know you're VERY excited to drive your ZT around but, i would figure out how to get some kind of filter on there before driving her any further. If one little something or other gets sucked through your T3, you're going to have a bunch of Z downtime replacing the squirrelcage. Just my opinion. Like mentioned, check your timing. Same as how you checked on your N/A motor. Static - 24btdc for 83, 20btdc for 81 & 82. Negative #'s on the gauge is hg's of vacuum. 19hg at idle is good, and your idle rpm should be at 800 although, i'm having a problem (see my other post) with idle right now and it's at 18-19hg's. When it ran perfect about a week or so ago, hg's where at 21. The hose off of the WGA t's off and both ends go to two differents spots off of the T3. I would just take the hose off of the WGA, connect your G-valve there and connect the other side of the G-valve back to the WGA. I'd suggest not doing this until you have it running right though...it'll just throw another variable into the mix of what could be wrong. Just my opinion again. Yes, it's all a PITA but, once you get it all figured out, you'll be very happy Good luck and keep us posted. Congrats again on getting it back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 Keep at it man, you'll iron it out. As for mounting the MSD, I wish I had done this: Remove the windshield cowling and mount it under there near the wiper arms. Put the cowling back on and its totally hidden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 I had mounted the MSD originally, right below the stock location of the coil, about 6" below, which is now where the AFM is. I like the idea of maybe putting it somewhere around where the windshield wiper fluid container was. I did hook up the tach to the coil and it works fine. I went to the muffler shop today and had them weld some pipe off the DP, out to where the diff is and then point it down, as some people suggested on another thread of mine. It may be just my imagination, but this seems to have only made it louder! So... gotta save up some more cash and do a real exhaust with a muffler... it's not too bad but it is way too loud for my personal taste, only because I dont like getting the looks driving down the street. But, putting this pipe on there was just a temp thing to extend the downpipe and allow me to use the car to get to work and back anyways, until there is $$$ for something better. I also had them make more room for the AFM and some pipe and installed my K&N, so that's taken care of. Dont worry about me installing that boost controller just yet... I was just curious how it hooks up, but I have no plans on installing it til the car is running perfectly. Well, I tried to check the timing today, but unlike the crank pulley on my N/A motor, this pulley doesn't have any notch to measure TDC by. I see the toothed gear behind the pulley for the CAS, but nothing to compare to the timing marks to see where it's at. Am I going to have to find TDC myself and mark the pulley myself? Or is there something I'm missing? I pulled 4 outta the six spark plugs and found that I was wrong about my first guess, the car does not seem to be running rich at all. I'll try to describe what I saw... the very tips of the plugs, the part that you bend when adjusting the plug gap, were lightish grey, powerdery looking. At first I thought this meant I"m running too lean, but, I thought lean would just leave them clean, like almost like they look when they are new but kinda burnt. These definately looked like they had been coated with light grey powder... something I have never seen before... does that still mean I"m lean? The ceramic surrounding the electrode were a little varied, from having the light grey powder look, to have a very very light black coating like they might look if you were running just a tad rich. The outer ring of the plugs, where the threaded part ends (sorry I'm so bad at describing this) had a layer of crust build up on them. I really couldn't make any sense of what I was looking at and it doesn't compare well to anything I've seen in the haynes manual. By the way I have been crusing around at very low rpms before I pulled the plugs, if that makes any difference. Funny thing is, it still backfires thru the exhaust a bit... even though the plugs dont look like it's running rich, it popped really loud thru the exhaust when I started the car up after the muffler guys were done... scared the hell outta them! So what do you guys think??? rich?? lean?? little of both??? I've checked around for vacuum leaks... the boot from the afm to turbo will definately need to be replaced, it's cracking around where the boot installs onto the turbo, I dont THINK it's gotten bad enough where it's pulling air in there, but that is one of the top things on my to-do list now, if not the top thing. I haven't been able to get to the auto store to get some spray carb cleaner and see if there is any leaking, as I pretty much ran out of time to mess with this thing for the day. I wish I had a way to test the fuel pressure... I am also going to change the fuel filter asap, as I have no idea how long this one has been used. Just to try, I did go around and double check every connector on every sensor, and I also disconnected and reconnected the wiriring harness from the ECU. No effect. Well... I gotta go get ready for work... wish I had a second car because driving this thing, which is usually a great source of enjoyment, is now just stressing me out. As always any tips are appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 Just outta curiosity... is there some way to trick the ECU to run a bit more rich just to see if it runs any better this way? How about more lean? My old n/a '80 ZX ran super rich when I first got it and would hesitate and bog the way this car is doing now (hence my first guess that this one was running rich also) and eventually, quite by mistake, I had ended up leaving my TPS, or maybe now that I think about it it might have been the 02 sensor.... disconnected, and suddenly the car ran great!! I drove the car for 5 years with the 02 disconnected. Even after installing a factory new Nissan 02, it would run crappy when ever I left it connected. Someone told me that disconnecting the O2 puts the car into closed loop mode (or maybe it was open loop *shrug* I forget) which is like a default program that doesn't take sensor readings into account... it just basically runs a flat curve... I'm sure I"m way off base on exactly how this worked, but, in the end it made my car run perfectly. Just wondering what effect it may have on this turbo motor.... either in the case I"m running too rich or too lean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kenafein240 Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 http://www.ultralightnews.ca/articles/readingsparkplugs.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kenafein240 Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 http://www.ultralightnews.ca/articles/readingsparkplugs.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted August 2, 2003 Share Posted August 2, 2003 looked at that webpage... it shows basically all the same stuff the Haynes manual does... I dont see any picture there that looks like my plugs looked when I pulled them. Well the closest one would be the pic next to the description for light ash deposits, except that one says that they would be light brown, in the case of my plugs it was light grey, so it kinda looked like the pic for too lean, except the ground is covered in this grey ashy stuff too. Also there really wasn't much built up on the electrodes themselves, just on the insulators and on the grounds. by the way... and yeah I knew this wasnt gonna work but hey it worked for my last zx so I had to try... I tried driving with a disconnected o2 and with a disconnected TPS.. oddly enough neither one seemed to make a difference... The car sputters so badly if you're just sitting at idle and jab the throttle... it's sick. I also seemed to notice that when giving it a lot of throttle to accelerate quickly, it seems to surge, yet at a steady low throttle cruise it seems to be fine. This is driving me nuts... except for vacuum leaks and timing I really have no idea where to look. No one here has an idea what the spark plug condition might mean?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted August 2, 2003 Share Posted August 2, 2003 Well I called the mechanic today, since he works from home the cool thing is that he will work on weekends... me and my g/f are heading outta town for the weekend so I'm gonna drop the car back off and he'll see if he can figure out what the problem is... barely got it back and already giving it up again but at least I know it's running so I can pretty much pick it up at anytime. It can only get better right? *promptly knocks on wood* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted August 2, 2003 Share Posted August 2, 2003 come on outta all you guys someone must have had something like this happen before.... what's the grey ash on the plugs mean? As far as the car running like crap it seems timing is the #1 suspect and/or vacuum leaks... but I've never seen anything like this ashy look on the plugs. Well at any rate gonna go drop the car off now and get outta town... cross your fingers for me y'all HOPEFULLY this guy can have it figured out and solved by tommorow night or I guess I'm still w/o a car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aarang Posted August 2, 2003 Share Posted August 2, 2003 Usually a greyish ash is a sign of lead in the gas. How old is the gas in the tank? What's the quality of your gas out that way? I would still suspect timing, though. Just my 2cents Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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