JKDGabe Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 I agree with Forrest here. While I think I understand both sides I still would like to hear how anyone has the right to force someone to sell their stuff (intellectual and physical) for x and not for what they feel like. RPMS, I agree but think it's not quite an apt comparison. Pretty much everybody is aware that vehicles are getting more complicated and harder to work on, if you bought a vehicle and got it home and then found out that it would only run on special fuel that only the dealer had and they hadn't told you but let you operate on the assumption that it ran on gas/diesel that would be unfair. I do not own a newer vehicle ('92 F350 diesel is the newest) and that's because I'm voting with my feet! I'm aware that I do not have the capability to work on new stuff and I think it's all overpriced so I don't buy it. Look at what happened with 9/11 and car prices, when enough people quit buying the dealers made some better deals until they started again. It can happen again... (hopefully not with something like 9/11 of course) Customlock, please explain how the principal of private property no longer applies now that we're not in the dark ages. It's not like they are controlling oxygen... there's plenty of ways to get by without a new car at least for a time. If people do that for a while they'll change things. Respectfully, Gabriel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 Adam Smith wrote Wealth of Nations and is generally considered the father of capitalism. His writings were very influential in the formation of our country: http://www.dallasfed.org/research/ei/ei0201.pdf I think a number of people on this thread would strongly agree with what he says. But even Smith warned about the power of monopolies and oligarchies. To think people can “vote with their feet†when there are no other options is unrealistic. Microsoft is probably one of the smartest companies ever formed (IMO). But there comes a point where consumer options become so limited that what use to be described as “competitive business practices†more closely resembles “highway robberyâ€. Not a simple issue but at some point people have a right to protect themselves. But getting back to the point of this bill, I think it’s primary emphasis is not so much specialty tools but the computer codes used to run modern cars. Try fixing a modern car without a book telling you what the engine error codes mean. The OBDII standards force manufactures to define the basic ones, but there is still a LOT of manufacture specific output that is extremely helpful if you know how to use it. I am not a professional mechanic, but from what I have read try looking up info on a computerized transmission, ABS or air bag system. It is not as straight forward as some of the engine codes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 Ya know guys, what we're talking about here is: Software. An arguement can easily be made that well established software intellectual property rights cover the computer software, diagnostic codes, etc. that the manufacturers created. Here's an even worse scenario that maybe the bill's authors didn't envision: 1. The bill passes and is signed into law. 2. The manufactures sue and eventually win on an intellectual property arguement. 3. Now the manufacturers have a legal precedent codifying their rights to keep secret all aspects of their software. 4. The EPA/DOT have to back off on their code sharing arrangement under OBD3. Guess what, things are worse then before the bill. Careful what ya'll wish for... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave240Z Posted October 24, 2003 Author Share Posted October 24, 2003 I believe John is right, there is potential for that to happen. And, software is a BIG part of this, because modern cars just don't operate without it. Heck, my Passat has no less than (3) separate computers which communicate via a CANBUS network! I still think there is potential good from this bill though. Maybe sharing my personal experience I went through with our 2000 Passat will help others understand why the modern car owner is "held hostage" by the manufacturers. At ~25K miles, our car threw a CEL, with the in-dash computer displaying "Emissions Workshop". Car ran fine, but having an ominous CEL staring at you doesn't put you (or more importantly, your wife) at ease. Of course my wife asked me to see what was wrong. OK, well all it says is "Emissions Workshop", can it be any more vauge? Rather than display the error code, VW simply displays "Emissions Workshop". I looked it up in a Haynes manual (the best I could find/afford) and it listed no less than 300 possible error codes for "Emissions Workshop". Oh JOY! Of course, the only people that can "read" the error codes are the technicians at the dealer who have access to the necessary equipment which amounts to a connector and some diagnostic software. On top of that, the dealer charges a flat $75 "diagnostic fee" which amounts to plugging their "computer" and downloading the code; a 5min. process at best. I also don't have the option of really going to any non-dealer since the equipment required to diagnose the problem is so expensive, hence nobody has it. Sort of why you don't see dyno's installed at every shop. Also, since most people are "forced" to go to the dealer with any problem because of the reasons I stated above, they are also "forced" to use the dealer to perform the repair. So I ask, is this fair? Refusing to be held "hostage", I did some research and I ended up finding a co-worker (who's also into V-dubs) who had a VAG-COM (http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/) This is a product that is sold to allow people to access their VAG car and diagnose problems and make minor adjustments. It does not amount to rewriting software, it simply allows a user access to pre-defined parameters. Sort of like how you have access to Windows as a user to configure and modify the program to suit your tastes, but not enough access to allow you to alter the source code. With this "tool", we were able to download the error code, which told me a coolant sensor was out of range. Turns out, this is a known defect in these cars. Went to the dealer, paid my $7 for a sensor and O-ring and replaced it myself in 1 hour, problem solved. Other people, who are not so lucky have spent $300 for the same fix; $75 diagnostic + $7 part + $200 labor + taxes. Again, seem fair? Do you want to have to pay $300 to have a SENSOR replaced? All that said, I don't think people realistically expect manufacturers to divulge their entire software program, but they should at least make some manuals, diagnostic software available i.e. VAG-COM (for a price) to the masses so they can perform basic work on the car. Ultimately letting the people decide WHOM they will have work on their car without being forced to go to the manufacturer for everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awd92gsx Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 Hmm...as a dealership service technician (the enemy?) I find these views very interesting... 1st...define reasonable? If any of you have ever had to buy tools from "The Snap On Guy" then reasonable takes on an entirely new meaning...a $20 socket is nothing off of "The Truck" where a pair of pliars can you run you $50. 2nd...all TSBs/Recall information is already available to the general public (by law). I believe it can be accessed through http://www.nhtsa.com 3rd...As far as I know, most vehicles do not need to be emission tested for the first five years in most emission tested areas. As far as I know, all manufacturers make their service manuals available over the counter for all of their vehicles. If paying $200 for a service manual sounds unreasonable, remember, the dealership has to buy them just like everybody else. It's up to the customer to decide if buying a $200 manual is cost effective...however, a service manual is just a tool...you have to know how to use it...besides, $200 isn't that much for a tool (especially if you buy from the Snap-On truck). 4th...You can buy tools, manuals, computers, racks, machines, etc...but, you can't buy experience. Case in point...you can take your 1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse to Joe's Auto to have them figure out why it doesn't start...a fuel pump and computer later it gets towed to a Mitsubishi dealership where a $13 dollar relay and 5 minutes fixes the problem because we've seen 1000 of them go bad. 5th...Mitsubishi (and other manufacturers) spend millions of dollars a year on training and distributing information to the dealerships...The dealers have to pay for the information, so why should a non-dealer get it for free? The real question is... Why doesn't KFC have to divulge their 11 secret herbs and spices? That's what I really want to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.