Guest Anonymous Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 I wouldn't hesitate for a second to have a Z car racer like John Coffey drive my car around a track with me in the passenger seat. I'm sure that would be an enlightening experience!!! And if John screwed up your car, I bet he would step up and help repair it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1 Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 WoooHooo!!!!! The famous BMW "money shift". I've know of several guys doing this, with the same results. Supposedly it happens because the rubber in the motor mounts and trans mounts allow enough movement that it's really easy to catch second. I've personally seen it twice, and heard of several other instances. Legally I suspect it's a gray area, and the outcome would depend on the whims of the judge or jury. However, if that instructor has any balls at all, he should offer to pay for at least half of the repairs. If he has a M3, he should be aware of the possibility of the money shift, and take some responsibility, even though the owner asked him to drive the car and also accepted some responsibility himself. Mark, do you know the story of Bob's 911, the guy with the light blue one that pits close to where we do at CMP? Similar, except rolled three times. I'm not gonna drive anyone else's car at the track. And nobody's gonna drive mine but me. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 John, I had not heard of the 911 story. Anyone hurt? Details? It was Will's red M-3 that got trashed. Its in the shop now being reapired. I'm with you, I don't drive others cars at the track and NO ONE drives mine at the track. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nic-Rebel450CA Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Well, certainly insurance is going to be out the window because of the exclusions on insurance for speed contests and such. If there was no written waiver then the friend certainly did not release any liability from the instructor. What it will all come down to is the rules of the track/school. There is going to be somewhere in writing that says "by using the track..." that will basically be the only legal release of liability. If it says by using the track, you agree to release any liability from the staff and instructors, then your friend is out of luck. With the possible exception that this was not an accidental incident, it was an ignorant mistake. You cannot accidentally shift from 4th to 2nd (such as you could accidentally shift from 4th to 1st because 1st and 3rd are both at the top of the H, that could be an accident). The shift from 4th to 2nd was an intentional move and was something that was planned. Since any knowledgable driver would be able to tell when you could downshift that far and when you cannot, this could easily constitute negligence. Damn, how many times have I been told I should be a lawyer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Driving schools are covered by almost every insurance company, even if they are on a track. I've seen lots of people shoot for 4th and hit 2nd. Happened to a friend of mine in her 240. She exploded the clutch, and the water pressure got so high inside the head that it actually popped about a dime size hole in the side of the head. Coolant was peeing everywhere. The possibility of missing 4th and hitting reverse is the reason for the reverse lockout feature in the ZX 5 speed. Not necessarily "ignorant". Just a mistake. John Coffey and jt1 even noted that the 3 series is known for this, so the gates must be very close together and hard to feel. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nic-Rebel450CA Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 I've seen lots of people shoot for 4th and hit 2nd. I thought this was a case of downshifting from 4th to 2nd intentionally. Was this a case of upshifting from 3rd to 4th and hitting 2nd? If so, that could be an accident, but I thought this was a downshift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 No the incident we're talking about was trying to upshift to 4th hitting 2nd instead. In my case, the instructor told my brother to downshift to second when he should have held 3rd. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
majik16106 Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 well thats what im getting at, i wouldnt just let any instructor drive my car around a track, i have the upmost respect for those guys, and they know a lot more about driving than most people, they also have more experience for the most part, but that doesnt mean they are equipped to driving a car like mine. Paul Reed was one of the fastest e-production drivers in the southeast a few years back, he could absolutely fly in a Z. so one of his buddies, w/ a 350rwhp 3.1 turbo let him drive it to show him what the car could do, he was completely unaccustomed to that type of car and nearly through it through a concrete barrier. It happen, people who work on hondas, turbo and S/c and whatever arent gonna be real comfy in a 500rwhp 454 big block chevelle. I dont know that i would just let ANY instructor jump into my car because i dont know what his history is. Thats not saying i wouldnt let anyone drive my car, just any instructor ive just met. I have no doubt that John can drive the piss out of a car, and im not saying im better than him, but unless he has my car all day long, i doubt he jump right in and drive it like i can.. or normally that would be the case. The bmw shifting problem is known, maybe not to that instructor because he was never in one, or drove one balls out like he did. 4th gen supras are notorious for spinning around on first time drivers because the sequential set up acts really wierd on them. I knew a local guy who bought a supra with a single conversion without ever having driven one, he had it down pretty good within a month, after a while someone asked him about a problem he was having with his bpu TT. the guy took it for a drive and in the middle of an intersection was doign donuts... does that make any more sense? I just wouldnt trust someone to do something because thier name tag says they can.... All ASE certified mechanics fix problems the cheapest and most correct way right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1 Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Bob's 911 is a really nice gutted, caged, big braked, stroked & built to the gills track car. Straight & nice with a good paint job in and out. He was down at Roebling back in the spring and wasn't satisfied with the car's handling, so he asked a good friend who is a porsche mechanic to take it for a few laps and see what he thought. The friend got loose out of 8, went off to the left, hit a swale and rolled it three times. Not injured, but over 20K in damage to the car. Track only car with no insurance. Bob was highly pissed and wanted the friend to pay for the repairs. Friend basically says " I can't afford it. Sorry." Lots of harsh words and legal bills later, the two previously good friends are bitter enemies and never speak. Bob got some amount of money, 6 or 7 K, out of the friends shop insurance, but not nearly enough to pay for the damages. When you go out on the track, anything can happen. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 When you go out on the track, anything can happen. I just wouldnt trust someone to do something because thier name tag says they can.... Agreed. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdab Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 They instructor should step up. Why is he driving all out if he is just showing the line. We all know where "redline" is Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 When I'm acting as an instructor I will rarely drive a student's car; I often refuse even when they ask. Mostly for the issues we're discussing here but, also, I don't think a student learns as well unless they are behind the wheel. If a student doesn't "get" a specific point I'm trying to make, I might then drive the car just to show the student what I mean, but I always stick to that point and I don't try to run a "fast lap" to impress. I want the student to leave the event having learned something, gained confidence in their abilities and their car, and had a lot of fun. I want them to leave thinking they can kick my ass on the track. Hopefully they come back and start competing. Now, let's turn this discussion around. What if the student went off the track after ingnoring the instructor's advice, wrecked, and injured the instructor. Should the student pay for the instructor's medical bills even if the insurance bails? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 What if the student went off the track after ingnoring the instructor's advice, wrecked, and injured the instructor. Should the student pay for the instructor's medical bills even if the insurance bails? No. Everyone is at the track driving and instructing of their own volition. It is a potentially dangerous thing to do for both people, and for the car. They all chose to ignore the risk and do it anyway, so every person should be responsible for what happens to their person or their property. We don't live in a video game, and people need to start stepping up and taking responsibility for their risk taking, not just in this instance but in all kinds of situations we deal with. If you aren't making that conscious choice to put yourself at risk when you go to the racetrack, you shouldn't be there in the first place. EDIT--Should the student pay? It would be a nice thing to do. Should the student be FORCED to pay. No. Just my opinion, Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
majik16106 Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 so does the intructor who, lets say, downshifts, locks up the wheels swerves and flips the bmw, paralyzing the student have to pay? its an instructor's job to know a limit, when a limit isnt clearly known he should be able to recognize that at least and not have his student push it. but the same goes a student, most peopel who are attending a driver school for the first time wont be comfortable pushign a car to limits that most instructors would.. and therefore shouldnt listen to the instructor, i dont think the student who was told.. "go for second" should have been a) told to in the first place and done it if he felt it was wrong. I can think of a few occasions where i took a passenger out on RA, and my friends would be like.. go faster.. you can.. blah blah.. and i ignore them. I can also think of times when they ignore me, and im glad they do because i may have been wrong. There is no reason for an instructor to be pushing a car to those limits when it A) isnt there, and has nothing to do with the instruction.... In this case.. id put the blame on him, the student may have made a mistake by asking.. but the instructor could have done several things in this incident to avoid the damage, like saying no, being more careful, or most of all sticking to lesson and driving slow to show lines instead of racing down straights... John you may know more about this as you officially instruct.. but what good does it do to follow a line at 75mph with a student hanging on to thier belts, eyes shut, so that they miss everything. If i were an instructor.. id probably decline to drive a students car 99% of the time, infact at every track day or auto x where a friend has asked me to drive i have almost always declined, the few times i would drive or have driven have been instances were i was challgnged and i made it clear to the owner that if i busted up the car pushing it, it was to be fixed by them, and if i busted me up pushing it, it would be fixed by me. that way i am only responsible for me, that instructor was responsible for that car at the time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest smoov280zx Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 You guys make good points about most instructors not being professional drivers. I still think if you label yourself as an instructor for anything, you should have the courtesy to admit when you make a mistake and face the blame for it. If a doctor amputated the wrong arm, so you ended up losing both, you wouldn't expect him to take any responsiblity for what he did? Maybe it's your fault for trusting the doctor with a knife in the first place. I didn't realize that to be an instructor at a track school, you didn't need to be certified. You can't call yourself a teacher in any other occupation without some sort of test. Personally I think "instructors" should hold at least 2 class licences, maybe a solo and a full competition, that are valid for the cars they are claiming to be instructors in. This isn't meant to be an insult to those of you who do serve as teachers at track days, but this situation has definitely changed my opinion of "driving schools" in general. I guess I'll have to find the line on my own, the "teacher" will not be touching anything to the left of the center console if he is not responsible for his own actions. BTW, I'm an instructor now, just toss me the keys to your D-Type. I'm a professional and it all your fault. One more time, this is not directed at anybody here. Just venting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Personally I think "instructors" should hold at least 2 class licences, maybe a solo and a full competition, that are valid for the cars they are claiming to be instructors in. Some track schools do just that, although the make of the car isn't really important (competition licenses are for a sanctioning body, not a vehicle make). Others don't require competition licenses to be an instructor and in some cases don't even check out the purported resume of instructors. Like anything else in the world, you have good driving schools and bad driving schools. John you may know more about this as you officially instruct.. but what good does it do to follow a line at 75mph with a student hanging on to thier belts, eyes shut, so that they miss everything. Your example is a situation where an instructor has misjudged his student's abilities. The instructor needs to bring the pace down so the student is less afraid (but not actually comfortable) and can pay attention. If the instructor feels the student is still over his head at a pace that's too slow to be safe on the track, time to pull in, give the student his money back, and ask them to leave. I've done that with a student (a wife) who was talked into doing a school by her husband. I also lectured the husband for about 10 minutes privately after he started berating his wife for not driving fast enough. But, sometimes students don't listen. I've had to take the wheel in a turn when a student "froze" and started to drive straight off the track. I've also made a student stop the car off the track and got out and walked back to the pits because the student wanted to play Luke Duke in his new Z06 Corvette. He was told to go home and he didn't get his money back. Weeks later his car was on http://www.wreckedexotics.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 One last rant on this then I'm done. Starting to get frustrated... If you think your putting yourself in the hands of an idiot, don't let them drive your car. Don't take their advice. Don't let them in the car with you. Period. I've seen ONE instructor who fit this description. He was passing other instructors in his Mustang on the parade laps!!! I didn't let him instruct me, and he was never in my car. All of the instructors I've had at the track were pros. Every one of them had an SCCA license, and was a sponsored racer with at least 5 years experience in roadracing. If you've never been to a big track before, these people will REALLY help your driving. Anyone with no experience would be silly to think that they have nothing to learn, or that the risk of getting on the track WITHOUT instruction is less than the risk of getting the instruction. They aren't perfect, and they can make mistakes, like telling my bro to go for 2nd. I don't hold that against the instructor though. If anything I hold it against my bro for doing it despite the fact that he thought it was the wrong thing to do, and myself for letting 2 people who didn't know my car as well as I do run around the track in my Z. Ultimately I put them in that situation, so I was responsible. If I was asking for legal advice or getting treated by a doctor that is another situation altogether. The driving instructor's job is not to ensure your well being. It is to show you how to push the limits of your car's performance, and your own skill. No one made me go to the track. No one made me ask my brother-in-law if he wanted to go. Every time I've been to the track I decided to go there because I wanted to. Last, if you don't want anything bad to happen to you or your car, I suggest parking it in a concrete garage with a controlled temp, and staying in your house or walking from place to place. You'll be much safer... although as Al Pacino said in Heat "You can get killed walking your doggy!" Also not directed at anyone: I am responsible for me, who is responsible for you? Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 I've talked with three different sets of "instructors". The Dallas Sports Car Club guys that are SCCA certified instructors will ride in you r car and observe, the folks from Boby Archer Motorsports wil lap your car a couple times to ensure it "handles safely", and the Panoz people will watch you from the side of the road. I had once thought about letting someone take my car out on the track to "feel it out" but I'm having thoughts about that now. I think I would rather retain responsibility for the car. I am not an overconfident driver so the odds of me getting into real trouble or seriously damaging the car on a track are marginal. I'll pay for the observer and drive the car myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 I had once thought about letting someone take my car out on the track to "feel it out" but I'm having thoughts about that now. There's a big difference between driving instruction and track testing a car for setup purposes. If you're asking an instructor to drive your car to feel its "setup" and/or offer you setup advice, then you can expect it to be driven at its absolute limit. There's a good chance it will be damaged to some degree: flat spotted tires, possible engine overrev, worn clutch, off-track damage, etc. That comes with the territory when diving a car at and beyond its limits (FYI... you have to drive it beyond its limits to find them out). When Erik Messley was setting up the brakes and suspension on my 240Z at Buttonwillow we went through two sets of tires, a set of brake pads, and I had to change all the fluids after. That was in two hard hours of driving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest smoov280zx Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 I'm calling it quits with this one too. Also not directed at anyone: I am responsible for me' date=' who is responsible for you? Jon[/quote'] Tell that to the instructor. (the one who wrecked the gearbox himself) I'll stop repeating myself now. Nice to be able to go on a board and have a discussion without it turning into a flame war. Guess that's what separates hybridz from the ricers. That and a little experience... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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