Guest Nic-Rebel450CA Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 How did you all pick the engine you decided to swap? The only thing I am certain of is that I want it to be a high rpm Chevy. The engines I am trying to decide between are: 302 (Built by putting a 283 crank into a Gen 1 350 block with bearing spacers) 302 (Possibly able to be built by putting an L99 (4.3L V8 ) crank into an LT1) 265 (L99 4.3L V8 from the mid 90's caprice) 283 (An old Gen 1 283 engine) I am not too interested in a 283, but I might as well consider it because of costs. I was pretty dead set on building the first style 302 because it should be pretty easy to build, and not a very expensive way to go. The biggest advantage I see of a 302 over a 265 or 283 is the bore. More cubes, as well as the ability to use 350 style heads with bigger valves. The second style 302 was something that I started thinking of because this would be made of newer Chevy stuff, and wouldnt require bearing spacers, but might end up being more expensive. (I dont know, how much does an LT1 go for, and how much could I get back by selling the LT1 crank?) I want about 300HP at the wheels, and might go for more HP in the future, possibly by supercharging. I know I do not want anything bigger than a 302, and I will not consider a 327, 350, 383, or 400 no matter how much someone tries to convince me. I am not really into racing, so I am not looking at serious competition, or drag, or anything that would make me go for lots of HP. I just want a fun daily driver with an exotic aspect of being high reving. The L28 that is in the Z right now is almost enough power for me, so I really dont need to worry about trying to make gobs of torque or really high HP. How much difference is the ability to use 4.0" bore cylinder heads really going to help, or, how much is it really going to hurt not being able to use 4.0" bore cylinder heads? Anyone have any insight, advice, or just plain desire to see any one of the above in a Z? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Phil1934 Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 No point in considering a Gen III if you do not want EFI as it doesn't make sense to buy an engine with it and discard it. Are you willing to run a junkyard engine or do you want to rebuild? That's the only way I'd go as I've never had a junkyard or cheap mass rebuilder engine last over a year. Maybe you want the 262 CID V6? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fl327 Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 "I want about 300HP at the wheels, and might go for more HP in the future, possibly by supercharging. I know I do not want anything bigger than a 302, and I will not consider a 327, 350, 383, or 400 no matter how much someone tries to convince me. I am not really into racing, so I am not looking at serious competition, or drag, or anything that would make me go for lots of HP. I just want a fun daily driver with an exotic aspect of being high reving. The L28 that is in the Z right now is almost enough power for me, so I really dont need to worry about trying to make gobs of torque or really high HP." Sounds like you want a built Ford 302/289, it would be easier to meet all the goals of above and easier to get a good 5 speed trans behind one of them. I am a Chevy guy when it comes to my brand of Domestic racing, so I probably wouldnt never ever ever never use one in a build, but I wouldnt overlook it either. My buddies would never let me live it down if I came out Ford powered, oh I could just see it now High rpm Chevy is going to cost High rpm $, bottom line. I can see taking apart and lt1 and all the custom work turning into a nightmare, but perhaps making the fastest combo, since it would have reverse cooling for higher compression that the engine would need, and its a great motor overall. 283 wouldnt be bad I guess, steel crank and bottom end assemblys are pretty easy to get where I live, they have them on an exchange basis so that would be cool. Forged components mandatory for a high revver, at least for me. If I were doing something like this I would "settle" for a 327 and 7000rpm, but you wont consider it so its dead issue. Did you already pick up another z? I gave the older owner of the other z a visit the other day and told him about the car, he got kinda sad. He sends his condolensces (sp). 300rwhp is a far cry from the L28e that was in your z though, that car had about 145 at the crank, but its decieving since you its a 70 and it goes a longer way in the lightest of the early z family, plus the later zx engines make peak torque a lot lower than the earlier years of the L. 300 with some hook and youre looking at low 12s, maybe high 11. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 300 RWHP is nearly 350 flywheel HP vs the 145 flywheel hp of the stock L28. That's more than just a 'Little more" than the L28. 300 RWHP is not simple to come by from the engines you are describing. Mostly they were originally around 185-225 rwhp. Considering boosting the engine? I thought you weren't into racing - that you just want a daily driver with a bit more zip? Sounds to me like you need to rethink your priorities. Maybe you should just find a turbo L28? Personnally, since I was going to all the trouble & expense of the conversion I went for the best technological option for daily driving which is a gen III fuel injected, aluminum block, computter controlled, coil on plug engine. I get 311 RWHP, 326 lb-ft of torque, 20+ mpg, excellent drivability, and it's as reliable as a rock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nic-Rebel450CA Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 Maybe you want the 262 CID V6? Oh ya, and it has to be a V8. Gotta have the 3.0" stroke, and gotta be a V8. Sounds like you want a built Ford Nope, gotta be a Chevy. I did consider the 5.0 Ford for a short time, but it just not what I want. Fords are who I aim to beat. Too many mustangs in Sacramento with big egos and little... High rpm $ Noted, expected, and planned for. This is the exotic aspect of my Z that I will be sinking my money into. Did you already pick up another z? No, I am still hoping this Z can be saved. Should be able to see soon, I believe the police report is in now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fl327 Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 Thought you werent into racing? Hope that car can be saved. Im happy to see that you didnt list the dz 302 engine, smart guy knowing even when they pull em out, they dont go cheap! My old boss used to have a 302 z28 way back when that shifted at 8500, but that was the old days of good gas and cheap gas, and something stupid like 12 cr. Sounds like you know the answers to your own questions, will it be ready by april? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Juday Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 will it be ready by april? Like, April 3rd? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fl327 Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 Heck yes, would be a perfect prequel to MSA show, which I am also trying to attend, both would be firsts for me! So, um, uh, its ashphault over at rio vista? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nic-Rebel450CA Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 300 RWHP is nearly 350 flywheel HP vs the 145 flywheel hp of the stock L28. That's more than just a 'Little more" than the L28. ..... I thought you weren't into racing - that you just want a daily driver with a bit more zip? Sounds to me like you need to rethink your priorities......Maybe you should just find a turbo L28? I am aware that it is much more than what the stock L28 has. (BTW, the underhood sticker says 183HP, I believe). I guess I didnt really explain clearly. All I really NEED is a bit more than what the L28 provides. What I would LIKE is about 300HP at the wheels. This means that I would be happy with an engine that provides something in between. I am not into racing, but I would like to have a quick car. I am not someone like some of the fellows on here that want to try to put 400+ ft/lbs of torque to the ground in their Z. A turbo L28 is nothing like what I want. It is neither Chevy, nor a V8, nor does it have a short stroke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 No offense, but this whole thread doesn't make a lot of sense to me. All people can do is offer advice and information. What you do with it is up to you. No one is going to try to "convince" you of anything. If you want to put a 4 banger out of a pinto in your Z it is no concern of ours. Like a couple of other guys have said, you need to figure out what you want. By destroking a 350 to get a 302 you are telling me that 1) you don't care about cost and 2) you really don't care about performance because you are willing to pay more money to get less engine. Also you need to figure out wheter you want a supercharger or not before you build. The optimum CR and cam for a blower engine is different than a NA one. BTW, why are you even considering a blower if you aren't into performance? Just because an engine has a smaller displacement doesn't make it any more capable of reving. My dad had a Caprice with a 265 engine. This is an encono engine for old men. I doubt the bottom end wil support much "reving" and like you said, the small bore will make heads flow restrictive. If you want to rev, then you are going to have to invest money in some serious valve train components for starters. A solid bottom end with lightweight components is next. And if you want the engine to live you had better pay attention to the oiling system. That kind of stuf is going to be more expensive to come by if you pick an odd ball engine. If you really want a 302 then do it right. Scat still sells 302 rotating assemblies. Not cheap, but I think you almost have to go this route if you want "300 HP at the rear wheels" from a 302, let alone the numbers you will get out of a blown motor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nic-Rebel450CA Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 Just because an engine has a smaller displacement doesn't make it any more capable of reving. No... but a shorter stroke does. The question I am focusing on is mainly based on the technical characteristics of the engine and how much difference the ability to use 4.0" bore heads is going to make. 300HP at the rear wheels can be achieved with any SBC as long as it is built well' date=' and can even be done with a JY engine. Keep in mind too that an engine that revs to 8,000 or 9,000 rpm that makes 300HP at the rear wheels is not as much of a challenge as an engine with a redline of 6500 making 300HP at the rear wheels. you really don't care about performance because you are willing to pay more money to get less engine Different engine, not less engine. Oh, and there is a huge difference between being interested in performance, and being a dedicated racer shooting for 11's in the quarter mile by trying to put down 400+ ft/lbs of torque. All I was saying when I mentioned that I am not really into racing is that I am not as nuts for HP as others on the forum. I mentioned this because any time that I make a mention of a 302 someone has to argue that I should build a 383. Certainly, I am interested in performance... That is why all of us are here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 Just because an engine has a smaller displacement doesn't make it any more capable of reving. No... but a shorter stroke does. I am afraid I have to disagree with that statement. A shorter stroke may help' date=' but it is far from the determining factor. Valve float and lack of airflow will kill your top end long before the crankshaft geometry becomes an issue. Keep in mind too that an engine that revs to 8,000 or 9,000 rpm that makes 300HP at the rear wheels is not as much of a challenge Cut you off mid sentence, but making an engine that turns 9000 RPM is a REAL challange. If your valve train is not up to it, then your bottom end is not going to be the limiting factor. Like someone said above, 300 HP at the rear wheels means 350+ HP at the crank. That is a nice strong 350, but remember you want to give up 48 cubic inches. The 302 in the 1969 Z28 was conservatively rated at only 290 HP, and I think that was gross and not net. With todays better heads it may not be as much of a challange as it was in 1969, but to get that much HP out of a 302 will require a lot of cam. You will also have less bottom end than the 350. All in all, the engine will not be as streetable (and cost considerably more) then a comparable 350. I know where you are coming from. My original goal for my Z was a 302, mainly because I had a buddy in high school with a 302 Z28. That car was awsome. But, since coming here and talking to people like grumpyvette, I became a convert. The only reason people use to build 302's was because class rules limited their displacement. In fact I think that was the only reason Chevy put one in the Camaro in the first place. But if you throw out the Hot Rod magazine recipies for building torque monsters to put in 3600 pound muscle cars, then you can build a large displacement engine that runs well at high RPM yet still retains enough low end torque to make it enjoyable in traffic. If you are dead set on a high reving engine, then you may want to do some homework on what it will take to build one that will live. Like fl327 said, if you want to turn 8000+ RPM, then you had better stick to a forged bottom end. This is a favorite topic of Grumpyvette. Go back and look as some of his posts to see what the challanges are going to be. I still think you will need to forego the junk yard option and get something like a Scat crank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dpiatkin Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 if you want high revs and lots of HP then maybe look into a Northstar Caddy engine ?? it has a 9500 redline(???) to begin with and can be bumped to over 400 hp at the block with a mild cam change I think.....?? It would require a lot of work to hammer it all out but it would be a GM engine and very high reving with the power your looking for with minor mods..... but getting it to work in a "Z" will be a horse of another color all together. I believe there is someone allready on the forum who is attempting this swap trya search if it sounds at ll interesting..... it would definately be exotic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dpiatkin Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 its also an aluminium block for weight savings !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dpiatkin Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 also right around 300 cubes, give or take..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dpiatkin Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 Okay, just did a little checking..... the Northstar has a 7500 rpm stok redline that can be bumped up with new rockers and springs etc.. to reach 9500 rpm's Sorry for the mis info earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dpiatkin Posted December 25, 2003 Share Posted December 25, 2003 you will loose HP to your drivetrain (obviously) and you will need to subtract out 15-20% of your gross block HP to arrive at a ROUGH guesstimate of your RWHP.... other stuff figures in also such as parasitic drag from A/C and other accessories, but this will get you close enough to know what block HP you are really shooting for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nic-Rebel450CA Posted December 25, 2003 Share Posted December 25, 2003 I thought of the Northstar before, but it really is not what I am looking for. I specifically am looking for opinions of the engine builds mentioned in the first post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zfan Posted December 25, 2003 Share Posted December 25, 2003 If you want power and rpm's then go with a DZ302 or 327. My good friend had a DZ 302 in his 59 Austin Healy 3000 with a 5 speed gear box. It was very impressive to say the least. No snail in that car, solid 12 second car with a solid roller cam and trick flow heads, victor jr., 650 dp. 10.5 to 1 comp. He would turn 7000 to 8000 all the time,how sweet the sound! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Forty Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 It's my understanding that British TVR's use a destroked small block that turns close to 9000 rpms. Look to England laddie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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