QWKDTSN Posted August 26, 2002 Share Posted August 26, 2002 Here is the first post... http://www.hybridz.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=002569 I went back to Southland today and brought all my parts. Bellhousing, fork, pivot ball, TO bearing, pressure plate, clutch disk. Kim, the guy who I've been working with, put the pressure plate on their $30,000 machine and tested it - I could see that it was definitely releasing and the machine had three seperate readouts for points around the pressure surface (all very similar). I think it recorded 2,213 lbs of pressure and the TO bearing movement required was 3/8". He checked the pressure plate and there's basically no runout so I know that's not bent or anything. He confirmed that the fork, pivot, and throwout bearing are correct and basically said that it comes down to my hydraulic system - what I didn't realy want to hear because I thought I had troubleshot my hydraulic system completely. My fork has a ratio of about 5.5 inches from where the slave pushes to the pivot, and 4.5 inches from the pivot to the throwout bearing. He said that with my 0.5" to 3/4" of slave throw that I should be releasing properly. I really don't know what's going on... I shouldn't have to go with a 1" clutch master, should I? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Juday Posted August 27, 2002 Share Posted August 27, 2002 Ok, heres a thought: Did you have the clutch disk in backwards? Easy to do, don't feel dumb. Also, take the disk by itself and slide it onto the splines on the input shaft of the tranny. See if there is any binding. If we covered these things in the first post, sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QWKDTSN Posted August 27, 2002 Author Share Posted August 27, 2002 Dan, thanks for the thoughts, no the clutch disk wasn't in backwards. That was one of the first things I thought. Two, no, there's no binding on the tranny shaft. It seems like something's just not right, an angle isn't right or something's not getting enough travel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike kZ Posted August 27, 2002 Share Posted August 27, 2002 Did you check your throwout bearing? Like stated in the past post there are different length bearings. A longer bearing may make the differnce. Did you try adjusting the rod that goes into the master from the clutch peddle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Juday Posted August 27, 2002 Share Posted August 27, 2002 This problem is stating to drive ME nuts. And it's not even my car! Ok, lets evaluate this thing logically. All the parts from your left foot to the clutch fork are there just to more that fork. In the first thread you said the fork moves 1/2" to 3/4". The shop you took it to said 3/8" is all that is needed to disingage it. So, any problem is not in the hydrulics or pedal. Let's all focus on the inside of the bellhousing folks. There, I'm out of ideas. But at least let's not waste time troobleshooting the parts that are working properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike C Posted August 27, 2002 Share Posted August 27, 2002 You can adjust the pivot ball in the bellhousing on some. Could it be that this is out of spec? Is it possible that you are OVER centering the clutch? How does it behave only partially depressed? I'm with Dan, this is buggin' me no end! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QWKDTSN Posted August 28, 2002 Author Share Posted August 28, 2002 I have the shop's guarantee that the throwout bearing is correct. The rod is set up so that there's no play before pushing in the clutch master cylinder The fork moves 1/2 to 3/4 inch and the throwout bearing needs to move 3/8 inch.. with my pedal ratio it should be disengaging. I'm positive now that everything inside the bellhousing is correct. The pivot ball is non-adjustable. Basically, everything's correct. I haven't had the clutch release at all, at any point in the pedal's travel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted August 28, 2002 Share Posted August 28, 2002 Does the clutch pivot ball screw out, and if so, can you shim it with a washer under it to get a bit more angle on it? Your using the T5 right? Grasping at straws here too, sorry your having so much trouble with it. Its got to be very close to disengaged I would think. Sorry I can't be more help, I've only seen the Ford T5 bellhousing and we changed the pivot on that altogether to the other side with a special pivot block they use on early ford T5 conversions to make it a mechanical push type clutch. (on the mustang T5 its a pull type for the cable and the pivot is on the passenger side) Regards, Lone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest greimann Posted August 28, 2002 Share Posted August 28, 2002 Nion, describe the symptoms of why you believe the clutch is not disengaging, and answer a few questions. 1. Can you dry shift the car into all of the gears? (engine off, foot off of the clutch). You should be able to. 2. Are you doing your engagement test with the engine running? If so, how does it feel or sound? 3. Can you dry shift into 1st and start the car in gear? You should be able to if you don't have a neutral safety switch. Where I am going with this is, maybe this is not a clutch problem, but a transmission / shifter problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QWKDTSN Posted August 28, 2002 Author Share Posted August 28, 2002 1) No, usually not. Once in a while it'll slot into all the gears when I've moved the car around a bit but most of the time no. However, I can dry shift the tranny into gear right now, with it removed from the motor. Turning the shafts I can see that all the gears work. It's a newly rebuilt tranny and I think it should be OK. 2) With the engine running, I'll try to put it in first gear. It'll be just too hard to push in - it feels exactly like trying to put it in gear without putting in the clutch (not disengaging). When I try to put it in reverse (no syncros) it'll go ghhhhcckk gkkkkk gkkk and grind because the clutch isn't disengaging. 3) If I put in the clutch and slot it into first, and hold the clutch in, and turn over the motor, the car rolls forward as if the clutch isn't in at all. All signs seem to point to the clutch not disengaging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VRJoe Posted August 28, 2002 Share Posted August 28, 2002 A few tests should help us to sort this out: 1) Based on your measurement of the fork you'll need a min. of 5/8 travel at the slave cylinder rod. Check the actual travel when installed, have someone depress the clutch while you take the measurement at the slave cylinder. 2) is the fork free to travel its full distance or is there something hanging it up. 3) Are you sure the fork is not flexing Let's start with these, with any luck we'll get it from here. It could as simple as the wrong length fork. If this doesn't work you may have to ship it to Mike Kelly for his get together in Sept. that way a whole bunch of us can brainstorm at the same time . If shipping won't work I guess a conference call might - VRJoe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike kZ Posted August 28, 2002 Share Posted August 28, 2002 Can you shine a flashlight through the fork hole and see anything? If you can see the bearing, have someone push in the clutch and try to see if there is any play before the bearing touches the fingers of the pressure plate. I know the guy says the bearing is correct, but it sure sounds like that is the problem. Are you sure the fork is connected to the bearing right? It has to be floating in the slot, not on the rim of that slot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
80LS1T Posted August 28, 2002 Share Posted August 28, 2002 This may sound stupid but have you made sure that ALL the air is out of the system? Bang on all the hydralics lightly to make sure you get all the air bubbles out. Just a thought Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QWKDTSN Posted August 29, 2002 Author Share Posted August 29, 2002 I FIGURED IT OUT. My clutch slave was broken. I'm 99% positive that this is why I wasn't getting full travel. It's just out of chance that I pulled the boot off the slave and all the parts inside fell out. I was actually thinking of shimming the pushrod somehow and decided to take it apart. Check out the difference in the new slave, left, and the old slave, right. The picure was quick and not very good but you can see that it's cracked, and the crack goes a very long ways. The clip was definitely not held in there very securely. I can definitely see how this would keep the slave from functioning as it should. Hopefully once I put it together again everything will be good to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QWKDTSN Posted September 1, 2002 Author Share Posted September 1, 2002 Partial success! I got the clutch to release! With the car in gear and the pedal all the way down, you can turn the tailshaft of the transmission and hear the disk dragging. Unfortunately, the complete lock-up point is only about an inch, maybe two, from the floor. Hopefully I'll be able to work with the pedal and the MC linkage to get a little more throw to guarantee complete release and get a comfortable takeup point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim240z Posted September 1, 2002 Share Posted September 1, 2002 Steve, If you are positive that all the air is out of the system, then try moving the pushrod pivot point closer to the top of the clutch pedal (closer to the pedal pivot point), thet should give the pushrod less travel through the pedals arc. Hope this makes sense. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QWKDTSN Posted September 1, 2002 Author Share Posted September 1, 2002 COMPLETE SUCCESS! I got on my back on the driver's seatand stuck my head under the dash (my favorite place to work... not) and discovered something... There's a rubber bumpstop that limit's the pedal's travel upwards. HMMM sez I, adjusting it back to the limit, then adjusting the pivot fork linkage back to take the slop out. I effectively raised the pedal up, giving me a good extra inch of pedal travel, gaining a lot of extra fluid movement in the MC. As soon as I had it tight I put my foot down to the floor... bingo. I could actually feel it disengage through the pedal, as it gets hard to push while you're pushing it down, then suddenly easy an inch o two from the floor. I spun the tailshaft again with the clutch in and zero rubbing on the disk (full disengagement). Adjusting the pedal, combined with replacing the broken slave, and bleeding everything perfectly, fixed my problem. I wish I had known that bumpstop was there before! I put everything back into the engine bay in 45 minutes and tomorrow I'll put the exhuast and driveshaft and everything back in the car - hopefully tomorrow will be my first drive around the block!!!! Why oh why do I leave for college on Tuesday Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavyZ Posted September 1, 2002 Share Posted September 1, 2002 Does there exist a thing as having too much movement? Hopefully you won't suffer from this now! Congrats on finally trouble shooting the problem. It is so unique about hearing of the simple bumpstop issue that I don't think I'll forget it when I have to do mine! Thanks for posting the results, Nion! Enjoy youyr car while you can. Davy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest greimann Posted September 1, 2002 Share Posted September 1, 2002 Yes, be aware of too much stroke on the master cylinder. You want the pedal's movement to be limited by the bump stop on the floor, not the mechanical limits of the master cylinder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Juday Posted September 1, 2002 Share Posted September 1, 2002 Greimann has a point. When I saw your pic of the slaves I thought, "Uh oh, too much fluid displacement". If you move more fluid through your aluminum master than your plastic slave will hold, the plastic slave will lose. Well, don't want to throw cold water on your long fought success. Try it for a while and just keep an eye on it. Keep your trips close to home for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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