Guest Frank280z Posted September 20, 2000 Share Posted September 20, 2000 Using a GM starter on my conv. I have DEIs heat wrap w/ velcro. And the wires wrapped in their conduit as well. The car starts fine if I attemp to hit it right after I shut it down from a 1/2 hr run. But if I go to start it 15 min. from shut off; it will not start back up. But if I jump it with the batt. charger at 40 amps; it will start with 1 crank. The batt. is relocated to the rear with 2 gauge. I just purchased Taylors remote sel. with the bump. I'm going to try this first before I replace the starter again.... Any suggestions??? Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted September 20, 2000 Share Posted September 20, 2000 The 2 gage wire might be your problem. 1/0 or 2/0 welding cable is easy to bend and handles a bunch more current. The next time this happens, try measuring the voltage drop from the battery to the starter cable terminal at the starter. You'll probably see that there's a substantial voltage drop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Frank280z Posted September 20, 2000 Share Posted September 20, 2000 Thanks Pete. Where do I get this welding cable?? At Lowes?? Or a welding supplier? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted September 20, 2000 Share Posted September 20, 2000 You got it, a welding supply company. See if you can get some lugs that fit it, as alot of the automotive stores won't have lugs that big. The welding supply place I went to only had Aluminum lugs. Anybody have a source for 1/0 or 2/0 gage crimp/solder copper lugs, for 5/16" or 3/8" studs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modern Motorsports Ltd Posted September 20, 2000 Share Posted September 20, 2000 quote: Originally posted by pparaska: You got it, a welding supply company. See if you can get some lugs that fit it, as alot of the automotive stores won't have lugs that big. The welding supply place I went to only had Aluminum lugs. Anybody have a source for 1/0 or 2/0 gage crimp/solder copper lugs, for 5/16" or 3/8" studs? Same electrical/welding supply shop had the solder on lugs (I'd highly recc'd them over crimp style, no corrosion with saturated solder) as well as an auto marine shop. FWIW I used OOO cable (3/O) and I'm sure 'two ought' is fine, I soldered the lugs on after fitting all lines (ground was v. short to batt right behind pass. seat in toolwell), ground and feed to Ford solenoid on firewall/fender area. Solder v. well to saturate the end, then I smeared dielectric silicone (won't corrode) on any exposed wire (from torch heat/stripping etc) and then wrapped well with ee tape so's I never have to wonder if it's anything to do with those wires if my car won't start. My starter is also wrapped with a heat shield blanket retained by HUGE (very long) hose clamps (some 15" diameter or so, just loop a few times and works v. well for servicing). Only troubles I've had starting since remote solenoid was when battery reserve was dropping down d/2 a failing alternator. good luck I agree w/ Pete,IMO the guage2 cable they sell for longer lines is inferior. Even if it's alright at least after these changes you'll know what you don't have to check when it's not starting:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Frank280z Posted September 27, 2000 Share Posted September 27, 2000 OK guys, I installed the 1/0 gauge back to the battery with 3/8 term. Same prob. Is this heat soak. I skipped on the remote sel. for now. Just to take it out. I'll try the remote sel. and see if that cures it....hopefully. Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modern Motorsports Ltd Posted September 27, 2000 Share Posted September 27, 2000 quote: Originally posted by Frank280z: OK guys, I installed the 1/0 gauge back to the battery with 3/8 term. Same prob. Is this heat soak. I skipped on the remote sel. for now. Just to take it out. I'll try the remote sel. and see if that cures it....hopefully. Frank Yes that's heat soak. On instant shutoff like you say it will fire as you have it insulated so it's not 'that' hot yet, then it 'soaks' in the 15 minutes and can't pull enough voltage/amps to overcome heat effect. Remote solenoid will give you a v. strong shot. I wired my remote battery direct to this solenoid and used it as the terminal to everything else. Just got a F*rd heavy duty one at a parts shop for $10 or less. here's a good writeup with all you'll need to do it http://www.chevelles.com/techref/tecref4.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fast Frog Posted September 28, 2000 Share Posted September 28, 2000 Ross C: Thanks A Bunch!!! I've been monitoring this post from the beginning cause I've got the same problem Frank280Z has. I've wraped the starter and even installed a heat shield, but I still get a certain amount of heat soak. I've gone thru a battery (now using a 1025 cranking amp battery) a yr for the last 5 yrs due to this heat soak problem and also xtra drag on the selenoid due to the Paxton SC. Paxtons are not a "free wheeling" sys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted September 28, 2000 Share Posted September 28, 2000 Just wondering how many of you that are having heat soak problems are running block hugger headers that might be wrapped or ceramic coated, but have unwrapped/uncoated pipes that run from the headers back? I have a theory that running block huggers with an uninsulated head pipe might be causing the heat soak. Hot air would rise from the head pipe to the starter, as well as heat being radiated from the pipe to the starter. This is the reason that I had most of my exhaust system coated (until behind the diff anyway). I wanted to not heat soak the starter, not let the exhaust system contribute any more than needed to the under hood temp problem, and keep the floor boards/tunnel cool. (Well, it looks very nice also, and all my handy work of making a custom mandrel bent dual system won't be ruined by rust either.) It's still a theory since the car has not been started yet. Just wondering if it was worth trying to wrap the header pipes from the block huggers back even temporarily to see if I'm right on this one. I'm also a bit leary of the starter wrap. Fine for keeping heat out, but as the starter gets hot through conduction from the engine, I'd think it might hold heat in the starter/solenoid and aggravate heat soak. I think the best solution would be a good insulated starter heat shield that let air pass around the starter... I put the Moroso mini starter heat shield on my car. Nice design with insulation between two AL sheets. The problem I have with it is that it leaves the bottom of the starter open, to the heat radiated from the head pipes on block huggered engines or long tube headers. One thing I'm going to try to see if heat soak occurs is modify it by adding a section below the starter. But I hope the ceramic coating on the head pipe would keep the radiation from the pipe to the starter down. Underhood heat management really needs to be researched better on this swap. Did we come to the conclusion that a pan from the radiator to the front crossmember could help pull air out of the engine compartment to underneath the car at speed? Of course, that does nothing for the heat soak problem. I'm begining to wonder if those computer muffin fans in the inner fenders that Henry Constanzo (Georgia Z Club Pres.) put in his V8Z might be the ticket for lowering temps when the car is idling in traffic of even to have them run from a thermostat while the engine is off to cure heat soak. It seems some sort of active system is needed to evacuate the hot air from the engine bay after shutdown. Exchanging the hot air for cooler air would tend to cool the engine/starter/etc. Sorry for the rambling. [This message has been edited by pparaska (edited September 28, 2000).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Bayley Posted September 28, 2000 Share Posted September 28, 2000 Pete (and others): I hate to say this infront of everyone, but I've never done anything to prevent heat soak in the starter. I guess I always expeted to have starter problems on a hot summer afternoon... but alas they never arose. At first I commended it to having header wrap on my block hugger headers. However, the main downpipe that passed directly under the starter was totally bare with no insulation at all. Still, no starter problems. I use just a basic generic GM starter. I'm not sure what vehicle it came off of, it's been used on EVERY V8Z I've ever built (a course of 5 years). It's very big and extremely heavy. I've often thought of swapping in a smaller mini-torque, but the one I've got works so well. Anyway, I next swapped out the block huggers for a set of long tubes while adding a bit more compression to the engine as well. Still, no starter problems. I'm actually starting to get worried. For all intensive purposes I "should" be having starter heat soak. Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining... I'm just wondering why I'm not having the same problems a few others are having. I guess one area to be suspecious would be the starter wrap. I could see how it would help keep heat out... but once heat found a way in there... wouldn't it also help contain the heat? Also, is the exhaust the only source of heat for the starter? I suspect the a good deal of heat is also being transferred through the engine block. Once the heat works it's way from the block into the starter, the heat shield/wrap might actually hold the heat inside the starter. I may be crazy, but has anyone else thought about this? My underhood temps get nice and warm while sitting in traffic. I've seen 220 - 230 on the temp gauge a few more times than I would like to admit. I blame most of this due to the uncoated long tube headers. I'm starting to think it would be nice to have them coated while the engine is out. I am NEVER going to install those long tube headers while the motor is in the car. PERIOD!!! But that's a whole 'nother story. Anyway, I just thought I would add my $4.95 (fed tax, state tax, tip and destination charge included). -Andy P.S. Check it out, triple digit posts for me. Yeah! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulR Posted September 28, 2000 Share Posted September 28, 2000 quote: Originally posted by Frank280z: I'll try the remote sel. and see if that cures it....hopefully. Frank For what its worth, I had a heat soak problem. I added a heat shield on the starter and still had the problem (maybe not as bad). I then added a remote solnoid (Ford style, around $10) and the problem went away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fast Frog Posted September 28, 2000 Share Posted September 28, 2000 Pricher: Can you give me the name and part number for this remote Ford solenoid??!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brian260ZT Posted September 28, 2000 Share Posted September 28, 2000 here's a link to a 24.00 fix from Summit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brian260ZT Posted September 28, 2000 Share Posted September 28, 2000 Ok.... lets try this again.. http://store.summitracing.com/product.asp?ssid=N41EFNXIFKDOKK43CW8XYIDEI1&orderid=XMEBRP8C8UVIYP8EEOGYOTT2PPXJPT8CQQTE&p=A6ED28EB-3612-11D3-949D-080009FC5B5F Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted September 28, 2000 Share Posted September 28, 2000 quote: Originally posted by Andrew Bayley: Pete (and others): I guess one area to be suspecious would be the starter wrap. I could see how it would help keep heat out... but once heat found a way in there... wouldn't it also help contain the heat? Also, is the exhaust the only source of heat for the starter? I suspect the a good deal of heat is also being transferred through the engine block. Once the heat works it's way from the block into the starter, the heat shield/wrap might actually hold the heat inside the starter. I may be crazy, but has anyone else thought about this? Yeah, that's the same thing I was saying above your post. The starter gets hot by being bolted to the engine as well as radiant & convected heat from the exhaust system. Great (or not so great?) minds think alike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted September 28, 2000 Share Posted September 28, 2000 Ross, I never said anyone should try all this other stuff before trying the starter solenoid. I treat that as the first thing to do - I have one installed. Voltage drop from too small of a gage of battery cabling that is long from a relocated battery is the next thing. I was just looking for reasons that the starter gets so hot that it won't work, with sufficient voltage to it. In other words, fix the problem, don't band-aid the symptoms. Sure, a $10 solenoid is hardly a tough band-aid to apply, and if it helps alleviate the heat soak problem (it historically has) then it should be one of the first lines of defense. If the starter is not pulling in or cranking on heat soak, the first thing I would do is measue the voltage drop on both sides of the circuit, from the battery positive post to the starter (during starting) and from the negative post to the starter bolting area. This can show you whether you need to worry about the voltage drop and the need for larger cables. If you are droping more than a volt, it's something to consider. Most starter motors are designed to work at less than 12v for this reason. If it's a 12 V or so during cranking at the battery but 9 or 10 at the starter (across the body and the battery cable lug), your cabling is too small (assuming all the connections are good) or maybe you need a negative cable as well. Looking at the voltage drop on each side of the circuit (pos and neg) will tell you which is undersized, if any. Just for the heck of it I ran a 2 gage negative cable from the battery to the engine block near the starter, as well as grounding to the chassis at the battery. A steel frame or unibody is not the best conductor, so I gave it some help with a parallel cable connection. As far as the fan/rad not being able to keep up, if the car is overheating then yeah, you'd need to address those parts, etc. But if it's running 195 with a 195 stat for example, the heat from the engine will soak into the starter. After you turn the car off, there's a spike since the cooling system stops working and this heat goes out into the starter, etc. Adding more heat to it with a hot uninsulated pipe and headers near it doesn't help. I was just bring up the muffin fans as a way to get the heat out of the engine compartment right after turning it off. Of course, cracking the hood is probably even better, but I don't like the idea of walking away from my car with the hood unlatched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulR Posted September 28, 2000 Share Posted September 28, 2000 quote: Originally posted by pparaska: Sure, a $10 solenoid is hardly a tough band-aid to apply, and if it helps alleviate the heat soak problem (it historically has) then it should be one of the first lines of defense. I've found two other reasons I like the remote solenoid: 1) It makes it real easy to hook up a remote starter switch. 2) It gives you a good place to hook up any direct battery connections, like a MSD ignition and Flex-a-lite electric fan. (they use both direct battery and switched battery connections) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MYRON Posted September 28, 2000 Share Posted September 28, 2000 I have the block hugger headers that are wrapped with dfi wrap..yes I have mild heat soak... It is also 100 degrees with about 80% humidity down here in South TX. I can cruize town for an hour at city speeds and the temp never goes above 200... The under hood temp stays way low with the headers wrapped. I also have that huge hole in the hood at the back of the cowl scoop... My headers are so close to my stock GM starter that I had to grind a groove in the flanges so they would not come in contact with the "nipple" on the back of the starter.. If it is cool outside, I usually do not have heat soak.... I have heard some people say that an engine thats timing is to advanced will drag on starting and the situation is aggrevated by a hot motor... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted September 29, 2000 Share Posted September 29, 2000 Here's what's worked on my turbo manifolds in the past. This was to prevent the brake fluid from boiling and the plastic master from melting... First - air is your BEST insulator. Anything that contacts the hot surface will transfer heat. Get as much airgap as you can - duh. In the case of my brake master a stainless shield was made. This was bolted at a couple of contact points but not touching the master with any large surface area. It had an air gap on both the manifold side and on the master side. It blocked radiant heat VERY well! I've seen others build similiar shields for starters. If you can slip something like a piece of thin stainless sheet between the start and exhaust and not allow it to touch either the pipe or the start you might help the situation. Of course I say that not having had a V8 Z just yet so let me know if it works out (smile). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modern Motorsports Ltd Posted September 29, 2000 Share Posted September 29, 2000 quote: Originally posted by pparaska: Yeah, that's the same thing I was saying above your post. The starter gets hot by being bolted to the engine as well as radiant & convected heat from the exhaust system. Great (or not so great?) minds think alike At least we all agree the starter gets hot and therefore needs a stronger voltage/amp shot to pull in the solenoid. I don't think we have to reinvent the wheel here. Hotrodders etc have done remote solenoids for years and they work. $10 for the solenoid max and use the wiring URL I posted above, save the extra $15 going to summit IMO. No PN's needed, just get a heavy duty ford piece (ie. ask what was the largest engine in the ford truck in 80's, OK can I have that solenoid) done. Now I am curious if I remove my starter wrap how this would affect starter life (is engine heat or exhaust heat or compartment heat period the stronger factor...) As far as engine comp. heat, fender fans/ coating full exhaust/louvres etc etc IMO they are only needed for a hot running motor where rad/fan can't keep up. Doesn't matter to me if it's 100 or 200 in their, critical ECU's etc should be inside anyhow. I don't feel it in my cabin with insulation I'd of done anyhow for sound. If one wants cooler air for intake you should have a cold air system anyhow to maximize this. Yes all mods can be fun and ad to the complexity and possibly reward but just don't want others thinking a 30 minute wiring correction done for years needs to be complimented by $$$'s spent elsewhere as well. If someone else would expertly do ALL mod's mentioned above for free sure I'd take them, but not going to hit the top of my priority list soon or ever. Ross (back to studying, but heh, I sourced a 'free' copy of a suspension modelling program today (err rather a program capable of modellingsuspension:-))) [This message has been edited by Ross C (edited September 28, 2000).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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