Safety vs power to weight ratio (long)

[Pop N Wood]

While we are on this subject, anybody know what firefighters think of cages? I often wonder if their "jaws of life" will work to cut through a cage. Or do they just pull out the gas powered cut off saw?

 

Going to have to respectfully disagree with the shape issue. Like someone said, it is not the fall that hurts you it is the sudden stop at the end. Most brain deaths occur when the internal organ slams into the front of your quickly decelerating skull. This bruises the brain, causing it to swell and bleed, which in turn creates additional pressure and further cuts off blood flow. Not trying to be condescending, just thinking through the issue.

 

What the cage does do is give your head less room to decelerate. Scrubbing off the same speed in less distance means higher G’s, thus more damage. One could argue that wearing a helmet further complicates the encroachment issue. Wearing a helmet gives up as much head room as a cage built tight to the sheet metal. Granted if I am going to bump my head I would rather be wearing helmet than not, but this could also mean the forces are just transferred to my neck making me a quadriplegic rather than an organ donor.

 

And there is a huge difference between bumping your head when you get into a car and slamming into a structural member in a wreck. If the cage is such that you bump your head while seated, then that is another issue.

 

I think there are a lot of valid points being made, but I don’t see this issue as a simple one with an obvious answer. But I will say that I am not a big fan of cages on street cars for a number of different reasons.

[TimZ]

If the cage is such that you bump your head while seated, then that is another issue.

This was kind of my original point - I don't think it's possible to build a front cage in a Z that you couldn't hit your head on while seated. There isn't that much room there to begin with.

 

I think there are a lot of valid points being made, but I don’t see this issue as a simple one with an obvious answer. But I will say that I am not a big fan of cages on street cars for a number of different reasons.

 

Agreed. My intent in harping on this has always been to try to get people to think about what they are doing and whether it matches up with how they will actually use their car. Just because it works in a race car on a track doesn't automatically make it suitable for the street.

 

Man - I've got to say that it is refreshing to see people able to carry on a debate logically and state thier opinions clearly without resorting to name-calling, etc. I participate in a couple of other forums, and this type of discourse seems to be pretty rare.

 

Kudos to us

[Guest Nic-Rebel450CA]

Just out of curiosity, what part of the Z do you think is most prone to injury from accidents; where should I focus my attention. Thanks

 

From my personal experience, the sides..

My Z was T-boned in the passenger side and it just squished right in (even though it wasnt a direct impact). If I would have had a passenger, they wouldnt be here right now.

 

There is another fellow on here that had his Z wrecked pretty bad and the passenger door was sitting about where the center console is. I forget what the nature of that accident was, but it smashed his car up really bad.

[zero]

Hmm... So what would you guys say to taking one of the better weld-in roll bars, and adding mid-height side beams, without the full cage. Maybe take the side beams as far as the shock tower. Just thinking out loud.

[Oltmann]

Going to have to respectfully disagree with the shape issue. Like someone said' date=' it is not the fall that hurts you it is the sudden stop at the end. Most brain deaths occur when the internal organ slams into the front of your quickly decelerating skull. This bruises the brain, causing it to swell and bleed, which in turn creates additional pressure and further cuts off blood flow. Not trying to be condescending, just thinking through the issue.

[/quote']

 

I know the solution to this issue.

[Pop N Wood]

Hmm... So what would you guys say to taking one of the better weld-in roll bars, and adding mid-height side beams, without the full cage. Maybe take the side beams as far as the shock tower. Just thinking out loud.

 

I have read enough of Katman's posts to know that would address one of his bigger issues (with Z car cages at least). Door bars are pretty inconvenient though. So if if you are going to go Dukes of Hazard, might as well hollow out the door, weld the door skin back into place and make the door beams protrude out into the door cavity as much as possible. This would give you maximum cushion before the Olds Vista Crusier T boning you starts to tag your sholder.

 

Katman was also big on getting a bar runing door jamb to door jamb right about where your feet sit.

[zero]

well, im not up for welding the skin in place because this will be a street car. I think i would be able to put up with door bars about like this but with less taper on the top tube, and having them continue all all the way forward past the firewall.

 

 

These bars are a bit too high for my liking, but same basic design, again continuing to the fenderwells.

 

http://images.cardomain.com/member_images/4/web/544000-544999/544529_52_full.jpg

[Phantom]

Maybe safety vs power-to-weight ratio is a misnomer. It's more like safety vs having a brain. Evaluating power in a Z and making appropriate structural changes to ensure the bodies integrity, upgrading suspension and braking, and other similar modifications are all good moves for the sake of the car. That is one reason why my car weighs about 2,900 lbs. - and is going to get heavier. The thing is - my car is designed to be a daily driver - and I'm 6'4" and 225 lb. My car has fiberglass ground effects - no bumpers of any kind. I do have an Autopower 4-pt. roll bar bolted into my fender wells but that is more for structural integrity rather than safety. I have driven a 280Z for 18 years now and have come to the uncomfortable conclusion that I'm going to take a massive beating if someone hits me. Knowing that, I have made the conscioius decision to continue driving a car that was built before crumple zones, ABS, air bags, etc. What I do that is even more effective than any of those, however, is that I drive "aggressively-defensively". I focus on my driving when I'm in the car. I NEVER drink so that is not going to affect my driving and I maintain a continual scan, not only in front but to my sides and rear. I have twice moved away from vehicles that were going to hit me from the rear becasue: 1) I saw them coming in my mirror, and 2) I had left myself an escape opening.

Most drivers today are idiots so, to be safe, you have to learn to drive for them as well as yourself. I don't make a habit of racing on the street and I don't ever get real aggressive in my street driving without first considering the consequences.

I own a really good helmet for the occaisional trips to the track and my car meets all the SCCA & NHRA requirements for a vehicle in its class. What that really means is that I ensure it is solid and very well maintained. I am not the fastest in anything but I sure do have a good time and enjoy my ride on a daily basis - and all the compliments it gets because of how well it is put together.

My car would not work for someone that is planning on having a 10 second car or competing regularly in SCCA. It won't normally come in best in class at car shows but we keep each other alive and I enjoy the routing thumbs up from other drivers.