Phantom Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 The Z Club I belong to is sponsored by a local Nissan Dealership. They help with car shows, give discounted rates on parts, etc. They also give a discounted rate on service but, unless the car has an OBD II port, they can't work on them. That rules out anything built before '97. I called them about a climate control problem on the '77 280Z and the answer was they had neither the FSM nor a mechanic familiar enough with the car to work on it. I called them with the '83Zx when it failed emissions and they told me they didn't have a "5 gas analyzer" nor were they going to get one which means they can neither help on emmissions problems nor can they properly tune one. Sure glad we have a few good "old-timers" with shops in the area that can actually fix one. Makes me feel real good about my OEM Dealer support. I'm just glad that not all the dealerships are this way for the lucky few that have a good one nearby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPMS Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 It's sad that the dealerships turn their backs on their own products after only a few years. My mother always had her Maxima serviced at the dealership, but felt compelled to get another car when, after 10 years of faithful patronage, they told her they didn't want to service her car anymore. I can understand why they wouldn't want to touch the Chevy engine in your hot rod, but to refuse to service your A/C system is just plain stupidity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
love-my-V8-280Z Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 That does surprise me, I would think they would take the work even if they don’t have the best tools. The few times, and I mean few as possible times I have gone to a dealer they tried to milk me out of as much work as possible. I will say it has always been a newer car tho... I feel they are good for warranty repairs and nothing else. I have always found a back yard mechanic for tons less per hour and even tho they don’t have the best tools they have no more or no less messed up on trouble shooting and repairs. The last time I went to a dealer someone dragged a air hose across my hood all day and the dealer told be it was a old scratch! to top it off, I paid him $2800 for a transmission. I called ford and they said sorry no recalls, send letter if u like. I did,,, got back a rude to bad letter.. I sell the car, toss out the transmission receipt, 3 months afterwards I get a ford letter, we will pay for your transmission bla bla bla.. I find the receipt in the trash- no lie!- I take it back to the dealer and you know what he says... Did you just get this? we had a rash of these letters last October.. Guess what month my car was in his service bay getting a transmission?? ha ha ha.... God don't get me started on dealer again... $70 a hour I want top of the line work.... Oh I can’t stand it... My buddy works at a dealer he says know what, they love me down there I produce 12 hours of work a day. I said what do u mean? Well the book says it takes 2 hours, I do it in 1, get it? Hell yes, you work on my car for one hour and charge me two! he says you don’t understand, if a mechanic sucks and spends 3 hours you still only get charged 2, I tell him, sure I would rather pay the 3 hours and if he happens a lot I find a different mechanic... And well I don’t believe for a sec I would only get charged 2... Here I go again.......... Make my day, shoot a dealer mechanic.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaparral2f Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 Phantom, I'm just glad that not all the dealerships are this way for the lucky few that have a good one nearby. What makes you think there are any other kind of dealerships? When I was building my engine, I went to the local Chevy dealer to check on some parts and instead of looking up the numbers I gave them they told me I should buy a catalogue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 81na ZX Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 Try owning an old RX-7. I used to have a 84 about 4 years ago. Most of the nearest Mazda delaerships didn't even have parts computers that went back that far Try walking into a Mitsubishi dealership... Unless you have a part number handy, you need to give a vin, and a bunch of other info inorder for them to give you any help at all... I've also had 3 crysler dealers refuse to work on my car, but the 3rd was after they told me I needed a new $3000 transfercase - THAT WASN"T BROKEN. Wierdest thing I've ever noticed - the best chevy parts department I've ever been to was in Dearborn, MI, down the street from Ford world headquarters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 My buddy works at a dealer he says know what, they love me down there I produce 12 hours of work a day. I said what do u mean? Well the book says it takes 2 hours, I do it in 1, get it? Hell yes, you work on my car for one hour and charge me two! This is how mechanics make money. How else would they afford the $40K in TOOLS that they have to work on your car? I don't know one mechanic who has been in the biz for over 10 years that doesn't have AT LEAST $40K in their tool box. The job times are not rated by the dealer, they come from an independent source (sorry, can't remember the name of the book). Mechanics that I know make anywhere from $15 to $25 per hour. Show me another profession that requires such a HUGE investment in tools in order to make such a measly wage. I know people hate mechanics, and I know there are a FEW crooked wrenches out there, but by and large they are honest and they've got a hell of a lot of time and money invested in tools and expertise so that they can make 12 hours flat rate in an 8 hour day. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
love-my-V8-280Z Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 Jon, I don't understand how you can support being charged more labor than it took to do the job. If I hired a man to fix my dishwasher and he spent 4 hours on it and charged me 6 or 8 I would take him to small claimes court. I do understand travel time. But I deliver my car, he drives it in, I pay for that time, he works on it and returns it to the parking lot.... If that total event takes 2 hours I expect to pay 2 hours. $70x2=$140.00 I look for a good mechanic, someone that fixes it right the first time and does it quickly to keep the cost down. Not someone that does it quickly and charges me as much as he can. I have a good backyard mecanic. He charges me $50 a hour, I except that. He don't make $50 a hour, he has a garage to pay for, heat, tools, insurance.... He once spent 6 hours to figure out I needed a new crank shaft sensor.. I had no problem paying him... I needed a new front oil seal, he told me the book says 12 hours, lift motor etc, he was able to wiggle his hands in there and get it done. he charged me $50!!! At that point I was his customer forever! he could have charged me 12X70. I enjoy debating, and hope you take the time to express your option.. Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim240z Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 Then you definitely don't want to know how bodyshops work out their time!!! It makes dealer wrench heads look like saints!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 I enjoy debating, and hope you take the time to express your option.. Me too! Strap yourself in... I'm going to get a little communistic here, so anyone who knows my libertarian ethos be forwarned. By going to a backyard mechanic you are SCREWING legitimate mechanics. Legitimate shops need to pay for insurance, need to be regulated, have OSHA inspections on occasion, are forced to a higher safety standard, need to dispose of chemicals in the proper manner, etc. Your backyard mechanic doesn't have any of those requirements. So he can take your old oil and dump it in his backyard (in theory). Or he can work under a car that is not properly supported, etc. He has virtually no overhead, and probably stocks no parts. So sure he can give you a better deal. But he is doing it ILLEGALLY, so he is laying his ass on the line every time he works on your vehicle (if you were in a wreck he has no business to shield his personal property from your lawsuit), and taking the business away from shops that play by the rules which is more expensive to do. Sure, there are "gravy" jobs. And there are jobs that aren't. And all of this depends on the mechanic you get of course. What incentive does a mechanic have to better educate himself and learn his craft and to buy all of the specialized tools if he can't make any more money? Why buy all the tools if he can't use them to his advantage. That's the difference between a rookie mechanic and a guy who has been doing it for 20 years. The guy with the experience has spent the money on the tools, has honed his diagnostic skills, and wastes less time. He makes a bigger profit for his boss. And his boss pays him flat rate to compensate him for his trouble. The shop gets can handle more business and make the customer happier, and the mechanic gets a fatter paycheck. When a flat rate mechanic's work comes back, he fixes it and gets paid NOTHING. I would not want to go to a mechanic who got paid hourly. There is no incentive for him to do better. He doesn't care if he has a comeback. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonzer12 Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 My buddy works at a dealer he says know what, they love me down there I produce 12 hours of work a day. I said what do u mean? Well the book says it takes 2 hours, I do it in 1, get it? Hell yes, you work on my car for one hour and charge me two! This is how mechanics make money. How else would they afford the $40K in TOOLS that they have to work on your car? I don't know one mechanic who has been in the biz for over 10 years that doesn't have AT LEAST $40K in their tool box. The job times are not rated by the dealer, they come from an independent source (sorry, can't remember the name of the book). Mechanics that I know make anywhere from $15 to $25 per hour. Show me another profession that requires such a HUGE investment in tools in order to make such a measly wage. I know people hate mechanics, and I know there are a FEW crooked wrenches out there, but by and large they are honest and they've got a hell of a lot of time and money invested in tools and expertise so that they can make 12 hours flat rate in an 8 hour day. Jon I must disagree. Every business has its expenses, if you order a pizza do you expect them to overcharge you simply becuase they had to buy an oven and a pan? I agree that toosl and such are quite an investment for a mechanic but by and large tools last a life time and are just a business investment like anything else. In no way does that merrit a mechanic to overcharge in any way, Its money spent for services rendered, nothing more in my book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 The service is the job, and the shop should charge what the job is worth. If the mechanic can get the job done faster, then that doesn't take away from the value of the job. Would you rather pay the new employee at the pizza parlor MORE because it took him longer to make it? Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 jonzer, does it occur to you that we just made the same argument? The jobs are worth a set amount (making pizza or changing a timing belt for example) so that's what the job is worth. Do the job, get paid the money. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonzer12 Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 It depends on how you approach the issue, most dealer's allow extra time for a job to be taken. My thinking is that I make sure the person working on my car is qualified and that I trust them then I pay him however long it takes him to do the job, not what some standard says it is. If it takes him longer than someone else so be it, thats who I hired, and if he has the skill and tools to do it in half the time, then I should only pay for the time he spent. I DO agree that sometimes you pay for the knowledge not the work, but most of the time when dealing with mechanics I think again, that I should only pay the hourly rate for time actually worked. Nothing more nothing less. **Edit** then of coarse I remember some time some idiot mechanic spent three hours trying to figure out why the alignment wouldn't work out on my girlfriends car when the suspension had to be under load to check it out properly. I went bananas when they tried to charge her for the time, so I am not sure what point I am trying to make ... you win Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
love-my-V8-280Z Posted April 23, 2004 Share Posted April 23, 2004 I do want to say I’m surprised anyone disagrees with me. I don't expect to change anyone option, but I do want to add this..... Everyone gets paid by the hour! Everyone is expected to get better at his or her job! You get good, I pay you more! You fix the tuff stuff look good shine I pay you more! I do it cheaper "backyard mechanic" I get the business.... It’s the rules of a democracy. I work for the local city, guess what, I get a raise don’t matter if I try hard or get better. They can’t fire me if I just get by.... When someone’s tries hard and does well. no reward! no extra income! It just wares him down and he becomes just another average laborer... People who make commissions, are being rewarded for making a sale.. This in the merchandise fields not service fields.. I already said, what’s the dif between a plumber, electrician or a builder... they cant charge you for 5 hours of work when it only took 2, no one would hire them for long.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
love-my-V8-280Z Posted April 23, 2004 Share Posted April 23, 2004 **Edit** then of coarse I remember some time some idiot mechanic spent three hours trying to figure out why the alignment wouldn't work out on my girlfriends car when the suspension had to be under load to check it out properly. I went bananas when they tried to charge her for the time, so I am not sure what point I am trying to make ... you win I want to add one more thing, reguarding what was printed above. you have a right to be angry when someone is telling you they can fix your problem and than expect you to pay for the service and they clearly were not able to preform as they lead you to believe. By all rights you should have payed the 3 hours. But you have a right to complain and a good service department will review the siutation and maybe eat some of the cost if they want your service to return.... And you will return if you feel they are good at what they do and honest!!! If they suck you dont come back and they go under, happens all the time. The good get rich and grow the bad shrink and dissapear!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted April 23, 2004 Share Posted April 23, 2004 Bottom line: If you go to a shop they give you an estimate. The estimate states the value of the job. If you don't like the estimate, go to another shop! Another note on flat rate: shops pay flat rate is so that they don't have to pay mechanics when there is no work to do. I know not a single rich mechanic. Some make decent money, but as I stated in the beginning, the rates for jobs are not determined by the mechanics. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
love-my-V8-280Z Posted April 23, 2004 Share Posted April 23, 2004 Jon, been real fun but we have to agree to disagree, I have not changed my point of view and neither have you.....A very smart man once told me, if a man changes his option fast, he will change it back again fast also. A man that is slow to change his option is slow to change it back... Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted April 23, 2004 Share Posted April 23, 2004 Yeah thanks Terry! It was fun. Very surprised that no mechanics piped up on the subject though. I figured for sure there were more than a couple here... Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest erics660z Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 I realize this is an old thread, but I am a mechanic, and I cannot resist the urge to "pipe in", albeit belatedly. Mechanics tend not to get raises. You create your own "raises" by becoming more proficient at your job. Most shops use "flat-rate" guides for estimating jobs. These are published by Mitchell, Chilton and Motor. They are all very similar. How else could some one quote you an estimate to fix sometning they have never fixed before? Are you to pay for their learning curve? If a book calls for three hours, it may take 4 or 5 to do it the first time, 3 the second...and if you do it enough, you can "beat" the book time. Dealers are the most proficient, working on one make all day long. Who could do it faster... you in your backyard?..me in my shop?..or the guy doing his 34th recall job (who could probably do it blindfolded). Yes, flatrate estimating means you will occasionally pay more time than the repair took...but, you will often pay less. Especially with an older car, with less service info available. That is why dealers abandon older models. Their techs don't want to work on them...less profitable. Personally, I enjoy working on a wider variety of cars, but it is less profitable. I understand why you could feel overcharged in such a situation. But if it where not for the "gravy" jobs, no one would do the tough jobs...especially on older cars. It may be more fun to fix your old Jag or Alfa, but it's waaaay more profitable fixing Accords and Tauruses. It may be a little flawed, but I don't know of a better(fairer) way to do business. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 Mossy Nissan here in Oceanside, California had no problem troubleshooting my wiring problems. It was very difficult for them, but they figured it out and charged me a reasonable time rate. (by the hour, less than 3 hours to do almost a full days troubleshooting) They have a few guys who've been there for 20+ years. This is what you need... a dealer with that kind of experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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