Guest 305240 Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 Being an old school mechanic, I have to agree with Eric. One thing most people don't realize is the flat rate manual come into being because of lawsuits. Back when mechanics and dearships charged for actual time. The time flat rate manual was set up to put a stop to the over charging. It must be noted. If a dealership charges 70.00 an flat rate hour, you can bet the farm the mechanic isn't seeing even half of that. When I worked at dealerships, the going rate was 35.00 a flat rate hour. I got 7.00 of it. One thing I never agreed on was being charged for overhead. The same thing for being charged road time if some heavy equipment has to come out to your place. I'm more than willing to pay for the job, but damn you if I have to pay you for your building or special this and that. Why should I have to pay you to come to my home? That's your business for crying out loud. I applaud the backyard mechanic. After all, this is America. Even if we are told it's the land of the free. (with a lot of restrictions) Most of the backyard mechanics or small shops will tell you if they can fix your problem or not. Free enterprise? Sure, if you own a chain store or something like that. Then you can dictate to the rest of us what you want us to buy, not what we want. Sorry about the rant. My soapbox was too close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
love-my-V8-280Z Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 AMEN!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 2slo4u Posted September 24, 2004 Share Posted September 24, 2004 You can't really blame the commisioned mechanics for not being able to service older vehicles when sometimes the older service manuals aren't available. The dealership is only there to make money and I believe the service department makes the majority of the money for the dealer. Why do you think it's $70 an hour for a mechanic making anywhere from $8 to $25 an hour and the customer pays the same for either. The dealer invests money in training the mechanics with skills needed for the newer vehicles and it's easy to understand how the older vehicles will get lost in the cracks. With fewer older vehicles around, there is little motivation for the dealer to keep and maintain test equipment for older vehicles. You just have to hope there are some older guys around that can remember some of the diagnosis methods for the older cars... or just find some shadetree guy and hope for the best. I prefer to do all work on my vehicle short of jobs that require tools I can't possibly afford. (Machine work, transmission work) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
80LS1T Posted September 24, 2004 Share Posted September 24, 2004 My buddy works at a dealer he says know what' date=' they love me down there I produce 12 hours of work a day. I said what do u mean? Well the book says it takes 2 hours, I do it in 1, get it? Hell yes, you work on my car for one hour and charge me two!he says you don’t understand, if a mechanic sucks and spends 3 hours you still only get charged 2, I tell him, sure I would rather pay the 3 hours and if he happens a lot I find a different mechanic... And well I don’t believe for a sec I would only get charged 2... Here I go again.......... Make my day, shoot a dealer mechanic.. [/quote'] Come on now, some of us on the board are dealer technicans(myself included) . This rate is called "flat rate" the only way a tech makes money is to buy better tools and learn how to do something faster. I mean I used to take 4 hours to put an evaporator(A/C) in a new Caravan. Now it take me just under 2 hours to do it because I have learned what and what not to take out. Yeah we charge the customer 5.1 hours (warrenty is only like 2.5 hours) but in order for me to that job faster I had to buy some extra tools. I also lost my a$$ big time on the first few I did under warrenty. So yeah it sucks when you have to pay for getting things fixed on your car once its out of warrenty but when its under warrenty the techs working on it are loosing money all the time. Warrenty time just sucks big time. Its normally about 1/2 of what a customer pays. I totally agree that dealership hourly rates are way to high. They think if they charge more they can make up for the money lost when there isnt anything to do. I think if they lower their rates it will bring in more people but what the hell do I know Im just a tech! LOL The shop that I work has 5 rates... Regular work rate (engine, trannys, etc) $84.95/hour Maintance rate(brakes, belts, hoses,etc) $55.00/hour Accessory rate(running boards, visors, trailer hitches, etc) $40.00/hour Warrenty rate(this is what Chrysler will pay us) $77.00/hour Employee rate $35.00/hour So yeah am I glad I work at a dealership with access to a lot of tools and scanners.....yes. But as a tech, unless you "book" over 40 hours per week you dont really make very good money as a tech. At our dealership we have 2 really old guys that still work there. One has been with the company for 43 years and the other 42 years. One guy is known for his abiltiy to tune a carb and the other guy is pretty much useless but he cant retire because he cant afford the health issurance! Then we have a guy that we like to call "Super Tech", this guy can fix anything and I mean anything! No one really knows how much $$$ he makes but he is not on flat rate. Its rumored that he make over $100K on salary because they dont want to loose him to another shop or for him to retire and just work at his own shop at home. I know if you brought in your Z's to our dealership we would find a way to fix them. We never turn away a customer. We had a 1978 Porsche in this summer to have his A/C fixed because we are one of the few dealerships with an A/C machine that can use R12. Like I said we will work on anything! LOL I hate it when guys bash the techs, we arent the ones who set the prices or rates! Blame the dealership! Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 73Turbo240z Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 I realize this is an old thread' date=' but I am a mechanic, and I cannot resist the urge to "pipe in", albeit belatedly. Mechanics tend not to get raises. You create your own "raises" by becoming more proficient at your job. Most shops use "flat-rate" guides for estimating jobs. These are published by Mitchell, Chilton and Motor. They are all very similar. How else could some one quote you an estimate to fix sometning they have never fixed before? Are you to pay for their learning curve? If a book calls for three hours, it may take 4 or 5 to do it the first time, 3 the second...and if you do it enough, you can "beat" the book time. Dealers are the most proficient, working on one make all day long. Who could do it faster... you in your backyard?..me in my shop?..or the guy doing his 34th recall job (who could probably do it blindfolded). Yes, flatrate estimating means you will occasionally pay more time than the repair took...but, you will often pay less. Especially with an older car, with less service info available. That is why dealers abandon older models. Their techs don't want to work on them...less profitable. Personally, I enjoy working on a wider variety of cars, but it is less profitable. I understand why you could feel overcharged in such a situation. But if it where not for the "gravy" jobs, no one would do the tough jobs...especially on older cars. It may be more fun to fix your old Jag or Alfa, but it's waaaay more profitable fixing Accords and Tauruses. It may be a little flawed, but I don't know of a better(fairer) way to do business. Eric[/quote'] i was about to jump in with exactly this angle, i'm glad you chimed in... the job is rated on job hours folks, the mechanics don't sit down and say "oh i think i'll charge this many hours" they have no choice on what they get paid, they're hired at a flat rate, the dealer pays on job hours that are in a set standard, and you (the customer) pay for the job hours, overhead, percentages the dealer charges over job hours, the 100% or so markup on parts, etc... you people can bitch all you want about mechanics, i'm not one, it's not gonna hurt my feelings, but my best friend is, so i see 1st hand some of the shit he gets put through to be "the crooked mechanic at the dealership" you want to know a real bitch of dealer mechanics... the team system... you have a batch of 4-5 guys runnin 3-4 bays helping one another to in theory move cars faster... the team makes job hours, and a percentage is spread from one persons pay to every other team members and vis-versa so that if one mechanic gets slogged down in a job his paycheck won't suck too bad... good on paper yes... good when you have 2-3 team members who love 20 min smoke breaks or hour long shit sessions in the bathroom.. no... cause then your busting ass, and they're profiting off of it... Lets see anyone here with what tools we have in our garages bang out a FWD water pump on current day imports in under half a day... cause i know shop guys who can bang it out in half an hour... how can they be so fast? cause they're really freaking good at what they do now, they took the crap pay for that 3 hour job when it took them 6 to learn how to do it the 1st 3-4 times... as they've dropped there turn around time, who's to say they dont' deserve to make more... I don't know what a majority of this board is comprised of, could be white collar weekend mechanics, could be blue collar hobbiest' from other trades, could be young folks like myself who are still working on becoming one or the other... but i'm williing to bet that a majority of us are not proffesional mechanics... so heres the grim reality of being a proffesional mechanic... you will not become rich off of it... you bust ass every day to make your money, and even then it's not "great" money... So think before you complain about dealership prices next time, don't hate the mechanics doing the work... they arn't walking out to a flashy benz or high end lexus at the end of the day... odd's are they're walking out to somthing thats less than the apex of a "nice car"... You want to know who to be pissed at when you get your next dealership bill... find the manager, the board of trustee's, the sales manager... they're "lowely" high end euros are usually hidden in the back of the dealership to make slinging you a honda/toyota/mitsubishi easier... Mechanics get the shaft just as much as you... don't hate them for the dealerships charging system... they don't make the fortunes you think they do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 I applaud the backyard mechanic. After all, this is America. Even if we are told it's the land of the free. (with a lot of restrictions) Most of the backyard mechanics or small shops will tell you if they can fix your problem or not. Free enterprise? Sure, if you own a chain store or something like that. Then you can dictate to the rest of us what you want us to buy, not what we want. In theory I agree with this wholeheartedly. But I know of one instance where a mechanic did a side job of an engine swap in a BMW. Charged the customer $1500 IIRC. Customer provided the engine. When the job was done, the customer says "I'm not paying, and if you try to make me pay I'll turn you in to the BAR". As I said before, backyard mechanics are doing something that is ILLEGAL. If you want to argue that it should not be illegal, then that is a different argument, and we'd probably see more eye to eye on that one. I think there is a public safety issue here though, so I still don't know if I'd agree wholeheartedly. I do tend as you do towards the buyer beware side of things in that case. But to give an example of the other side of the argument, I don't see too many people arguing for backyard neurosurgery or backyard criminal defense attorneys. There are safety standards and we expect those standards to be met to perform the service. Peoples' lives are at risk when you work on their car. Seriously. Also, there are degrees of backyard mechanic. If I do a clutch job on my friend's Z on a weekend, that is a little different than a guy who makes his living working out of his garage. you want to know a real bitch of dealer mechanics... the team system... you have a batch of 4-5 guys runnin 3-4 bays helping one another to in theory move cars faster... the team makes job hours, and a percentage is spread from one persons pay to every other team members and vis-versa so that if one mechanic gets slogged down in a job his paycheck won't suck too bad... good on paper yes... good when you have 2-3 team members who love 20 min smoke breaks or hour long dodo sessions in the bathroom.. no... cause then your busting ass, and they're profiting off of it... YES YES YES!!! I know several mechanics that left dealerships for independent shops because of the team system. F'in socialists... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPMS Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 When the job was done, the customer says "I'm not paying, and if you try to make me pay I'll turn you in to the BAR". There's a regulating body for auto mechanics??? Tell me about this. And why is it illegal to charge for services rendered on your own time? People in this country are WAY too litigious, IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 Bureau of Automotive Repair. I honestly don't know too much about it, but I know you need to have an actual business and I would assume some fairly hefty insurance to run an automotive shop. If you are caught doing the work without a license there is a pretty steep fine. Auto body shops have it especially bad. They now have to have huge evacuation systems with filters to get the paint fumes out of the building, etc. So when a guy starts an auto body shop in his garage that guy is REALLY illegal... It's not illegal to do a job here or a job there, just as it's not illegal to have a garage sale and not collect sales tax, etc. I don't know the exact line or when you've "crossed" it, but at some point it becomes an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest erics660z Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 BAR, huh?... Must be a left coast thing... Been a Tech for 19 yrs.... I have (strictly voluntary) ASE certs... Anyone with a business licence can fix cars...You have to comply with tax, fire, enviromental and OSHA... but there is no licencing body for techs... at least in most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 BAR doesn't license techs. But I think they regulate automotive business licensing and require insurance, which the backyard mechanic isn't going to have. I know they regulate the smog checks. I'm kinda talking out of my ass here because I haven't tried to open a shop or anything, but I know there are lots of laws in CA at least (where I worked as a wrench) where they were really picky about disposal of waste oil and coolant and such. Then there was OSHA trying to protect us workers from... everything in the shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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