Phantom Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 I was bleeding my brakes last night in preparation for a Track day and noticed that the inside edge of all my tires were obviously more worn than the rest of the tire. Car suspension sorta stock with the Nissan european spec springs (1/4" shorter than stock), KYB gas struts, and urethane bushings. It does NOT have coil-overs or modified upper strut mounts. It appears to be a camber(?) problem? But why would this appear? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim240z Posted May 5, 2004 Share Posted May 5, 2004 Depending on how it's wearing: IF the wear is 'feathered' and feels rough as you run your hand over it, then you have too much toe out. IF it's smooth, then too much negative camber..... Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Posted May 6, 2004 Author Share Posted May 6, 2004 Put the car in the shop this morning and toe and camber is out everywhere - front and rear. Got the toe adjusted properly in the front but camber is still -.6 left and +.2 right. The rear camber is -1 left and positive 1.5 right. Toe is +.4 left and -.3 right. Looks like I need some adjustable control arms in the rear for sure and possibly in the front. Suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim240z Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 For the front camber, it looks like the cross member is over to the left (drivers) side too much. Try loosening the 4 bolts that hold the X-member and slide it over to the right. That will decrease the -ve camber on the left, and increase -ve on the right... Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Posted May 6, 2004 Author Share Posted May 6, 2004 Thanks Tim. Any suggestions for the rear? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 Poor man's camber plate (slot the holes). Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim240z Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 Thanks Tim. Any suggestions for the rear? Easiest and cheapest solution would be to purchase offset (adjustable) bushings. They allow a whole lot of adjustment, but should be enough to get you in good shape. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 Man I HATE those adjustable bushings, in fact I'm going to great lengths to get rid of them. Have you considered trying to loosen the front and rear crossmembers in the back and retighten? I know John Coffey has also talked about putting shims in the bushing cups to move toe. The camber would be easily adjustable by slotting the holes in the strut towers. Just another option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Posted May 6, 2004 Author Share Posted May 6, 2004 OK - I just got the actual alignment numbers. Here they are. ............................Camber------Caster--------Toe Front Range____0.3 to 1.8__2.1 to 3.4___00 to .13 Left Actual_______-0.6_______2.9________0.08 Right Actual______+0.2______3.3________0.05 Rear Range__-0.01 to +1.5_________-0.22 to +0.22 Left Actual______-1.0________________-0.27 Right Actual_____-0.7________________+0.41 I think just shifting the front cross member will correct the front camber problem. The rear is a problem though as the bottom needs to come toward the center on both sides and the toe needs to go out on one and in on the other. Wouldn't adjustable control arms be the answer for the rear? I really don't want to slot the upper mounts for camber because it will screw up my strut tower mounts too. Besides, that won't fix the toe problem. I need a fix that addresses the specific problems and cures them without creating others. In other words, I want the right fix even knowing it won't be the least expensive. You guys are the best - point me in the right direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 If you don't want to mess with the strut tops, then Tim is right. Camber bushings would be the cheapest way to do it. Adjustable control arms would also work, but I get a little nervous adjusting a lot of negative camber in with a threaded rod bearing the load. You probably wouldn't have to worry too much since you'd only adjust .3 degrees. You're actually within spec on the rear toe (total), but it is pointed off to the left a little. You can move it back to the center by slotting the holes in the uprights and sliding the transverse link to the left like Rick Johnson did, but that won't fix your camber. Camber is pretty damn close, I don't know that I would worry about it if this is a street car. .3* is not really very far off. HTH Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Posted May 6, 2004 Author Share Posted May 6, 2004 So now comes my conundrum. Everyone seems to think the numbers really aren't that bad but, in 7,000 miles I've taken the inside edge off all four tires (rotated them once in there). 1/32-1/16 tread on insdie and at least 3/16 on the outside & center. Since the car "squats" when power is applied - and a lot more gets applied now than before" the car will naturally go to a negative camber in the rear every time I accellerate onto the highway, down the street, into my driveway, etc. ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim240z Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 Camber doesn't tend to wear tires all that quickly. But if you couple -ve camber, with toe out, like your left rear, you're gonna chow up your tires. Toe misalignment creates a 'scrubbing' effect on the tires. If your tires were pointed perfectly straight, but running significant camber (+ or -), there is very little rolling resistance...... Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 Well you could use camber bushings to get more positive camber, but that's gonna suck around turns. How about leaving the camber alone and taking corners harder... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 Camber doesn't tend to wear tires all that quickly. But if you couple -ve camber, with toe out, like your left rear, you're gonna chow up your tires. He's got net toe in on the back. So the car would crab very very slightly, and he won't get wear on the left rear from the toe IME. The rears are going to want to drive to the left, and the fronts are going to want to drive straight. I think he's got the tire wear problem down correctly. When he punches the gas, the rear squats and he's got more neg camber, then he's trying to put down 300+ hp to the inside edge of the tire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Posted May 6, 2004 Author Share Posted May 6, 2004 OK - Knowledge is power - someone once said. At this point it appears to lead to a feeling of helplessness. I think the plan will be to start running some Kuho Ecsta 712's and just not worry about the alignment issues that much. I do note that the Nissan specs for the 280Z call for positive toe which, combined with the larger tires, I would think would cause an increase in scrubbing on the front tires. But then, they are compromise set-ups for what my car primarily is - a daily driver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim240z Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 Well the front, with some shifting around of the X-member, you should be able to get perfect. For a road car, I always like to run a little toe in, and a little negative camber. For the rear, I adjusted mine to almost 0 camber (came out a little negative, but tiny amount), and just barely toeing in. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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