What Level Of Gun Control Works For You?

[johnc]

I couldn't believe how inept those cops were.

 

You're asking for a head shot at 50+ yards on a moving target from a 9mm service pistol while under fire and your body is full of more adrenaline then its ever felt before? This wasn't a firing range or an IPSC competition.

 

I competed in IPSC with three LAPD officers who were involved in the shootout (and are very good pistol shooters) and ALL were trying their best to get a head shot. Some got upper chest hits. Some got mid-body hits (which is what ALL of their training focuses on). ALL ran out of ammo and had to run to other offcers and get more. They ALL ran back into the line of fire and continued to try and take these guys down.

 

BTW... There weren't 300 officers firing at the two perps. At any one time there were only 5 to 10 officers within firing range due to the situation itself and orders from command.

 

FYI... Rob Leatham (http://www.robleatham.com/) said it would have been a great shot. I was talking with one of the officers when Rob heard our conversation, walked up, thanked the officer, shook his hand, and said exactly that.

[JMortensen]

http://www.student.oulu.fi/~hmikkola/shootout.html

 

If you want to hear the cops during the thing, check the above link. Only ONE guy says "Aim for the head" and that is right before it cuts off minutes into the audio.

 

Look guys, they WERE able to hit these guys in the chest 100s of times with the 9mm pistols. 100s of times. They just weren't AIMING for the head. I don't care what the training says to do. When you and your fellow cops have unloaded 40 clips into the guys' chests and they are still walking around, CHANGE TACTICS. Aim for the head!!! If you can hit the chest 100's of times, I refuse to believe that you can't hit the head ONCE. That's all it would take. And there were 300 cops there. It doesn't really matter how many were firing, the city of LA devoted 300 cops to stopping 2 guys with automatic weapons and body armor, and COULDN'T GET THE JOB DONE FOR 45 MINUTES. That is just lame. And the thing that really gets me is that they stuck AR-15s in the damn squad cars as a fix.

 

And again, the rifle thing. Why the hell did they go get AR-15s??? DUMB move! Like I said before, give me my .243 and I could have made that head shot from 300 yards. With a .30/06 you wouldn't even need a head shot. I could have hit a human torso at 80 yards with a .30/06. I'm sure I could, even with the adrenaline going. Look at soldiers in war. They've got the adrenaline going and they still manage to kill people who are firing at them with automatic weapons. The simple fact is that the cops were hung up on the assault weapons. If the cops had to have assault weapons too, they could have gone to the military surplus rack and grabbed a couple of M1 Garands and been done with it.

 

I remember afterwards there were a LOT of people critical of how this was handled. Lots of competition shooters and lots of law enforcement types were very critical. Now all I can find on the web is stories of these heroes. Typical.

 

I did find this amusing comment from Jeff Cooper (some gun guy) just now:

 

That noisy shooting at Laurel Canyon in North Hollywood brings to mind the punchline from one of daughter Lindy's recent poems: "Ain't many troubles that a man can't fix, with seven-hundred dollars and a 30-06." Two shots from a 30-06 should have been enough to terminate that confrontation, and, of course, the $700 might serve to buy an extra rifle for the squad car.

[Z-TARD]

It would have been awsome if a private citizen with a bolt action hunting rifle had stopped those two clowns. That episode was probably what sealed the deal for Kalifornias ban on assault weapons. Arguably the dumbest legislation ever passed in this state. Typical knee jerk reaction. However I do agree with them adding AR-15's to patrol cars. A .223 will go through body armor, no problem. Small, high velocity round. Excellent penetrating power at ranges up to about 400 yards. Remember the FBI agents at Waco who were killed by AR-15's? I'm of the opinion that the money that is wasted towards banning guns for everybody would be much better spent on an improved background check system. Law abiding citizens should be allowed to own whatever they want. Transfers of firearms should be handled through dealers, helping to ensure that weapons legally purchased are not later transfered to criminals. You should also be held responsible for criminal actions that are commited with your gun, unless it has previously been reported stolen. This would also go a long way towards keeping guns away from criminals. I don't have a problem with doing the background check or transfer paperwork, but I do have a problem when the government decides which guns law abiding citizens can or cannot own. Bottom line, the 2nd amendment is the cornerstone upon which all of our rights are built upon. Removing the right to keep and bear arms would mean that we are no longer a free country.

 

Mike

[JMortensen]

Ztard, you might be right on the .223 penetrating body armor, I don't really know. I haven't shot an AR-15, but I have shot a Mini-14, which is pretty similar. If I were wanting to take a long distance shot I'd prefer a standard open sight to the peep sight. The aperture on the Mini 14 that I fired was pretty big, so it was more of a "your bullet will go in this general area" sort of a thing.

 

The point about the AR-15s is that the police got those guns in particular because they were "massively outgunned" and the news reported it the same way. If you're referring to how many bullets you can fire in 45 minutes, then both the police and the media were absolutely right. The truth is that the police only needed to fire 2 shots to end the whole thing, and a sporting weapon would have been a more appropriate choice IMO.

 

Kinda reminds me of a trip I made to the shooting range. There were some gang members (bandanas, bunch of military type weapons, the whole bit) shooting skeet when we pulled up to the skeet area. I was shooting my 870 20 gauge with a 26" barrel, and these jackasses were shooting a Winchester 12 gauge "riot gun" with a stainless 20" barrel and black pistol grips on the front and the back. Needless to say I began shooting my skeets, then turning and shooting theirs before they hit the ground (none of them hit a single skeet out of the box of 120 white flyers they brought to the range-pathetic). When they said something I said "Just trying to help!" I bet if those cops had seen my 870 and that riot gun at that store on that day they would have taken the riot gun and left the 870 on the shelf.

 

It all goes back to the "assault weapons" law. The law doesn't target the most powerful weapon, or the most accurate weapon, it targets the "meanest looking" weapon. After the Stockton Massacre there was an Oprah where they took a Ruger 10/22 on stage and asked if it should be banned. No was the universal answer. Then they took it back stage, put a composite folding stock on it and a 30 round banana clip in it and brought it back onstage, and everyone said they wanted to ban it. Same damn gun, and a good one at that. These laws are for people who don't know what an assault weapon is and who are scared by what they don't understand.

[Pop N Wood]

Amen, brother!

[Z-TARD]

I have a flat top AR-15 with a 10X scope monted to it. For accuracy, I'd have to say it's just as accurate as most bolt actions I've shot. It will consistantly put 5 rounds into less than an inch at 100 yards, and is accurate out to about 500-600 yards. Past that, the lightweight bullet tends to lose a lot of energy and gets thrown around by the wind quite a bit. The 223 cartridge makes a lot of sense for police use because although it will defeat body armor, it loses most of it's energy doing so. There is a reduced risk of overpenetration and resulting injury to innocent bystanders. Having said that, personally I'd take a 308 over a 223 any day. I got the AR-15 so my girlfriend would have something to shoot that doesnt knock her backwards into the dirt

 

Mike

[Guest BigWhyteDude]

if you like the ar style rifles and the punch of .308 then here is the best of both worlds.

An Armalite AR-10.

 

http://www.armalite.com/sales/catalog/rifles/ar10t.htm

 

 

 

Andrew