Poundz9oh9 Posted September 5, 2004 Share Posted September 5, 2004 Hey guys, as some of you may know I was close to burning the project to the ground last week because of what I have found, time and time again. I can look the other way at replacing parts because I want to go a different route. But here I am replacing parts that should have been ok. Namely my oil pan. Ok......cracked in shipping, along with the trans pan and inspection cover. No biggie really just a little annoying. From the day I got this "375-400 hp" motor I have been surprised at what I've found. Brand new shiny chrome Edelborck valve covers and air cleaner (with brand new filter). Brand new spark plugs (never ran). All this stuff is nice to have but I find myself wondering why somebody would buy all these parts and put them on a motor just to sell. I would rather have had the old stuff on it so that I could gauge how the motor was running when it was pulled. I started to think what was the PO trying to hide? I pulled the pan today to get it ready to replace, and found abnormal amount of metal shavings in the pan (nothing huge, but quite a few little slivers), along with DARK black oil which also came with a complimentary tbsp or so full of sludge. Oh yeah, also had extremely rusty water in the jackets, almost like he was running straight water with no a/f. Those findings along with the hp claim makes begin to wonder what the actual performance level of this motor may be. I'm already disappointed at what I've found, but here are my questions. Just looking for 3rd/4th/5th etc..... opinions. Is what I've described typical of a 15,000mi motor?? Is 375-400hp achievable with a completely stock valvetrain?? (above not mentioned before, but still wondering) Just looking for some help with these issues, and advice as to what I should do next regarding this stuff. TIA I'll post some pics of my findings in a few days when I get my camera cable back from home (1.5 hrs away) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaleMX Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 When I pulled my 28000 mile LS1 apart I found a small amount of sludge buildup and some metal shavings (very small amount). I took the heads to a shop to have a valve job done and when I picked them up he said that whoever had it before me didn't change the oil very often. He could tell by the clearance on the valve guides. The cylinder walls looked good and the crank was clean so I decided to get some new S2 heads just because . A 15000 miles you should have a real clean engine if it was cared for properly. There will be wear on the bearings and such and shavings will appear, but they should not be excessive if the oil was changed like it should be and the clearances are correct. You can also send the oil out to be analyzed and get a report of any excessive wear. Here's a place to get your oil analyzed. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/terry.html Dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 Dale, that oil site rocks... been reading it for a while, since I decided to become an AMSOIL dealer. Very interesting reading indeed. PoundZ, I bought a custom built crate motor in 1998 and had it in the car less than 3000 miles when it went... $4400 worth of JUNK. Any time you buy a used motor, it is really a crap shoot. Sounds like the previous owner was hard on it... The mileage means nothing if it was abused. I'd go ahead and pull a main and rod cap and get a look at the bearings... And the thrust bearings. That will tell you if the motor needs to be R&Red. My motor died because of oil pump box brace failure... Causing the pump to cavetate and starve the motor... This was after a number of 10:98-11:02 runs... The motor never seated the Total seal rings properly, and we had constantly fought issues with the carb, only to find that it was an issue in the bottom of the motor, creating symptoms that lead us to the TOP of the motor... Until it was torn down... It sounds to me like you will NOT be happy, once you drop a main and rod cap and check them. Something sounds hinky! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaleMX Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 I agree, http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/ is a great site, I have learned alot about oil from there. PoundZ, good luck with your engine. I'd follow Mike's advice about the inspection before you hurt something. Dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poundz9oh9 Posted September 6, 2004 Author Share Posted September 6, 2004 Thanks for the advice guys. I'll look a little more into it this week. Now for the second question I posed, is it possible to get 375-400 hp out of a motor with a stock valvetrain? The motor's supposedly bored 20 over with some unidentifyable heads (supposed to be trick flow). But like I said, everything under the valve covers looks completely stock, complete with solid rockers. Considering the factors I've stated. If this motor deal turns out to be a complete waste of money. What should my next step be......?? I paid good money (to a fellow and respected Hybridz member) for this motor to be used as an anchor for my not yet owned boat. What should I do........??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 Well what specifically makes you think that the valvetrain is stock? Was the motor advertised with a radical cam? Did you get a cam card, or other info for it? Heads alone might make the motor produce more HP, but a bone stock, low compression (less than 9.0:1) 350 chevy starts life in factory trim at less than 270HP... So you do the math... Nice heads alone won't be a huge gain if the required matched cam isn't therer to allow the heads to breath. Slapping on an intake and headers won't do the trick without the cam. That said, if someone went through the trouble of building the motor and putting aluminum heads on it, especially from this site, I can't see them not spending the extra few $$$ and slapping a cam in to tap the power potential. If you are suspicious of the deal, and you think you have been screwed, get your ducks in a row, gather your facts together and get back with the seller. Make them aware of your concerns and inform them of your rights. IF they live close enough (Preferably within the same state) then you can use your local courts to get your story heard and sorted. In Virginia we have what is called a "Warrant in Debt" that party A can swear out against party B. Once that occurs, the two parties are served a summons to go to small claims court (Depending on the claim amount) and the judge will settle it if a mediator assigned by the court can't. Good Luck, and I hope you didn't get screwed... especially by one of our own. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poundz9oh9 Posted September 7, 2004 Author Share Posted September 7, 2004 Thanks again for the help Mike. I'll continue my quest to identify the heads, because I know what cam is supposed to be in there, so that might give me a little more insight. If everything seems in order on the underside (pulling apart this week), then I guess I'll put it back together and see how it runs. On a side note, I just don't understand why somebody would invest a supposed $10,000 on this drivetrain just to let it go so far as to have sludge buildup in it. You'd think it would have been better taken care of it, or used better lubricants, ya know? Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 I agree man. What I've learned is that no one takes as good a care of something as you would... Which is why it is best to just do it yourself! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poundz9oh9 Posted September 8, 2004 Author Share Posted September 8, 2004 Fuc%%#^% $h%&* ..... Hey Mike, I took your advice.......... I'll let the pics speak for themselves. On, a hunch I pulled the oil pump and found this and this is the before mentioned water jacket This is absurd I can't believe this crap, all that $$$$ for this?? What now?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poundz9oh9 Posted September 8, 2004 Author Share Posted September 8, 2004 Oh yeah, the pics were small because I used the thumbnail for the link , you can see the all the horrific details if you go the the recent additions page! [edit] nevermind, I fixed it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poundz9oh9 Posted September 9, 2004 Author Share Posted September 9, 2004 So, what kind of life expectancy can I expect from this motor considering that whatever caused this has been running through the motor (Cam lobe maybe?) long enough to do this? I mean I can change all the bearings and stuff but for what? I can guarantee that there's more damage than what I've seen so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1 Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 Some more checking would tell for sure, but that looks like a complete rebuild is in order to me. Usually if you can see any copper the crank will need turning rather than just a polish. How do the pistons and cylinder walls look? John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike kZ Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 So' date=' what kind of life expectancy can I expect from this motor considering that whatever caused this has been running through the motor (Cam lobe maybe?) long enough to do this? I mean I can change all the bearings and stuff but for what? I can guarantee that there's more damage than what I've seen so far.[/quote'] Like I said with your head question, those are Twisted wedge heads that need custom length pushrods. More than likely the guy used stock pushrods and killed the cam lobes, the trash then scored the bearings. I would take the block appart, (maybe leave in the pistons if they look like they are seated properly), take out the cam, and all bearings, wash the block out, check the crank (may need regrind, or at least a polish). Put in new bearings, cam, and check pushrod lenghts and have some made. Those heads are very good, and you should be able to use this engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 Unfortunately John is right. That is gonna need a rebuild... I was contacted by the seller, and I'm gonn advise the seller & the buyer to work this one offline... As with any motor, you don't know unless you disassemble it. The seller wouldn't have known about the bearings, and by his own admission, the car sat the last few years with less than 1000 miles driven in that time, which would account for the rust... The rest of it, who knows what happened, but you guys should try work this out offline... Mike 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poundz9oh9 Posted September 9, 2004 Author Share Posted September 9, 2004 Well, I can accept the rust (I'm not THAT difficult) besides that can be flushed, but it seems to me that just by changing the oil and the performance of the engine would indicate that something was wrong. Am I right? So, basically, now I need - oil pump - oil pan - cam - main/rod bearings - crank polish or new crank (crank has already been gound 10/10) - custom length pushrods - head gaskets and other misc. pieces when the top is pulled And then worse case scenario, some block prep maybe even bored again if the cylinder walls are shot. And if that's the case I'd need - machine work - rings at a minimum (if not pistions AND rings) Am I forgetting anything guys? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 Nope, that about covers it. Sounds like Mike K's comment might be spot on... Get the info for the cam and pull a pushrod... Have it checked and see what the length is Vs. what it should be, and that will tell you a lot. On the plus side, you still have a very nice platform to build from. ...Just trying to make lemonade! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poundz9oh9 Posted September 9, 2004 Author Share Posted September 9, 2004 Thanks MIke, And trust me, I'm trying to make some lemonade also. But it could use a litter sugar though. Right now it's tasting awfully bitter ya know. The only thing with the cam info though, is that I can't seem to find any info in it either. Other than it's a "280 Comp Cam" as stated by the PO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poundz9oh9 Posted September 10, 2004 Author Share Posted September 10, 2004 Oh, and just to answer Johns question about the pistons and cylinders..... Well, the cylinder walls have a lip on the top of them, so the block would need to be bored up. On a side note. You guys gave a great diagnosis. Although I haven't measured the pushrod length I did call trick flow and they told me that for those heads the length is 8.350. Whatever that actually comes out to in inches????? While I was still looking for a glimmer of hope and pulled the lifters and cam. The lifters were concave on the ends (checked with straightedge), the front cam bearing was scored like the above pictured rod cap, and the cam lobes were irregularly worn. And then my favorite part ......the stamp on the piston says .060. So what does that mean????? I'll tell ya. It's bored to the max already and NOTHING can be done. Now correct me if I'm wrong... but an engine with this sort of wear would undoubtedly be noticed....if not by a knock or rattle, then by the crappy performance???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 PoundZ, I'd recommend getting back with the seller... Try to work something out if possible. I'm guessing you bought this "As is - Where is - no warranty implied". Hopefully the seller will see your side of the story and try to make it right. Not knowing the full story, or if you had this motor running in your Z (I honesty didn't catch "when" you bought this motor), and not wanting to be partial at the moment because I don't have all the facts, I'm trying to be fair to all parties involved. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poundz9oh9 Posted September 11, 2004 Author Share Posted September 11, 2004 Hey Mike, We're working it off of Hybridz. Although it doesn't seem like it's going to come to a satisfactory end on my part. I'll keep you posted. By the way, the motor was never ran in my possession. Hell, the car still needs a little more work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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