SR20DET info needed, not another "will it fit" thr

[Guest JAMIE T]

Hey gang, The only experiance I have with SR20DET's is the Pulsar GTi-R version. It has piston oilers and full floating forged pistons as OE equipment. Do all DET's have the same features? I know they all don't have the individual TB's like the GTi-R version(a nice feature). Let me know what you know! Thanks!

[Hugh]

The blacktop RWD SR20DET's have cast pistons, exactly the same part number that are found in the Pulsar GTI-R engine. I've been told that they cast skirts with forged dishes on top... not sure how that would work, but they all look cast to me.

 

The later S13 and S14, S15 all have these pistons in them. The redtop pistons (early S13) are missing the oil channel that catches the flow from the squirter up underneath it. The oil squirters are standard in all the turbo SR20's. THe oil squirters on the blacktop motors flow more than the redtop (all because of the cooling channel under the piston)

 

THe head in the Pulsar is what makes it so great. The valvetrain has solid lash, whereas the RWD has hydraulically adjusted lash. This leads to rocker arms flying off at high RPM (like past redline) This can be solved by putting in a rocker arm stopper kit (cheap) or by going all the way to solid lash (expensive)

 

The individual throttle bodies are great for response, and were designed for the Rally engine in the GTI-R. They pick up quick, but fall off in the top end. You're better off with a single larger throttle body and plenum if you're looking for big power. The individuals are fine for a low power motor, though. Basically, you don't want the individuals with a really large turbo, or it will hurt more than help.

 

The single throttle body at 60mm has made over 500rwhp on several SR's. I'm personally putting on a Q45 85mm throttle body with a Greddy surge tank. I'm headed for 600rwhp with the new turbo kit.

[Guest JAMIE T]

HEHE, I don't usiually take people seriously whos screen name starts with "One bad" whatever. But, You've got my attention. Thanks for helping me clear up some information. It will help when I'm looking for an engine. I want to do two cars, one daily driver B13 SE-R with a GTi-R engine and a S14 DET in a 240Z for weekend warrior duty. Is it true that S14's have a T28 ball bearing turbo? What about the GTi-R? From what I understand, they do.

[Hugh]

The name started out as a total joke 4 years ago. Since then, its been hard to drop. I eventually made my 180sx keep up with the cocky sounding name. (395rwhp stock internal SR20DET)

 

The S14 comes with a ball bearing T28 that can make 300-310hp at the wheels with great tuning. The S13 turbo is much smaller, and will top out around 270hp. The response of the S14 engine in stock form is better, along with the factory rating of 15hp more.

 

I personally use an S13 engine. Once you're going all the way with either engine, the S14's advantages don't outweigh the price. Many will still disagree with me on that point, so take it for what its worth. The top end capabilities of both engines are equal.

 

The GTI-R doesn't have a ball bearing turbo. It's also some weird combination that people call a T28... the compressor housing is some type of T3 whereas the S14 has a T04B housing. The whole stock turbo argument gets thrown out when you see the other turbos that you can buy for $1000 and make 350-400hp without an aftermarket manifold. Of course you need good fuel management.

 

I'd start any Z SR swap with a good standalone. Drop the SR wiring harness altogether. The cost of these parts pays for half the standalone. Later on, you have the ability to do anything to your engine, as well.

[Zhadman]

I also believe that a stand alone is the way to go... especially for us SR S30's. Many in the Silvia/240sx community seem to shy away from the stand alone and instead piggy-back the hell out of the stock ECU. This works very well for those that need to pass some sort of emissions testing ( since the stock ECU interfaces with all the smog equipment), and/or do not want the hassle of dyno tuning thier car.

 

I feel that, whatever your setup (including stock), you can get alot more out of your engine with a SA EMS. The problem lies in choosing one. There are quite a few out there (spanning a wide price range). Any thoughts? I've been looking at the Autronic unit.

[Hugh]

I own the Electromotive Tec3. I absolutely love this computer. It's very expensive, though.

 

The Haltech E6X is plenty for what's needed. A lot of guys have made a lot of power with that computer on the SR. The E11 would be nice, but once again... very expensive.

 

I like how Electromotive includes their full ignition system, and most others don't. If you figure the cost of a good standalone, plus ignition, then the Tec3 doesn't sound so bad.

 

I also piggy backed the hell out of my stock SR ECU in the beginning. I had a ROM tuned ECU with an SAFC on it. The ECU was tuned for a GT2530, and I had a T04S! hehheheh.... people couldn't believe it ran as well as it did. Of course it only made 345rwhp like that. It also ran pig rich in the low end without any solution. The piggy backs can only do so much.

 

The 395 I made was with the identical engine setup as 345, but with the Tec3 and me tuning. A good computer and ignition can go a long way! 50hp!

[Zhadman]

I did some research on the Tec 3. Looks like a complete setup will run around $3000 with all the sensors and the harness. How easy is it to tune?

[Hugh]

I got my full setup for $2000. (knew someone with a bit of a discount) The market price is more like $2300.

 

It's difficult to install, only because you must fabricate the crank angle sensor. If you have built stuff out of metal before, it shouldn't be a problem. Then of course you must build the entire wiring harness. This took me two days. ALl the wires are installed into the ECU connector, but must be ran to where you need them, trimmed, then terminated into the supplied connectors.

 

You don't need the narrowband sensor that Electromotive sells if you have a wideband. I bought the Innovate Motorsports LM1: http://www.innovatemotorsports.com This wideband is fully programmable and they also have calibration info specifically for the Tec3. It can also be used to output to a second device. I use an Apexi turbo timer with A/F display. I then calibrated the second output of the LM1 to display correct A/F on the Apexi gauge.

 

You can do that with any A/F gauge, or even a simple digital voltmeter. The LM1 is wonderful.

 

You can get both the Tec3 and the LM1 from http://www.ka24de.com

 

He sells this stuff cheaper than anyone I think. (and knows the engine)

[Guest JAMIE T]

Absolutly, stand-alone is a must! I will use Holley Commander 950. The price is right and apparently support is good too.

 

About the GTi-R turbo. I don't know what it is, but a fellow I know made 305 WHP with a stock GTi-R swap in a '93 SE-R. The upgrades were limited to a nice front mount IC and a JWT ecu with Cobra MAF and a 300ZXTT fuel pump. He had unlimited dyno usage(as USED to have), so he had plenty of tuning time with the wide-band.

[Zhadman]

Do you have any pictures of your SR with the Tec3 wired up? I would be interested in seeing how it cleans the motor up. I still haven't found too much info on what can be removed when switching to a SA EMS. Also, How did you setup the TPS sensor on the SR? Did it require any customizing?

[Hugh]

Here's my engine:

 

 

 

This one shows the crank trigger wheel I fabricated. (crank pulley has teeth now)

 

 

Here you can see the engine with the mag sensor bracket mounted to the front cover to read the crank trigger wheel:

 

 

Another angle:

 

 

And here's a shot of it in my old 180sx. I'm not a clean install kinda guy. I usually put the kitchen sink in and leave it if it goes fast.

 

 

That was all installed in this car:

 

 

and here's the old dyno sheet from just after tuning the Tec3:

 

 

Thats 399.8rwps which converts to ~395rwhp

[Hugh]

Oh, and here's a video or two to show you what it ran/sounded like:

 

Short track race against a badass skyline GT-R:

http://66.194.152.253/%7evideof6/zeroyonvideos/1bad180sxVSskylineGTR.mpg

 

Just doing a burnout:

http://66.194.152.253/%7evideof6/features/zeroyonSep03-linelock.mpg

[Guest JAMIE T]

OK, 1BAD180SX qualifies as a SR expert IMO. If using SA EFI, do I need the OE igniter that seems to be EXTRA when you purchase an SR? As stated, I intend on using the Holley Commander 950 universal 4cyl. system. $880 from Summit sounds like a good deal for as powerful as it is. FWIW, I do intend on getting the car running with the OE turbo, then step-up later. I think I want the S14 model so I can put the turbo on something else later, maybe a B13 SE-R when I do the GTi-R engine swap. Or a LS/VTEC swap '88-'91 Civic 4 door.

 

What is the maximum safest HP/TQ you've heard of using all stock internal components? I want to put alittle nitrous on my 240Z.

[Mikelly]

What happened to stuffing the drive train from your Gen4 camaro in it???

 

Man, you change your mind more than your underwear! Reminds me of me!

 

Mike 8)

[Hugh]

OK' date=' 1BAD180SX qualifies as a SR expert IMO. If using SA EFI, do I need the OE igniter that seems to be EXTRA when you purchase an SR? As stated, I intend on using the Holley Commander 950 universal 4cyl. system. $880 from Summit sounds like a good deal for as powerful as it is. FWIW, I do intend on getting the car running with the OE turbo, then step-up later. I think I want the S14 model so I can put the turbo on something else later, maybe a B13 SE-R when I do the GTi-R engine swap. Or a LS/VTEC swap '88-'91 Civic 4 door.

 

What is the maximum safest HP/TQ you've heard of using all stock internal components? I want to put alittle nitrous on my 240Z.[/quote']

 

Please direct me to tech specs of this standalone from Holley. I need to know specifically what comes with it to know for sure.

 

I am using Electromotive ignition. I completely eliminated the coil packs, ignitor, and most of the wiring harness. (you don't need any of it in a Z)

[Zhadman]

FWIW, I do intend on getting the car running with the OE turbo, then step-up later.

 

That's exactly what I intend to do as well. For my initial tune I don't want the added complexities of modified components. I want to get the engine up and running smooth with my SA first. Then I will have some experience with tuning the EMS and can better integrate modifications later.

 

I declined to purchase an ignitor chip (or for that matter an ECU) when I picked up my SR because I knew I was going SA.

 

Here's a link and some info on the Holley Commander 950:

(If you do a bit of digging you will find that Holley also offers a way to integrate a Wide Band O2 sensor for tuning)

 

 

http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLine/Products/C950/C950.html

 

Features and Engine / Hardware Compatibility

Works with 4, 6 (even fire), and 8-cylinder engines.

Can operate as a speed density system

- Uses engine vacuum to sense engine load.

- Best for street-driven vehicles.

- Achieves optimum response and driveability.

Can operate in Alpha-N mode

- Uses throttle position as indication of engine load.

- Use with engine with low manifold vacuum due to radical cams.

16 x 16 Fuel and Ignition timing maps.

 

Compatible with 1, 2 or 3 bar MAP sensors

 

- Naturally aspirated engines.

- Blown and turbocharged engines.

Compatible with a GM and Chrysler IAC motor for best idle stabilization.

Compatible with GM knock sensor.

Operates in open or closed loop

- Full control of closed loop parameters.

 

Works with port fuel injection

 

- Controls up to 8 high impedance injectors.

- Controls up to four low impedance injectors.

- Controls 8 low impedance injectors with the addition of PN 534-122.

Works with throttle body fuel injection

Controls throttle body with progressive or 1:1 linkage.

Full timing for:

- Startup and warm-up fuel enrichment.

- Acceleration fuel enrichment based on MAP and TPS sensors.

- Programmable RPM scale.

Timing control function can be achieved through the use of:

- Small cap computer controlled GM HEI (stock GM or Holley PN 890-160).

- Large cap computer controlled GM HEI.

- Ford TFI distributor.

- Magnetic crank trigger.

- Hall effect crank trigger.

- Programmable fuel pump and cooling fan control.

- Integrated rev limiter.

- A data-logger is included with the software.

- ECU size is 5.5" x 4.75" x 2.0".

[Guest JAMIE T]

Mike, you know me... I like to keep my options open 8)

 

I'd think I can fetch a pretty good price for my Z28. I can buy 2 SR20DET's, and ANOTHER car to put one of them in for what I can get for my Z28.

 

Another reason is simply I am starting a new business. I need what's HOT in the market. 4 cyl's. and turbocharging play in nicely to that. I also want another El Camino for a shop truck. It will be bagged and shaved. With a big block.

 

The SR20 will make the same power as the LT1 when turbo'd and tuned correctly. I think for under $4K, I can build the SR for the 240Z to produce 400-ish whp.

[Hugh]

What sort of ignition will you use with this thing?

 

It won't work with the idle air controller, just like the Tec3 doesn't. The SR IAC is weird. I just use the throttle return stop screw to adjust idle.

 

The stock water temp sensor will work, the knock sensor won't.

 

You should run it with a 3bar map and intake air temp sensor.

 

It can work with either a hall effect or magnetic sensor... which do they reccomend? Will you be making something like my trigger wheel, or will it be like an SDS where you put magnets on the crank pulley?

 

Whats the crank timing resolution, anyway? The tec3 is 60 teeth, SDS has two magnets or something like that. Just wondering.

 

I can help out a lot when you're installing it all, feel free to email me with questions.

[Guest clay]

About the GTi-R turbo. I don't know what it is, but a fellow I know made 305 WHP with a stock GTi-R swap in a '93 SE-R. The upgrades were limited to a nice front mount IC and a JWT ecu with Cobra MAF and a 300ZXTT fuel pump. He had unlimited dyno usage(as USED to have), so he had plenty of tuning time with the wide-band.

 

Jamie, I've got this exact setup (for sale BTW) and although that HP figure is possible, I doubt the turbo would last at that level. I've got a full 3" exhaust (with a cat) and I'm making 250whp at 14psi on 91oct. I know of several folks up around 275whp without a cat at a little higher boost, but not too many up at 300whp levels on the stock T28 (or whatever you want to call it). I've got several dyno sheets from Gti-r Engines though I can send you if you want. Let me know. BTW I've got a 92 SE-R, FMIC, JWT ECU, Cobra MAF, Intake, etc and it's a ton of fun. The new disco-potato turbo is a nice upgrade and about as big as you would want to go on a FWD car. IMO of course.

clay

[Hugh]

The Disco Potato will make the same or less power than a stock S14/S15 Silvia turbo. Thats a huge waste of money. Dyno sheets and pricetags have proven... its magazine hype. Nothing more.