Congress passed another tax cut.

[Guest Phil1934]

So does anyone other than freedomfighter see this as a good thing? Or just a shameless attempt to buy votes from the masses? Without spending cuts it's the same as your credit card company telling you they will not charge you this month, but will forward the balance with interest to the following month. Would this stimulate YOUR economy for the month?

[Pop N Wood]

Did he pass a new tax cut or just extend the previous one?

 

The thing passed congress pretty overwhelmingly. Kind of hard to argue against eliminating the marriage penalty.

[Zerrari GTO]

It's an extension of existing tax cuts.

I don't know about you but a per child tax credit and retaining tax relief for married couples will definately stimulate my economy.

[Mike kZ]

I agree with you Zerrari!

 

Hey you georgia guys, did you see this: http://hybridz.org/nuke/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=37134

[Mikelly]

It certainly offsets the Marriage penalty... don't see HOW we can convince young people to get married BEFORE sex, when you GET TAXED for getting married in the FIRST PLACE... Another something we can THANK Mr. Clinton for...

 

Mike

[johnc]

I see it as a Good Thing!

[Guest SuperDave]

I gotta come back out of lurking to address this.

 

Another tax cut is simply going to increase and shift the burden a little further into the lives of your children and mine. We're already so far in debt as a country that fully 10% of our budget vanishes just to pay the interest on that debt. Between these tax cuts and profligate spending (whatever happened to Republicans being the party of fiscal conservatism?), the current administration is adding to that debt at a record rate. Next year's proposed budget will make the largest-ever addition to the national debt, their third record year in a row.

 

And, mind you, not a penny of what it's costing us to be in Iraq and Afghanistan appears in that budget.

 

Last year, if you were making between $50-75k, you saved something like $1400 on your tax bill. In that same period, your personal share of the National Debt went up $1800. In one year. Of course, you might say, that's just an abstract figure. Of course it is - how can any normal human being actually visualize seven trillion dollars? And it's not like you're going to have to pay this debt back out of your own pocket.

 

Or will you? Many of you are in my generation, baby boomers who will represent the first class of our society in which more people are drawing Social Security than are contributing to it. We may end up having to dip into the Social Security Trust Fund while we get it figured out. That's a huge fund - 1.6 trillion dollars.

 

Oops. We can't. Every penny of that fund is loaned to the Federal Government. Over 22% of the Federal Debt is owed to Social Security. Somebody's gonna have to pay that back before we can dip into it, because right now it's all IOU's.

 

You know what scares me the most about the debt? Another 22% is in the hands of foreign investors.

 

Enjoy your tax cuts. I wish I hadn't gotten mine. My children can't afford it.

[Heavy Z]

I agree, Dave. We're spending with reckless abandon by any measure, compounded by our looming obligation to boomers. If you haven't seen this article, a recent eye-opener:

 

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/09/12/MNG2S8NOI21.DTL

 

How we ignore this one escapes me, it's like ignoring a guy ready to puke 8) on you...only the debt is more messy.

[Guest freedomfighter]

So does anyone other than freedomfighter see this as a good thing?[/b'] Or just a shameless attempt to buy votes from the masses? Without spending cuts it's the same as your credit card company telling you they will not charge you this month, but will forward the balance with interest to the following month. Would this stimulate YOUR economy for the month?

 

LOL...

 

Hey man, I'm just lookin' out for you! If I didn't care, I wouldn't comment.

[Z-Dreamer]

Like most American’s, I must work until May before I can claim the money I earn is my own due do the unfair tax system we currently all live under.

 

That means I must surrender FOUR MONTHS of my hard earned dollars to a government that in turn grossly mismanages it!

 

The whole idea of taxing income is stupid from an economical standpoint. And down right evil when the monies are then redistributed to others because of their so called "need".

 

So when my family, (wife and four children) say it's a good thing that we get a tax break because of the number of children or the fact that we are married, it's because it's OUR MONEY we get back! Not your money or the governments! I don't want your money, just my money back!

 

If this country went to a pure flat sales tax on everything, we could fund SSI, Medicare and pay over all far lower taxes as individuals and families.

 

Mark

[Guest freedomfighter]

I gotta come back out of lurking to address this.

 

1. Another tax cut is simply going to increase and shift the burden a little further into the lives of your children and mine. We're already so far in debt as a country that fully 10% of our budget vanishes just to pay the interest on that debt.

2. Between these tax cuts and profligate spending' date=' the current administration is adding to that debt at a record rate. Next year's proposed budget will make the largest-ever addition to the national debt, their third record year in a row.

3. [b'](whatever happened to Republicans being the party of fiscal conservatism?)[/b]

 

4. Or will you? Many of you are in my generation, baby boomers who will represent the first class of our society in which more people are drawing Social Security than are contributing to it. We may end up having to dip into the Social Security Trust Fund while we get it figured out. That's a huge fund - 1.6 trillion dollars.

 

Oops. We can't. Every penny of that fund is loaned to the Federal Government. Over 22% of the Federal Debt is owed to Social Security. Somebody's gonna have to pay that back before we can dip into it, because right now it's all IOU's.

 

5. You know what scares me the most about the debt? Another 22% is in the hands of foreign investors.

 

6. Enjoy your tax cuts. I wish I hadn't gotten mine. My children can't afford it.

 

1. Tell us something new. The here and now debt (as compared with projected debt) has been there and has been growing for decades... there have been these really useful... and oooo sooo scary buzz numbers every election year. That doesn't mean I think debt is good... nor do I think big government spending is ok all the time. I just happen to find this incredibly hypocritical of the left... considering the fact that most of the deficit trouble can be easily traced back to liberal over spending by that same left side of the political picture that's currently complaining.

 

2. This is actually true... ONLY if you FAIL to adjust for inflation. This one is very simple... it would be like comparing a CURRENT 350Z to cars back in 1972... and saying that it is the most expensive car ever! What you are quoting, and sadly believing is one of the BIGGEST LIES of the left, and I am sad for you. If you compare apples to apples... it's something like the 17th or 18th biggest deficit, FAR from the worst, and certainly not even close to a record...

...and by the way, life in America has continued to get more and more incredible with each passing decade. Not worse. Sure, everyone can find a sob story of failure, BUT the greater whole continues to grow and develop into the greatest, richest, strongest country the world has ever known... in spite of that big, bad deficit.

 

3. The looming problem that Clinton left this administration from over spending and over taxing... the.BOMB (tech bubble burst)... 9-11... War number one... War number two... to name the most obvious.

I'm totally against big government... I don't agree with everything Bush has done... I, personally, think a flat tax would be cool, and certainly fair (although I'm still looking into this idea... and am not totally sure about it just yet...)

 

4. If you, or any American, is banking on SSI for your retirement... then I am again, very sad for you. SSI was NEVER intended as a retirement fund to completely support you. Go back to its very beginning... it was a temporary bridge... a little extra something... I see it as icing on the cake. Something I don't need, and will probably give away to some charity anyway. That being said, I don't agree with spending it or borrowing against it either. Again, your quoting unfounded, unsubstantiated claims from the left that come up every election year in an attempt to SCARE the seniors into voting to the left. Its sick, its twisted... its based on lies. And, again, its very, very sad.

 

5. They have debt we owe them... THEY have debt THEY OWE US... period. It's called a World Economy. It's nothing to be feared... as long as we the people continue to be always vigilant... always asking... always seeking the truth... and always standing for what is right.

 

6. Prove it... you don't have to take your tax cut, dude. IF, oh boy... heavy emphasis on IF... you REALLY MEAN IT... then give it back. The IRS would gladly accept your voluntary contribution. I hear they take check, credit card... even cash... SO PROVE IT. Otherwise, that's an incredibly EMPTY comment! I'm sure we would all love to see your post with all the included proof that you did just that... gladly, with joy in your ever loving heart... gave back whatever tax cut Bush gave you!

I, for one, will NOT be holding my breath.

[Guest Phil1934]

The debt is owed to all who buy government securities and savings bonds. And I bought the max this year. I bonds are one of the highest paying returns out there. Currently Japan owns about 30% of the outstanding bonds. Do you really want a foreign government to become a major holder? The deficit is actually understated. I've been hearing for a year that Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac could fail with losses twice that of bailing out the savings and loans. A news report yesterday said their accounting was fiction, so that's another tab we'll pick up.

[strotter]

I totally blame the Democrats for my still having to pay taxes. After all, they control both houses of Congress, as well as the Executive branch. D**n them! Err, no, wait...

[Guest SuperDave]

For the record, I've never voted for a Democrat for President, and this will be my seventh Presidential election.

 

Here's the National Debt, in inflation-corrected numbers:

 

 

I could only find data up to 1998 that was already collated for my lazy a$$.

 

Here's the actual dollars, not adjusted, and who is responsible for them:

 

 

Don't believe me, guys. Draw your own conclusions. I freely admit my bias.

 

Now, there are some plausible arguments suggesting that national debt is not an intrinsically bad thing. Some of it makes sense. I have no objection to being in debt as a country. I just don't like to see 10% of our budget going to service it. Especially when the current administration obviously has no qualms about increasing it another 10% per year.

 

I'll visit the upcoming Social Security crisis (it's nice to consider yourself above needing it, but I'm not, and a significant percentage of America won't be when they retire) in a future post. I'm still recovering from what I've learned.

[SportZ2]

For everyone that thinks the tax cuts are a bad thing, you can get a form from the IRS that will allow you to give all of the tax break back to the government. Fill it out and attach it to your return.

 

I've noticed some of the big shots in Hollywood talking about the tax cuts being bad, but when told they can give their cut back they change the subject.

 

The tac cuts have worked for me. The past couple of years I've actually gotten a refund and guess what, I put it right back in the economy buying stuff for my car and kid.

[Guest Phil1934]

I just don't want to be an enabler.

[Pop N Wood]

I hear you on the deficits. I didn't like them when Reagan was ringing them up. But then when Clinton actually ran surpluses I thought maybe they weren't such a big deal. Now with George W I don't know what to think. At least Reagan seemed to have a plan: specific cuts to stimulate the economy. But George, I don't know. Seems like he has just backed himself into a corner (with the war and all) and now he doesn't know how to get out. Hopefully I am wrong.

 

But about these specific tax changes. I have to say Dubya is the first guy to give people like me a noticeable cut. Seems like the rich guys get theirs, and the poor have people championing their cause. But us in the middle seem to get nothing but lip service and the brunt of the taxes. Maybe we should just think of them as a reappropriation of taxes.

 

The marriage penalty is very real. My wife and I actually got married in February of 93 rather than December of 92 because a December wedding would have cost us a full $1800 in additional taxes. Of course, now she stays home so I no longer have anything to gain, but I still think the marriage penalty is a good thing to get rid of.

 

Telling people to give back the cut may be an amusing argument, but it still comes back to a fundamental question of fairness. At some point we need to pay the bills, so what constitutes a fair share for each of us?

 

The percent of the budget that goes to debt servicing is a valid argument. I also believe the economic theories that says goverments can operate without a balanced budget, but what point is "too much"?

[wheelman]

Freedom,

You know instead of telling us all how stupid we are for being concerned about the state of the economy and the federal budget why don't you explain to all of us why the deficit and large national debt are nothing to worry about. Maybe they aren't the highest ever in inflation adjusted dollars but they are very large and getting larger.

 

I for one would like to see some changes made that will streamline the tax system and provide more funds to the government at the same time. I think a flat consumption tax would go a long way toward this goal.

 

As for not needing social security because you are well off, thats cool, I wish all of us could be in that position but it just aint so, although I'm working toward that goal myself with several investment properties. I also think it's a little short sighted on your part to think that just because you won't need it that the problems with it won't affect you. The economy affects all of us no matter how well off we are. I'm guessing that you own a business of some kind and you have employees. How would your business be affected if the employer portion of the SSI with-holding was increased 25% to help cover a social security system shortfall? Would that affect your bottom line? What about your personal take home? Something to think about. What if most of the retiring baby boomers decided to withdraw their 401K moneys faster to make up for a smaller social security payment, wouldn't that have an affect on the stock market? Would that in turn affect you? What about the rest of the economy? Did all the money lost when the tech bubble burst affect the economy? Seems to me there is a potential for the retiring baby boomers to have a large downward impact on the stock market when they start withdrawing funds from their 401k plans (selling stocks), or am I wrong in this?

 

Wheelman

[Guest freedomfighter]

Wheelman,

I never said anyone was stupid, simply missinformed... or buying into lies that are all over the media every single day. I will gather some facts together and post a proper and polite response to your questions later tonight. I thought it was important to respond right away to a couple of the comments you made. I don't think people are stupid, and it bothers me a bit when I'm accused of saying so.

 

I for one would like to see some changes made that will streamline the tax system and provide more funds to the government at the same time. I think a flat consumption tax would go a long way toward this goal.

 

I said the same thing, dude. I'm still researching the flat tax, but on the surface... I think it sounds cool.

 

As for the SSI... being a hard working guy who has made some good decisions and had some good results has nothing to do with my opinion about SSI. I have close family and friends who do depend on it. I'm not against it. I stated this very clearly in my post. It's very sad when someone sees SSI as there only retirement, because that was never its intent. Its even more sad when SSI is used to scare people. That was my only point regarding SSI.

You ask great questions and I would be happy to share my opinions. You come across as a very sharp person, and I have really enjoyed many of your other posts.

[Pop N Wood]

When Ross Perot was running there was a lot of talk about his flat tax plan. One article said the biggest drawback to any income tax plan is defining income.

 

For people who get a paycheck it seems pretty straight forward. For people with businesses, stocks, capital gains, inheritances etc. it can get awfully confusing. Especially if you still want to exempt specific incomes to encourage certain types of investments, or tell home business people what expenditures are business expenses and what they have to pay out of their taxable "income". That means everything needs to be codified, which is then subject to political manipulation and before you know it nothing has been simplified.

 

Point of sale and value added taxes seem just as complicated to me.

 

But flat tax or not, you still have to decide what level of deficit spending you can tolerate.