Congress passed another tax cut.

[wheelman]

Pop,

You're exactly right, just because the tax system is reformed doesn't mean the government will be fiscally responsible. I was just proposing that a flat consumption tax and elimination of the income tax has the potential to bring more money into the government coffers without hammering us as much. If it was set up to not tax food and basic utilities then the poor would get the break they need.

 

You also made a vary good point about defining what is and isn't taxable. Here's an example from our current tax code. My salary is taxed at about 18% after deductions each year but when you add in the medicare and social security taxes it works out closer to 45%. If was to quit my job and live off of my stock investments (stocks and options trading) all my profits are considered capital gains which is taxed at 20%. So I would be ahead to pay the capital gains and evade the medicare and social security portions. Unfortunately for me I'm not at that point yet. This is just one of the methods used by people who know what they're doing to avoid paying more taxes than they have to. There are lots of other ways as well, but if Iwas to go into that this post would get very long.

 

 

Freedom,

I know you didn't actually call all of us stupid but that was the general impression that came from the post, at least to me anyway.

 

 

There are no easy answers to this debate. The American people (all of us) have become to used to being bribed into voting for a given party or politician for things to be easily changed. Unfortunately it's going to take a decision on all of our parts to make some hard choices and do what must be done so we don't saddle our children and grand-children with our problems. I don't know exactly what the changes are but I do know we won't like most of them and the longer we wait to tkae care of things the harder it will be.

 

Wheelman

[Guest freedomfighter]

Pop and Wheelman,

I couldn't agree with your last two posts more. Perot had some incredible ideas. He was that entrepreneur type that I was talking about in another post somewhere else. There was alot about Perot that I really loved... accept for the fact that I knew he was going to put Clinton in office.

I called my accountant earlier... because of your earlier post... to ask him for a brief but detailed description of my position on this subject. I know the spirit of my position, but count on him to handle the details. He's a great CPA with almost 30 years of experience. He said he would call me as soon as possible. I hope you find it to be interesting... I'm sure he'll find some way to bill me for it...

[johnc]

Especially if you still want to exempt specific incomes to encourage certain types of investments, or tell home business people what expenditures are business expenses and what they have to pay out of their taxable "income".

 

This is EXACTLY the problem with our tax code today. It has been so warped by social engineering that its more a part of the Department of Health and Human Services then the IRS.

 

Simplify, simplify, simplify. A flat tax with no social engineering (including the removal of the mortgage interest tax deduction) is the best idea. Social engineering should be accomplished by the various departments specifically responsible for it. Child credits (payments directly to families qualified) come directly from HHS. Mortgage interest credits comes directly from FannieMae or FreddyMac.

 

That way, we actually see the dollars spent instead if having them hidden in the income side of the revenue equation.

[Kevin Shasteen]

For those who think a "Flat Tax" is a great idea...I have a news flash for ya. WE ALREADY HAVE A FLAT TAX. It is called an excise tax. Everytime you buy something, non food item, you pay an excise tax.

 

The govt created the income tax, (War Time Tax) which is a Federal Tax and only suppose to be triggered in time of war. This kind of tax can be utilized providing said tax was to be aportioned amongst the popultion of each state. If one state had a higher population then it owed more whereas if another state had a lesser population then it owed less than the state w/a higher population. Currently, the Income Tax is being applied as a direct tax which violates the constitution that states such as tax is suppose to be an indirect tax...but it is still being applied as a direct tax and being touted as a voluntary tax - yea right!

 

So if govt doesnt follow their own rules regarding how an indirect tax can be applied, then what makes you believe they will follow any other rules, they create, that will end up removing revenue from big govt that gets put back in to the hands of the people?

 

The national debt is not a left or right issue. It is socialism at its worst - a redistribution of the wealth that every people of each state should get to experience for themselves..not just big govt.

 

I do believe that any tax cut is a relief and good for the people, yet I believe it is too little and too late. Keep in mind every little bit helps but what good does it do to give a few bucks back when your propery taxes are increased, jobs are outsourced, living expenses are increased, and the national debt's interest rates astronaumically increase with every new year?

 

We cant keep outsourcing American Jobs and expect the economy to get better with a national debt that is out of control. There will come a point in time where the debt owed -vs- those in the income earning (those who have a career supporting job) sector will no longer be able to "pay their fair share" and still be able to make ends meat.

 

I believe we have surpassed that point in time. The automotive mfg's have been offereing 0% interest on new cars in an attempt to continue their increased sales. At what point in time will the new car market become saturated (I believe it already has)...what happens then? People will stop buying as many newer cars - then the auto mfg's will have to decrease production...more layoffs....more plant closings...more people removed fromthe working sector....more people forced to get a lessor paying job just to survive.

 

I remember Fox news reported, about three months ago, that over 2 million American jobs were lost in the two years after 9.11.2004. This 2 million figure does not include all the career supporting jobs we lost, to 3rd world countries, from the 1970's up to the 9.11 date. We cant keep increasing the debt, shoving our mfg jobs to a 3rd world and expect our market to continue to remain healthy.

 

In order to have a market there must be people working in career supporting jobs in order to sustain said market.

 

Something has to give. Either the products being sold will have to be sold cheaper, or the debt will have to be lessened. You cant have it both ways.

 

Any economist out there? What does it say about your market when you have both Inflation rising as well as products being sold cheaper...and both these issues are happening at the same time?

 

BTW: in a debt based economy - I'm speaking about how money enters the system...not commenting on the actual national debt. For those that are not aware: while we were on the Gold & Silver standard - money was "SPENT" into society. Once we were removed from the Gold & Silver standard and replaced it w/a paper note system, money was then "BORROWED" into society at interest. This is what I mean when I use the term Debt Based Economy.

 

When you borrow money into society to support the market, the borrowing creates the principle of that debt. The interest of said debt is never created. So in order to pay both the principle and the interest of a debt one would have to borrow more money - you still dont pay the interest on the debt...you merely create more debt! You can not confuse book keeping based on a Gold & Silver Standard with that of the book keeping on a Debt Based Economy. If you do you will only be confused into believing that interest of the debt can be paid.

 

All the money we have in this sytem made it in to our system only because someone prior to you borrowed it into the system. This is the economical slippery slope you get on when a nation adopts a paper note system as its currency.

 

There is no relief - only bankruptsy...or continue to borrow and look the other way while the debt increases.

 

This means those who do work - have to work that much harder merely to pay the "ever increasing debt". If the debt continues to grow then you have to work that much harder just to keep said debt's interest in check...unfortunately this means you get to take less home for ends meat to put on the table and in your kid's stomachs.

 

This is the insideousness of a debt based economy.

 

The Debt is owed to the bankers who give our politicians freedom to borrow as much as they want for whatever political plan moves them. The bankers get rich, the politicians get rich - meanwhile making its citizens gaurantors of paying said debt back....what a scam.

 

I just wanna know when we will bring back tar and feathering (not really-but it makes me feel good to say such a thing)

 

How many generations can endure such a debt based economical system? It appears we are about to find out in this next decade!

 

The national debt IMHO is not a Republican or Democrat issue...it is an issue of economic freedom which supercedes partisan politics.

 

Kevin,

(Yea,Still an Inliner)

[johnc]

The Debt is owed to the bankers who give our politicians freedom to borrow as much as they want for whatever political plan moves them.

 

No, its owed, primarily, to Treasury Bond and T-Bill holders - of which I'm one. Now, I agree that large holders of T-Bonds/Bills are institutions which wield influence in their ability to affect the T-Bond/Bill market via buying and selling. But, the market works in that the influence is wielded for the benefit of the bond/bill holders (the profit motive thing).

 

I do my best to time the market to my advantage. I also do my best to influence the market, but my influence is below any possible measurement threshhold.

[Pop N Wood]

I do my best to time the market to my advantage. I also do my best to influence the market, but my influence is below any possible measurement threshhold.

 

Really? Even with your ties to the Bin Laden oil fortunes?

[Kevin Shasteen]

.., No, its owed, primarily, to Treasury Bond and T-Bill holders

 

The bonds are nothing more than IOU's that bear interest. Anytime (almost always) the fed govt will have spent more than it has collected in taxes and therefore will have to borrow in order to make any payment to anyone for anything.

 

Congress has given away its authority to create "COINed Gold or Silver" and does not have the authority to "CREATE" paper notes for payment of debts....(read the constitution), the fed govt borrows it from the Federal Banks,

 

.., which according to Lewis -vs- US 680 F.2d 1239 (1982) the Federal Reserve is not Federal anymore than Federal Express and gets sued and sues in their own name on their own accord - they are given tax exempt statis for their services, yet are not federal at all..,

 

The fed reserve banks dont give the money away - it is loaned at interest to the federal govt: even though said banks received federal reserve notes from the Dept. of Bureau of Printing and Engraving (BOPE) for intrinsic value (printing costs only) and not face value. In other words their initial exp's for receiving a full sheet of $1 notes is the same price of a sheet of $1000 notes.

 

An exchange then takes place between the federal reserve and the federal govt. The federal reserve accepts T-Bills (as IOU's) from the federal govt and the federal reserve then gives the Federal Reserve Notes to the federal govt with the provision the federal govt promisses to pay said debt back w/interest...you and I are the gaurantors of this debt.

 

When you and I pay an income tax - the payment doesnt go to the federal govt, it goes to the bankers in light of the Federal Govt's debt owed to the bankers.

 

Loans will actually shrink the money supply due to the fact the interest in a loan is never created. Therefore, in order to pay a $100,000 loan at 10% interest ($110,000) back, the borrower must actually take $10,000 out of circulation merely to pay back the interest. This creates a void in the market. The only way to fulfill that void is for someone else to borrow that $10,000 back into society - which creates more debt which swells the debt. It is a never ending cycle where Bankruptsy is the only answer or the dismissing the debt...and we know a banker isnt going to do that!

 

T-Bills are nothing more than IOU's.

 

Kevin,

(Yea,Still an Inliner)

[Kevin Shasteen]

So, if the Federal Reserve is not Federal (US govt owned) and is nothing more than another Central Bank operating under a sneaky name "Federal" whereby most folks believe it is owned by the US Feds: then who does Allen Greenspan answer to?

 

Answer: the stockholders of the Federal Reserve are:

 

1) Rothschild Banks of London and Berlin

2) Lazard Brothers Bank of Paris

3) Israel Moses Sieff Banks of Italy

4) Warburg Bank of Hamburg and Amsterdam

5) Lehman Brothers Bank of New York

6) Kuhn Loeb Bank of New York

7) Chase Manhatten Bank of New York

8 Goldman Sachs Bank of New York

 

Small car, home, and whatever small loans are just as bad at removing paper notes from the money supply. Such as a $10,000 car loan at 10% interest whereby $1000 of interest is owed when that loans matures. This $1000 interest was never created - so in order to pay it the borrower must remove $1000 from the money supply.

 

Millions of people repeat this car loan scenario every year removing millions of dollars each year from the money supply and this only rep's auto's...accept that the auto mfg's are also hurting since 911 and have been making their car loans at 0%.

 

The many years of debt based borrowing chickens are now coming home to roost. It doesnt matter if Dem or Rep's are in control or who is President...the borrowing will continue.

 

Kevin,

(Yea,Still an Inliner)

[Mike kZ]

For those who think a "Flat Tax" is a great idea...I have a news flash for ya. WE ALREADY HAVE A FLAT TAX. It is called an excise tax. Everytime you buy something' date=' non food item, you pay an excise tax.

 

The govt created the income tax, (War Time Tax) which is a Federal Tax and only suppose to be triggered in time of war. This kind of tax can be utilized providing said tax was to be aportioned amongst the popultion of each state. If one state had a higher population then it owed more whereas if another state had a lesser population then it owed less than the state w/a higher population. Currently, the Income Tax is being applied as a direct tax which violates the constitution that states such as tax is suppose to be an indirect tax...but it is still being applied as a direct tax and being touted as [b']a voluntary tax - yea right![/b]

 

Kevin,

(Yea,Still an Inliner)

 

I agree, forget a flat tax, I say go with a national sales tax: http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-272.html (this takes a minute or so to load)

[wheelman]

Kevin,

You got the bit about the funds being removed from the money supply exactly wrong. The interest, if paid to the lending institution along with the principle actually expands the money supply and is the direct cause of inflation. Do some research on "fractional reserve banking" and you'll see how it works. Now if the loan is defaulted and not paid back along with the interest, then the money supply shrinks and it has a much larger impact than your example.

 

Another thing to remember Kevin is not to confuse the number of printed bills with the money supply. They are very different values. The number of printed bills represents a small fraction of the actual dollars in circulation as most is transfered through electronic means.

 

Wheelman

[JMortensen]

I agree, forget a flat tax, I say go with a national sales tax: http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-272.html

 

I didn't think I was going to like the sales tax, but it actually looks pretty good to me. A few issues I can see:

 

1. Poor people have to pay the tax up front and won't get it back until the end of the year.

 

2. People could conceivably make large purchases in Canada or Mexico and avoid taxation altogether. If I took a day trip to Canada and bought $25,000 worth of electronics as an example the sales tax system would rely on the honor system for me to declare it to the customs people at the border. I don't see an easy way to force people to state what they've purchased in another country. "No Mr. Customs Officer, I just thought I'd take the home entertainment system on a day trip to Canada..."

 

3. Doesn't affect state law, so only takes away 1/2 the accounting headache that the site states costs $150 billion per year.

 

4. CPAs aren't going to be very happy that nobody needs their services anymore. Maybe they can transition to investment analysts and help us invest some of the money we save.

 

5. That site says that the tax rate could be lowered as the government gets smaller. If the govt has more revenue, it's been my experience that govt only gets bigger.

 

6. International mail order is nearly impossible to regulate, and although getting more tax revenue would be a great way to give the govt an incentive to monitor what comes into the country (I'm thinking Homeland Security) it would still be an expensive proposition, but IMO worth it.

 

7. A large percentage of the tax revenue that could be had from immigrants who send most of their check to another country would be lost. You could argue that these people aren't usually the very high dollar earners now, but they very well could be if this law passed. Executives could start coming to the US and sending their earnings elsewhere.

 

If these issues were dealt with in the article, forgive me. I read it while working so I might have missed something.

[Kevin Shasteen]

Kevin' date='

You got the bit about the funds being removed from the money supply exactly wrong. The interest, if paid to the lending institution along with the principle actually expands the money supply and is the direct cause of inflation. Do some research on "fractional reserve banking" and you'll see how it works.., Wheelman[/quote']

 

Wheelman,

 

I have not confused anything. It is you who has confused what I said in my intial post. I never once brought the fractional banking's inflation issue into the picture. You are confusing inflation and debt...they are distinctively separate issues, but I was never speaking about inflation - I was making the point about debt and debt only.

 

The interest doesnt cause inflation....fractional reserve banking causes inflation.

 

I) Fractional Reserve Banking causes inflation which makes your monetary unit worth-less than it was before the bankers decided to create more money units than is actually on hand. While the National Debt increases everytime someone merely makes a loan. Both Debt and inflation are yokes that no one needs around their neck. Yes they are distinctively separate issues...and I was not confusing the two, you were.

 

Pretend if you will, you lived on an island. This island was perfect in every way. The people produced what they consumed - there was no paper money or banking as people simply bartered w/one another to get what they needed.

 

One day one of your neighbors talked you and the entire island into allowing said neighbor to create a bank that would utilize a debt based paper note medium of exchange. The only way you could get money is to borrow it from the bank at interest (No Fractional Reserve System...yet). The islanders agree that any debt that cant be paid will be considered the island's National Debt.

 

1) You are the first up to bat. You borrow $100 at 10% to be paid back in one year.

 

a) Borrowed Money..............$100

Interest charged................10%

c) In 1 year you owe.............$110

 

d) Before the year is up you buy $10 of corn seed to be planted

 

e) Total amount of money in your pocket...........$90.00

f) Total owed at the end of the year...................$110

 

g) Total amount you pay to the bank in 1 year....$90.00

h) Total amount you are in debt.......................<$20.00>

 

NOTE1: Inflation has remained the same because the banker has not created the monetary units on a 1:1 ratio...yet the debt remains none the less.

 

NOTE2: You CAN NOT pay that $20 back simply because $10 of it has not been created and you dont the other $10 because it was spent for corn seeds and there isn't any other money available on the island as of yet; meaning there is NO WAY you can pay it back. So simply by agreeing to the loan the island's national debt is now $10 and your personal debt is $20

 

NOTE3: Your only hope to rid yourself of your personal debt is if the individual you purchased your corn seeds from buys something from you for that same $10. Even if he does buy $10 of goods from you and you relinquish said $10 to the banker....you are still $10 in debt due to the fact that the interest has not been created at the time the loan was created. You just now added $10 to the island's National Debt and have now become enemy #1.

 

2) Let us say the farmer you bought $10 of corn seed from decides to get that same $100 loan at 10% to be paid back in full in one year.

 

a) Borrowed Money................$100

Interest Charged.................10%

c) In 1 year he owes...............$110

 

d) he buys $10 goods from a pottery store

 

e) total remaining from the bank loat...............$90.00

f) total in pocket cash from his corn seed crop..$10.00

g) total pocket cash........................................$100

 

g) total owed to the bank in one year..................$110

h) total amount paid to the bank in 1 year...........$100

 

i) amount he is unable to pay...........................<$10.00>

 

j) Islands National Debt now jumps up another ..<$10.00>

 

k) total Island National Debt..............................<$20.00>

 

NOTE1: The inflation remains nill simply because the banker has remained on a 1:1 money creation ratio...yet the debt still increases none the less.

 

Wheelman...the island has 1million people on it. The island has already suffered a $20 national debt from the interest of two loans that can never be paid back. Imagine what happens when the entire 1million population decides to get the same $100 loan...the debt keeps getting bigger and bigger. "The actual money supply shrinks simply because the money was never created to pay said interest...while the debt increases.

 

Eventually the debt gets to the point the islanders admit they can never pay it back...so they go to the wiley coyote banker who smiles his best smile (licking his chops) while the islanders ask what can they do to get rid of the debt. The banker advises he will not dismiss the debt and that he will foreclose on their property they put up as collateral..to which the banker then owns the island. The poor stupid little islanders - they have lost their island...now what do they do - where do they go? The bankers dont care - they got their new island get away.

 

We haven't even created a Fractional Banking System for our island yet nor taxation...as taxation also pulls money out of the money supply - so the actual debt is what we are talking about here...not inflation. I have not confused any issue.

 

I agree whole heartedly that inflation is as serious an issue as a debt based money system because it causes the actual value of said note to fluctuate.

 

In the olden days where weights were used to weigh your gold/silver for a purchase...the crooks would use heavier weights to give your gold/silver the appearance of being worth-less...then the crooks would use lighter weights when selling their gold/silver to give the appearance their gold/silver was worth-more. This usage of two separate weights was called USERY...and A VERY SERIOUS CRIME if you were caught.

 

BTW: there is no difference from a paper note (debt) and an electronic money unit - they both enter the money supply because at one point someone borrowed it...which increases the debt.

 

Kevin,

(Yea,Still an Inliner)

[Guest freedomfighter]

Holy crap, Kevin, you have waaaay to much time on your hands... LOL!

 

It's really hard for me to talk about this subject... because, I for one, HATE most everything about paying taxes. When you work really hard, and sometimes have to give as mush as HALF of what I earned to the government... it makes me want to...

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for doing my part... and I know this great country needs revenue to run... but you all know that there is billions of dollars wasted on improper conduct and spending. If I could trust that those who took MY money were going to do the right thing even 98% of the time... I would probably be ok. But we all know it's far from that.

 

My only reason for jumping in on the subject was to add my 50 cents... since it sounded like an effort was being made to slam an administration that is finally going in the right direction. Remember that there is alot to be fixed... and like a mighty ship... it will take a long time to turn this mutha' around.

 

Please allow me to share a few points:

 

Kerry and the left Claim: The United States is running a record $124 billion trade deficit with China.

The Truth: The trade deficit is declining as a result of soaring U.S. exports. The trade gap with China fell nearly 28 percent in February as imports from that country slipped to $11.3 billion, the lowest level in nearly a year, and exports to China rose 17 percent to $3.0 billion. (“Trade Gap Shrinks as Imports, Exports Hit Record,†Reuters, 4/14/2004)

Between 2000 and 2003, U.S. exports to China grew 76 percent. (U.S.T.R. Trade Facts, America’s Trade with China, April 21, 2004)

U.S. Exports to China increased significantly last year. In 2003 alone, the United States exported nearly $5 billion in agricultural goods to China – an increase of more than 140 percent over 2002. (Office of United States Trade Representative, “America’s Trade with China,†Fact Sheet, 4/21/2004)

 

Kerry and the left Claim: Families are finding it harder to make ends meet because they are struggling to keep up with mounting debt.

 

The Truth: Low interest rates are allowing Americans to purchase a home, invest in education, and buy their first car. Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan this week pointed out that the increase in household debt reflects the increase in homeownership. (Remarks by Alan Greenspan, U.S. Senate Committee On Banking, Housing And Urban Affairs, 6/15/04)

 

Greenspan: Debt Rising Because Of New Mortgages And New Homeowners. "So I'm not actually concerned at this point that we are looking at a really serious consumer debt problem, especially when one of the major factors in the growth of mortgage debt -- in fact, 10 percent of the level of mortgage debt -- occurs as a consequence of the fairly significant increase in the ratio of households who are homeowners." (Remarks by Alan Greenspan, U.S. Senate Committee On Banking, Housing And Urban Affairs, 6/15/04)

 

Greenspan: Because Of Increased Homeownership, Rising Ratio Of Debt To Income "Is Not Evidence Of Deterioration In Household Finances." "And as a consequence of that, what you have is a very significant part of the population which have gone from renter to homeowner and in the process have statistically increased the amount of household debt -- mortgage debt in this case -- very substantially. But I would never argue that the renters by moving, by becoming homeowners, had their financial situation significantly deteriorated. So part of this ratio of debt to income is not evidence of deterioration in household finances." (Remarks by Alan Greenspan, U.S. Senate Committee On Banking, Housing And Urban Affairs, 6/15/04)

 

Greenspan: Economy Not Near Worrisome Debt To Income Ratio. "It is the case, however, that if we continue to get very significant increases in the ratio of household debt to income, that the debt service charges, obviously, will be going up. And there is a conceivable point out there which I would consider worrisome. I just don't think that we are anywhere near there yet. And I doubt if we will." (Remarks by Alan Greenspan, U.S. Senate Committee On Banking, Housing And Urban Affairs, 6/15/04)

 

Greenspan: Delinquencies and Defaults Are Not Concerning. "The amount of income that is now moving into consumer markets has become an ever-important factor in consumption. And even though it is the case that credit card debt has moved up significantly, it's not large enough to be a serious concern. And indeed the delinquencies and the defaults are not particularly large relative to what one ordinarily expects in that type of business. And indeed delinquencies generally have been exceptionally low across the board in the consumer area, especially, for example, in mortgage and in home equity loans." (Remarks by Alan Greenspan, U.S. Senate Committee On Banking, Housing And Urban Affairs, 6/15/04)

 

Wall Street Journal Editorial: Good Jobs At Good Wages.  "Several months of growth have blown away most of the Chicken Little stories about a 'jobless recovery,' but one doubt has lingered. Many Americans believe that service-sector 'offshoring' means that the number of high-paying jobs is flat, while companies are creating more menial positions.  Well, even that myth has now been shattered. A new paper from the Chicago Federal Reserve Bank analyzes government employment numbers and finds that growth in jobs paying more than the mean now outstrips the creation of jobs on the bottom end of the bell curve. Moreover, the timing of this shift is in line with the pattern of past economic expansions. … Yet using either method, the Fed economists found that the trend line is clear: The U.S. employment market is now in positive territory, creating more higher paying jobs."  (Editorial, "Good Jobs At Good Wages," The Wall Street Journal, 9/16/04)

 

Record Household Wealth.  "U.S. household wealth swelled to a new record in the second quarter of 2004, while borrowing outside the financial sector grew at a slower pace, the Federal Reserve said on Thursday. In its quarterly 'Flow of Funds' report, the Fed said household balance sheets increased 1.4 percent to $45.907 trillion in the second quarter, compared with an upwardly revised $45.270 trillion in the first quarter of this year."  ("US Household Wealth Swells To Record In 2nd Qtr--Fed," Reuters, 9/16/04)

 

Unemployment Rates Lower In 45 States.  "Over the year, unemployment rates declined in all four regions and in 45 states.  The national unemployment rate, 5.4 percent in August, was little changed from July."  ("Regional And State Employment And Unemployment: August 2004," Press Release, Bureau Of Labor Statistics, 9/17/04)

 

CBO Projection Finds Labor Force Participation Will Decline Unless The President's Tax Cuts Are Made Permanent.  When the President’s tax cuts expire, marginal income tax rates will rise, reducing workers after-tax income and thus discouraging workers from participating in the labor force, according to a CBO projection.  Average marginal tax rates are projected to rise to 25.1 percent by 2010 as a result of real bracket creep and increased exposure to the AMT. It jumps to 27.3 percent with the expiration of President’s tax cuts after 2010, and continues to drift upward by about 0.3 percentage points per year.  If the President’s tax cuts are not made permanent, the labor force participation rate in 2014 falls to 65.6 percent and the labor force projection is reduced by more than 1 million relative to its unadjusted level, to 162.2 million.  ("CBO's Projection of the Labor Force," http://www.cbo.gov, 9/04)

 

Housing Starts Rise More Than Expected.  "U.S. housing starts unexpectedly rose for a second month, helped by lower mortgage rates that continued to attract buyers, a government report showed. Builders broke ground on 2.00 million homes at an annual rate last month, up 0.6 percent from a revised 1.988 million in July, the Commerce Department said in a Washington. Construction permits, a sign of future activity, fell 5.5 percent to a 1.952 million pace.  Housing starts are on track to surpass last year's record as mortgage rates near all-time lows spur buying."  ("U.S. Aug. Housing Starts Rise 0.6% To 2.000 Million Annual Rate," Bloomberg, 9/21/04)

 

States Reaping Benefit Of Stronger Economy.  "State tax revenues continued to rebound in the second quarter of 2004, increasing by 11.3 percent over the same period last year, according to the latest issue of State Revenue Report released Sept. 16 by the Nelson A. Rockefeller Institute of Government.  The report said tax revenues would have increased by 9.2 percent without the effects of legislated tax increases. ... 'States have begun to reap the benefits of the stronger economy as their revenues are now growing at rates that rival pre-recession levels,' the report said.  'While state tax collections continue to be bolstered by legislated tax increases, state tax revenue now shows significant growth even when these are factored out.'  According to the report, personal income tax revenues increased by 15.6 percent in the second quarter, while sales tax revenues increased by 7.1 percent, and corporate income tax revenues increased by 13.6 percent."  ("Report Says State Tax Revenues Grew By 11.3 Percent In Second Quarter 2004," Daily Report For Executives, 9/20/04)

 

Employment Is Improving.  "On the positive side, last week's employment related news was encouraging on a number of fronts, most important of which was unemployment claims remaining below 340,000 (despite the hurricanes?).  In addition, ISI's temp employment cost survey, Manpower Inc's employment survey, NFIB's small business hiring plans survey, the NY mfg employment index, the Phil Fed mfg employment index, and U of Mich's consumer unemployment expectations survey all suggested employment is improving."  ("Summary," ISI Group, 9/20/04)

 

The Middle Class Tax Relief

 

If the middle class tax relief isn't extended, next year the child tax credit will drop from $1,000 per child to just $700, marriage penalty relief will be reduced, and the low 10% tax bracket will shrink so more income is taxed at a higher rate.  It will hurt:

 

* 94 million taxpayers will suffer an average tax hike of over $500 per year.

* Taxes will increase on 38 million families with children, 8 million single mothers, and 11 million senior citizens.

* A family of four with $40,000 in income will have to pay over $900 more in taxes each year.  ("Millions of Individuals and Families are Benefiting from Tax Relief Plan," U.S. Treasury Department, 4/9/04)

 

I'm sorry for being so long... I have tons of this stuff scattered through a bunch of e-mails that I have received from my CPA and a bunch of business associates. It took me a while to gather this stuff together... and I was trying to be as brief as possible, without loosing the point:

I know there is a lot of work to do... I know that much of the system is screwed up... I'm just glad that we know it and have a President in office that is genuinely trying to do something about it!

[Kevin Shasteen]

.., My only reason for jumping in on the subject was to add my 50 cents... since it sounded like an effort was being made to slam an administration that is finally going in the right direction..,

 

This is the point I'm trying to make...it is not a Democratic issue nor is it a Republican issue....IT IS AN ECONOMICAL DEBT ISSUE.

 

If people could only get past this fake left/right mindset then they might actually be able to see things for what they really are. Dont argue that the glass is half full or that the glass is half empty...instead - simply admit that the water is at the half way mark.

 

Go back to page1 of this thread and look at SuperDave's post where he listed a few graphs. Both Dems/Repubs are irresponsible...look at SuperDave's graphs! Debt will only continue to climb once it surpasses the point of no return - which we have passed 20 years ago.

 

BTW Freedomfighter, the trade difference w/China is around the 60billion mark if memory serves me correctly with no intention of getting any smaller.

 

Anyone who doesnt have enough time on their hands to understand an economical fact that, "as inflation and debt rises - you will have to work twice as hard to make twice as little" doesnt see the bigger picture and is living in a glass house.

 

Kevin,

(Yea,Still an Inliner)

[Pop N Wood]

Hey Kevin, here is a hypothetical for you. Let's introduce the concept of a discount rate. Say all the islanders pool their money in the bank, and for every $10 in the bank they can loan out $100 (a 10% discount rate).

 

Then, lets say the islander borrows the $100, but sells his corn for $150. There is now excess funds available to support this.

 

Doesn’t the island wealth now increase?

[JMortensen]

When you and I pay an income tax - the payment doesnt go to the federal govt, it goes to the bankers in light of the Federal Govt's debt owed to the bankers.

 

This is the insideousness of a debt based economy.

 

The Debt is owed to the bankers who give our politicians freedom to borrow as much as they want for whatever political plan moves them. The bankers get rich, the politicians get rich - meanwhile making its citizens gaurantors of paying said debt back....what a scam.

 

The national debt IMHO is not a Republican or Democrat issue...it is an issue of economic freedom which supercedes partisan politics.

 

Answer: the stockholders of the Federal Reserve are:

 

1) Rothschild Banks of London and Berlin

2) Lazard Brothers Bank of Paris

3) Israel Moses Sieff Banks of Italy

4) Warburg Bank of Hamburg and Amsterdam

5) Lehman Brothers Bank of New York

6) Kuhn Loeb Bank of New York

7) Chase Manhatten Bank of New York

8 Goldman Sachs Bank of New York

 

So are you going to tell everyone who the "bankers" are Kevin? A close look at his post of the bankers' names should tell anyone who they are. What does your conspiracy theory say that we should "do" about them Kevin?

 

How much of your conspiracy theory do you believe, and how far towards the ugly and evil end of that theory do you go?

[Guest freedomfighter]

..' date=' My only reason for jumping in on the subject was to add my 50 cents... since it sounded like an effort was being made to slam an administration that is finally going in the right direction.., [/quote']

 

This is the point I'm trying to make...it is not a Democratic issue nor is it a Republican issue....IT IS AN ECONOMICAL DEBT ISSUE.

 

If people could only get past this fake left/right mindset then they might actually be able to see things for what they really are. Dont argue that the glass is half full or that the glass is half empty...instead - simply admit that the water is at the half way mark.

 

Go back to page1 of this thread and look at SuperDave's post where he listed a few graphs. Both Dems/Repubs are irresponsible...look at SuperDave's graphs! Debt will only continue to climb once it surpasses the point of no return - which we have passed 20 years ago.

 

BTW Freedomfighter, the trade difference w/China is around the 60billion mark if memory serves me correctly with no intention of getting any smaller.

 

Anyone who doesnt have enough time on their hands to understand an economical fact that, "as inflation and debt rises - you will have to work twice as hard to make twice as little" doesnt see the bigger picture and is living in a glass house.

 

Kevin,

(Yea,Still an Inliner)

 

Hey Kevin,

 

1. Being neither, myself, I agree completely. It just so happens that in the middle of an extremely hot political season that most all info I've seen tends to come off as one side or the other. The fact remains that it's all of our problem. I don't think we've even come close to the half way mark, but progress is being made... I think the facts prove that we are going in the right direction. As for the fake midset... there is nothing fake about the different ways that either side deals with this issue. If your vote is going to mean anything at all, you have to come down on one side or the other.

 

2. As for Super's graphs... I agree the problem is from both sides, as I've said before. But, I have seen similar graphs that show adjusted figures that look very different. They place the size of this administration deficit situation in 17th or 18th place, can't remember exactly which. I'll find the facts Im refering to.

 

3. You'll have to take up the trade figures with Reuters.

 

4. As for the "to much time" comment... dude, relax... I was just kidding.

[Kevin Shasteen]

.., As for the "to much time" comment... dude, relax... I was just kidding.

 

FF,

 

I was just kidding you back - so chill I'm thickskinned and dont get offended...so dont think that I was offended - I' m not.

 

Regarding the vote not counting...I was referencing debt not health care like issues. When debt is concerned it does not matter who is in office. The graphs, regardless of whose graph you look at, will indicate that JUST THE INTEREST is beginning to be unbearable and unpayable.

 

Each year the interest grows astronaumically. There is not enough money in the world to pay the debt, and currently - in the last few years, we can not even keep tabs on interest that is owed. It is growing like some huge smog cloud lingering over all of America.

 

If you (you meaning anyone) can grasp the fact that as interest and debt rises - you (again you meaning any of us) will have to work that much harder simply to bring home that much less...it is a very important issue and not one that we should merely look the other way on.

 

Kevin,

(Yea,Still an Inliner)

[Guest freedomfighter]

No kidding... I'll never forget the day (long ago) someone told me I had to work several months into the year just to pay my taxes...

I could hardly believe it then, and I still have a hard time swallowing that bitter pill now. Death and Taxes... uhg.

 

Could you imagine if we all ran our business the way the government has run "there's" over the last several decades?! I doubt that there would be any world economy at all.