Guest Anonymous Posted November 4, 2000 Share Posted November 4, 2000 OK...this is getting a bit wild, but I'm trying to figure out all my different options before finalizing this thing. Aside from transmission things and structural modifications, I'm wondering what all it will take to put a Twin Turbo ZZ4 together. The parts that I know would go into it include Crower Rods, JE forged pistons, and EFI upgrade. The turbos I'm looking at are the Turbonetics 68-1 model from the T60 series with the ceramic ball bearing option, the "Q" trim upgrade, and the ceramic heat coating. The system would include an enormous intercooler. Other little things included will be electronic boost control and a compressor bypass option. I was looking at an NA ZZ430...but this seems like a bit more powerful rig and should sit right where I was thinking price wise. Here are the questions I have about this: 1) Can the ZZ4 with those upgrades take the punishment? No good getting all this only to have it go BOOM!... 2) How much boost and (with proper intercooling) hp can I expect from such an engine? How many cars are out there that can compete? 3) On a properly set up (structurally) car, what class would this put me in as far as drag racing? 4) Does this look like an engine I can get for under $12000? That's my engine budget limit...I'm thinking I may have to tone down the turbos to stay within it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted November 4, 2000 Share Posted November 4, 2000 Another question is will you have the room underhood for the twind turbos and all the plumbing... Thats a lot to ask of a small area... Mike ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Scott Posted November 5, 2000 Share Posted November 5, 2000 I had some similar questions as well, but looking toward supercharging. As I understand the later ZZ4s bottom end was good for up to 500 hp, says Chevy. The pistons, of course, aren't up to the task of pressurized hp. Also since the whole assembly is balanced to the high 10:1 comp. hypereutetic pistons and powdered forged connecting rods, you need to basically start over with the recip. assem. The zz4 is a fantastic powerplant,naturally aspirated, but for supercharging I think you have to start from square one with a bare block and low comp. forged pistons. The $ spent on the zz4 would be wasted since it is a matched assembly. All you would be using is the block and crank. Same with the ZZ430. Don'f forget the turbo profiled cam. For a serious turbo motor I'd start with the bowtie block and steel crank. 500 hp would barely be breathing for a turbo V8. The features on the 4" bore bowtie are impressive Expensive, but if you are looking for bullit proof...Read up in the 2000 perf. parts catalog. Ask Sallee Chev for their price. Always quoted me lower than the other Chev dealers JS [This message has been edited by John Scott (edited November 04, 2000).] [This message has been edited by John Scott (edited November 05, 2000).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 5, 2000 Share Posted November 5, 2000 OK...I'm beginning to see that a project like this simply can't be built by taking a premade engine like the ZZ4 and simply modifying it. I know I'll be using crower rods and JE pistons, but I need some help picking out which fuel injection system will hold up to the task. I also need some ideas on what head to use and what type of things to look for in the valvetrain. Before I even think of what to do about the turbos, I need to make sure I have a bullet-proof block. Remember that there's only $12K for this engine, so I can't get into extensive custom machining. My dad and inlaws are experienced with building engines, but we are at a lack of knowledge on what specific parts to use. If anyone can help, I'll take a look at all the suggestions. I'll put another post up when I decide which pieces to use and actually order all the parts for the engine. Thanks for the help. --Also...what intake manifold? ehhh...I know I'm going to have to eventually go to a current engine builder and talk things over, but I certainly want some clear ideas on what things I'm expecting and ideas on things I'd like included. Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted November 5, 2000 Share Posted November 5, 2000 One idea: www.sdsefi.com Its fairly cheap (~$1000US) though you'll have to come up with an intake and throttle body setup. As for the rest, I'm not much help when it comes to chevy engine building. ------------------ "Gimme Fuel, Gimme Fire, Gimme that which I desire" -Metallica Drax240z 1972 240z - L28TURBO transplant on the way! http://members.xoom.com/r_lewis/datsun.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy 77zt Posted November 5, 2000 Share Posted November 5, 2000 for 12 large if you did a lot of your own work you could get 800 hp.i would start with a used non bored yet 4 bolt truck block.then buy your crank rods & pistons.a block that has been used is heat seasoned .get some good heads and roller valve train.for intake i would use a edelbrock victor jr with injector bosses welded in and a 4 barrel air door from a place like kinsler injection.for the electronics i would use the new fel-pro injection system with wide band 5 wire o2 sensor.if you got some shorty headers and bolted them on backwards you could feed the turbos.2 turbos would mean small turbos - but no lag.call turbonetics.you would need a killer trans for this.automatics are the best with turbos because they stay spooled up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted November 6, 2000 Share Posted November 6, 2000 Whew - build the bottom end STRONG. If you want serious power the ZZ4 won't cut it. This thing will make torque like you wouldn't believe. Pick up a book on turbos, there's at least one out there that talks about a turbo V8 that self destructed at only like 3K RPM. It made so much torque it trashed everything. If you're really serious, give Duttweiler a call. Ken has built many motors like this and knows th epitfalls - he's also a great guy if you get hold of him. Honestly, I don't think your $12K budget will make it. I've thought some about turbos on my motor down the road. I've already run a twin turbo Ford 302 in another car and done right there NO lag. However it's complex and expensive. Look the marine arena to see if they've got things like turbo manifolds that might work. When it's all priced out you may be shocked at the cost. After you've gotten over the shock think about this - what do you want to do with the car? 800HP or so is a bear to drive on anything but the track. The Datsun Z is a short wheelbase car and that much power will be a hand full on the track. You're going to have to literally build the car around a powerplant making that kind of power - it'll rip a regular Z apart I'd think. The motor will be just the first step in the drivetrain - the rest will be big bux too. I'd consider scaling back some - save some money too. A ZZ4 does have 10:1 compression but if you built an intercooled supercharger system, like what ATI sells, you COULD run boost on a ZZ4. The big worry would be the pistons. With all that you mentioned replacing before you'd probably be better off with a scratch built motor anyway. Build a nice 9:1 350 or 383 and toss a blower on it. My 383 cost about $4700, a blower would be a bit over $3K, then the EFI. Oops, there's your $12K. SuperChevy recently supercharged a 383 EFI motor - something like 600HP was the result. This motor on premium gas could probably be driven anywhere and went into a street car. There's at least one blown 383 running around here in a stock late model Camaro - he's apparently cleaning house on everything that pulls up next to him! Unless you're out to build a strict race car I think you'd be happier scaling back some. Just my .02! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 6, 2000 Share Posted November 6, 2000 Has anyone else heard of problems with hypereutectic pistons when used in blower motors? I was reading somewhere that there have been some piston failures using the hyper pistons. I know the key on blower motors is avoid detonation, but isn't forged really the way to go? Any opinions, or anyone else heard that? Lone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 6, 2000 Share Posted November 6, 2000 I see this is going to certainly turn into a mess if I continue working the way I have been. Living in Houston, it takes a lot to take out the competition, so I was aiming for a lot. I think I've made up my mind more on a toned down engine that should keep me pretty happy all the same. I'm looking at the ZZ4 with the fast burn heads and hot cam...basically a ZZ430. I'm looking around to see what the other cars on the road are running and I think this engine should have me in the 11s if I can find traction. Not as much as what I could be getting, but I'll have some money left over (Yay!) and 11s are darned fast on the street anyway, so I guess I shouldn't complain. Also, this setup will be much nicer to my tranny, ujoints and RE. Save me a couple headaches in the long run. If I decide I want to have that extra edge, I might consider a 200shot NOS or something, but overall I think the 430 NA hp this engine puts out are a much better $/value ratio than anything I was looking at above it. Thanks esp to BLKMGK for the help here. BLKMGK: Do you know of anything I may want to consider doing in a milder way than adding boost to the ZZ430? I want to get this right from the beginning. The 700R4 I'm looking at if I go this path takes 600 hp. Is there any way to hit this other than nitrous? If so...that'd be great cause NOS bottles are a bother to fill. If I could manage 550-600 hp without nitrous, I don't think I'll be left with any room to complain. If things don't work out, I know that the ZZ430 would be a lot of fun. Any suggestions on where I might want to go from here? Hehe...thanks for getting my head screwed back on the right way guys...turbos sound so darn good...but a V8 does too, and certainly doesn't need to play those games to keep up with the crowd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted November 6, 2000 Share Posted November 6, 2000 Mikelly has somewhere between 500-550 flywheel horsepower, according to Desktop Dyno, his builder, the performance of the care, etc. Just my opinion, but I think you really ought to consider building an engine from the ground up or going with a builder's crate motor. It doesn't have to be expensive, but you get to spec stuff like forged pistons, H-beam rods, steel crank, splayed 4-bolt mains, the right roller cam, etc. to get that 550 hp from a normally aspirated, pump gas motor. If you ever do juice a motor like that, you could do it knowing that it'd hold up, not have to worry about hyper cast pistons, etc., that the ZZ4, ZZ430, have. Great engines, but if you want more power, I'd upgrade the bottom end now to handle it. Built SBC, done right, are not that expensive to build. $5000 should set you up pretty good. If you really wanted more power, you could add a blower (ATI, whipple, etc.) later to get it. I've been real impressed with what I've read about several of the crate motor companies. Beck Racing engines has a 550? hp 383 they sell that looks sweet. ------------------ Pete Paraska - 73 540Z - Marathon Z Project - pparaska@home.com">pparaska@home.com - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyind Posted November 11, 2000 Share Posted November 11, 2000 Has anyone looked at the ProCharger gear-driven centrifugal superchargers that feature self-lubrication. The SC models share many of the design elements which deliver the record-setting durability and performance of ProCharger competition superchargers, and are also quiet and street legal. The P-1SC ProCharger supports up to 1200 cfm and 825 horsepower. It looks like it could replace my R4 AC compressor plus you can underdrive it and keep your 10:1+ pistons with no lag time. Look at them and let me know what you guys think about it... http://www.procharger.com ------------------ Z U V8ter http://cyind.com Rspencer@satx.rr.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted November 12, 2000 Share Posted November 12, 2000 Sorry I haven't responded sooner guys. My Z is STILL in paintshop jail and has been for something like 7 weeks for 1 weeks worth of work. It's a sore subject at this point. In the meantime I picked up a 93 RX7 in awesome condition. It's making low boost on the primary turbo, to be fixed next week, but it flat out flies. So, I've been researching RX7s and having fun away from the computer Anyway, I've seen MANY of the new ProCharger units. Despite the claims they ARE still noisy - but not as bad as my P1200. Not poking holes inthe oil pan is nice BUT you have to change the fluid every X miles and you MUST use their lubricant - it's got tattle-tale dye in it too so don't skip it. All in all it's a NICE blower! As for 600HP - wow that's alot. For that much power I'd run a blower and I'd run forged pistons. Sure, you can do it without a blower but the motor will have to be MUCH hairier and that's no fun to drive. Talk to an experienced BLOWER shop and see what they reccomend. For that matter call up ATI and talk to them - they'll know what works. As for th eZZ430 - forget it. Hard as heck to find and th eshops making them from parts want too much. IF you go with a crate motor go with the 385horse motor that GM is now selling. It's got the ZZ4 shortblock and the nicer heads - only difference I'm aware of between this and the ZZ430 is the nasty cam. It has hyper pistons though so beware. Some quick infor on pistns as I understand it and have observed. Cast - frail but can be made to work. Hyper - strong, doesn't expand much which is why the OEMs are using them, but is brittle. Get detonation and you can break the ring lands apart! Even just too much power can trash them but detonation is the real enemy. Hypers have more silicon in the forging and this can actually come to the piston surface as bubbles under extreme conditions - happened to Turbo Magazine, poor piston had acne! Forged - tough as nails, can stand some detonation but it's never a good idea, expands more than Hypers. Cost is higher for GOOD ones - watch the weight! Hope that helps some. Honestly I'm not sure you'll really need 600hp but with say a 9:1 compression and a blower making say 10lbs of intercooled boost you'd be pretty close IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Speaker Posted November 29, 2000 Share Posted November 29, 2000 dude, personally, i'd go with a single turbo setup... there's no way you'll get any traction with two turbos of that size... thats a HELLUVA lot of power... what i'd do is figure out a way to get a T-78 or T-88 single turbo on there... spool up is not a problem with a V8... there's so much damn exhaust flow the turbos will spool almost instantly... as for building the bottom end; drop the compression A LOT... get a DAMN strong bottom end... the word with turbos is airflow and fuel supply... you're going to need some pretty big injectors for those turbos (and i'd invest in a good fuel tuning system) if you're planning to run a good bit of boost; you're going to have to make sure NOTHING will go wrong... because detonation when running big boost on big turbos... that causes a big BOOM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Frank280z Posted November 30, 2000 Share Posted November 30, 2000 LINGENFELTER.......In their catalog. They have a 420cid. 615bhp. 560 ft/lbs. That should be enough power for you. Although it will set you back about 19K. yikes..... www.lingenfelter.com ------------------ Build it. Drive it. Improve it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pauli Posted November 30, 2000 Share Posted November 30, 2000 for that much, i'd tend to go for a 528hemi and a supercharger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted December 1, 2000 Share Posted December 1, 2000 Compression doesn't need to be dropped more than about to 9:1 unless you're trying to make 1000HP. face it folks - we can dreamwheel a ton of HP but look at the chassis we're using! Why do all that work and simply break things or never hook up? I DID run twin turbos, small T25s as a matter of fact and there IS a reason for having two of them, it can and will lag otherwise. It also makes exhaust plumbing easier to run duals. With two smallish turbos I had near instant boost and it made decent power for a stock bottom end. Really, for the kinds of power most of us are looking for a belt driven supercharger will work fine. Figure an easy 550 to 600HP without trying. Heck my mild 383 should make 425 on pump gas and I'd bet that a blower would get it to 600 pretty easy for alot less than turbos will cost. Been there, done that, loved it, but.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Speaker Posted December 1, 2000 Share Posted December 1, 2000 yes T25s are awsome turbos; i have two of them on my 300zx TT right now (its stock) but he's talking about a 68-1... thats freaking huge... if i'm reading it right... two of my friends have T04E turbos with 60-1 compressor wheels... the inlets on these turbos is 4"... now explain TWO of them... that; if built correctly, somehow someway, and running a decent amount of boost; would make well over 700hp... i'm tempted to claim 1000hp; but i dunno how much boost you can run with two turbos of that size... everyone has their opinions on superchargers vs turbos... but i'd prefer a turbo much more on the fly tunability... if i wanna run race gas; i just up the boost afterwards.... with a supercharger you have to change the pullies... its a lot harder than turning a boost control knob ------------------ ------------------------ looking at a 240Z V8 conversion project Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted December 2, 2000 Share Posted December 2, 2000 For a 350cube motor or better I wouldn't run the T25s. They were actually marginal for my motor and should've been T28s to really work best (shrug). I won't argue that turbos are easier to turn up and down - that's true. Unfortunatly by the time you've bought and built your way into that setup I've already been driving my car and have cash leftover. For the HP ranges we're generally looking at with these street cars I just don't see the sense in spending that much cash. Really, what HP are we shooting for? I'm going to have around 400-450 or so on pump gas. With a blower I'd imagine an easy 600. Would I even be able to put that down? What about the rear axles? Car only weighs about 2500lbs or so right? To each his own but I'd like my critter to be simple, at least to start with. I'm trying not to bite off more than I can chew and finish this project so I can drive it. (shrug) A turbo introduces all sorts of fun things like heat, been there done that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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