Safety equipment too heavy or $$$ ???

[ZR8ED]

I've been hanging out with a pretty large core of muscle cars/street racers lately.

 

I'm quite shocked at the lack of safety equipment being used by people upgrading the performance of their vehicles.

 

I mean I talked about upgrades to suspensions/brakes, belts, cages etc.. only a handful of guys even up graded their brakes from 4 wheel drums to front discs!!!!!!!!!!!

 

The import guys were only marginally better with upgraded 4/5 point harnesses, and the odd guy with bigger brakes.

 

What is it with safety. yea it adds weight, and cost to a car, but come on I really don't want to die in my car. Do you?

 

There were some wicked fast cars there with next to nothing else done to them besides driveline..9-10sec cars.!!!

I was not the fastest car their by a long shot. But I'd rather be in my car than any car there if I was in a crash.

 

I've been hearing guys stipping their cars down to save weight, but hey don't go too far fellas.. Lemans cars are light, but they could be much lighter and faster without all that safety gear.

 

Not trying to sound preachy guys. I drive my car to its limits too.. but I also take safety seriously. Workplace safety is a big focus at work and it has rubbed off on me over the years.

 

I'd hate to hear of anyone here killing themselves in an unsafe Z.

 

oh and do it right to. improperly installed safety equipment may be even more dangerous..(false sense of security.)

 

Make sure you all save some $$ for some brakes, suspension/tires, seatbelts, etc, for when you drop your 300++++ hp driveline in.

 

Ok ok I'll get down off my soapbox.

 

I don't mean to offend anyone.. Just don't want to see any hurt themselves out there.

 

[John Scott]

First I'll state the best safety equipment is going to be common sense. Brakes, yes. Still not sure on the rollcage idea. Let's see, doors paper thin, rest of the car built like a beer can. Seems like a good idea, but I recall some posts stating a roll cage, unless designed by NASA was going cause more bodily harm than good, on the street. I probaly won't be wearing my helmet on the street. My old stock 72 body still seems pretty ridgid, jacking up the front left tire, raise the front right and drivers side left rear, three off the ground, and still easily open the doors. I have a good concrete trade coming for some welding work, but need a relaible plan for cage. I'm more concerned with a design to saving my bones than setting records at the autoX.

John

[BLKMGK]

I covered my cage in SFI approved padding. It won't beat a helmet but it sure beats smacking bare tubing! One thing I wish I'd done though - metal plate welded to the trans tunnel to protect against a flywheel letting go. I DO have an SFI flywheel though!

[660Z]

first let me say i agree 100% on saftey

but as far as the muscle car guys. i think it`s a comfort issue and not really a saving weight one. with the "muscle car" we grew up with and have driven.these cars have been around us for a long time.we know how they will act in any given situation (at least we think we do)we feel safe with the body surronding us becausle it`s been proven to us time and time again through out the years.everyone has had an acceident in a 60-70`s car,probabley moms car when you were a teenager.a brake or suspention upgrade other than factory seems like a waste of money or it`s for someone that wants bragging rights.becaulse these cars came with v8 high horse motors.

 

now the comparison.

 

did you grow up with z cars?....i didn`t im 32 and just started driving them last yr.do you honestly know what that car will do in a accident?how it will behave to avoid one?...i don`t...let`s face it we drive around in small, compact,very light,very fast even with a stock 2.4 let alone 300+hp beercans.now do you honestly and completly feel safe in one?(remember it`s compact in there)...i don`t...but do you like to drive it?....hell yes i do!!!...that`s why we spend a good amount of money on safety so we can have the comfort level were accustom to.

 

now keep in mind this is just my take on it.since ive been bitten by the z bug i haven`t driven my nova in almost a yr......mark

[pparaska]

Mark, well said. I grew up on 60s and 70s American cars and felt unwittingly safe due to the size of them.

 

I'll never forget my boss (and girlfriend's father) in highschool calling my 240Z (yes, I've had it over 20 years!) a "rolling coffin". He looked at the size, then sat in it and just barely fit (he is huge - not fat- just really tall and big).

 

Driving my Z again, I'm reminded of just how close that thin door is. I really feel kind of unprotected driving it - kind of like riding a motorcycle. But that's a chance I'm going to take. I have a roll bar but felt the door bars were too much hassle for a street car that's so narrow and has so little lateral room for a door bar - I mean unless you cut the door interior out, the bar is VERY close to your ribs/side. Plus I didn't (nor would my wife) want to be climbing over them. I guess I'll just take my chances and it'll probably make me drive it a bit more sanely knowing how un-protective it is in a crash compared to most other cars.

[Guest gprix1]

I have to agree that safety is very important but with regards to brakes there seems to be a lot of emphasis on brake "upgrades" because of increased power. Remember, your brakes are only as good as your available traction.

 

Your brakes don't know if you have 50HP or 500HP, all it knows is there's a moving disk (or drum) that it applies friction to and that disk (or drum) absorbs the heat produced then uses air to disipate that heat. It will keep doing this as long as you apply the brakes or the disk (or drum) stops turning. That said, almost any properly maintained and proportianed, brake system will overcome the available traction of the car with strong pedal effort applied. What good is more braking power if your in a skid? In most cases the stock brake system, even older ones, will take a car from a high rate of speed to a complete stop at least once without fading and at the limits of tire adhesion (a typical street or drag strip scenerio).

 

Brake upgrades (typically) will simply extend the number of times you can perform consecutive severe braking events and often (but not always) reduce to effort needed for threshold braking. This makes it a safety upgrade for the track but offers minimal gain on the street and strip since these types of stops tend to be single events. Upgrading brakes on a street car in the name of safety seems to imply that your stock braking system is unsafe but in fact a properly maintained stock brake system with good pads will easily stop your car at the limits of traction.

[Guest Anonymous]

Good advise, and I agree totally, take no shortcuts, brakes are a definite must, for a just street driven car even the toyo 4 pistons is better than nothing, if you can afford better, even better. Good harnesses will keep you out of the windshield, a cage, I guess it depends on the installation and how its anchored but could be helpful in a roll over, although as John said the best safety device is between your ears, us it and save rolling the car, even with safety devices I can almost guarantee you're going to be hating life (and hospital food) for a while. Going fast is great, dying fast isn't worth it (well I'd rather die fast than slow, but you get the point).

 

Keep the rubber down, and the shiney side up,

 

Lone

[pparaska]

But putting bigger (wider and taller - and usually higher weight and rotating inertia) wheels and tires takes away from the ability of the stock brakes from the get go. If you go to larger diameter tires (outside diameter) and increase the rotation inertia, this adds to the amount of braking force needed to stop the car in the same distance.

 

Also, coming down from speed more often is a result of having more power under the hood. WIth the capability to get going faster, you increase the probablity of needed to stop from higher average speeds, making better gripping and less fading brakes more important.

 

The other issue is modulation for car control. Larger brakes for those larger wheels and tires will probably mean that you'll be able to modulate the brakes better and control the car better.

[johnc]

> The other issue is modulation for car control.

> Larger brakes for those larger wheels and tires

> will probably mean that you'll be able to

> modulate the brakes better and control the car

> better

 

Brake modulation and control has more to do with matching master cylinder and caliper piston sizes, front/rear balance, and brake pad material than the size of rotors, wheels, and tires. At the MSA autocross I drove a couple 240Zs that had big brake upgrades and the only way you could tell a wheel was locking was by seeing smoke. Braking force was purely a function of brake pedal position, not how hard you were pushing on it.

 

Braking balance, control, and consistency is much more important than ultimate stopping power. If my brakes work the same every time and provide good feedback I'll be able to beat a car with brakes not having the same attributes even through the magazines say it stops 25' shorter.

 

If bigger rotors, bigger calipers, etc. give you that consistency and control, go for it. But don't quickly abandon a braking system that's been proven on racetracks for almost 30 years.

[pparaska]

John, I should have been more clear.

 

What I was getting at was if you increase the tire diameter, and rotational inertia by a goodly amount, you'll need more brake pedal force for the same brake setup. That can bring you into a region of difficult modulation if you're not leg-strong. I agree on the system design issue withe master cylinder, wheel cylinder/caliper piston and brake friction materials as well.

 

I think the best reasons to upgrade Z brakes are: 1) add vented rotors to get away from brake fade (you have to decide if you really have a fade problem though!) and 2) add rear discs for either less brake adjustment needs and/or looks with open wheels.

[Phantom]

My'77Z - No side impact beams, no crumple zones, no air bags, doesn't even have bumpers & old Z's aren't known for having a lot of extra steel in them. I've driven it 101,000 miles over 10 years in the Dallas-Ft. Worth area and haven't put a dent in it. Why - it has an extremely sophisticated accident avoidance system on board - me. I've learned to scan the traffic around me (including in the rear view mirror)and anticipate the screwy things other drivers do. I have avoided cleanly several incidents where my car would have been at least totaled and maybe even had a loss of life - mine. I'm not saying we don't need good safety equipment but it will never take the place of good driving habits - those devices just kicks in when the habits aren't there or someone gets stupid.