Would These Headers Work With Either Jtr Or Msa?

[Mikelly]

You guys are going down the wrong path... According to S&S it isn't their header that is the problem. Their "Guy" told me that they do custom builds for heads on Datsun Zs, but the price rises drastically... They believe it is the way we are mounting the motor using the JTR that is the issue and how we move the engine lower and further back, causing the tranny and headers to sit lower... The guy didn't even want to see pics I could mail him. They have a product to sell and they are selling a lot of that product and have no desire to change their jig. Also, be forewarned, that tubing used by S&S is pathetically thin... We've damaged TWO sets "tweeking" them.

 

The first time I chatted with them on the phone, their "Guy" told me he would love to hear ideas about making it better... and would even consider making a different style... Second time, you would have though I was talking to a different company altogether...

 

Good luck and keep us posted...

 

Mike

[Guest PROJECTRB240SX]

 

THANKS TO NO_DAMN_240 HE FOUND THESE ON SUMMIT WHICH WOULD ACTUALLY WORK WITH MOST OF OUR SWAP ALITTLE BETTER BEING AS IT HAS A 1 5/8 PRIAMRY DIAMETER WITH THE SAME DIMENSIONS AS THE H8018 (ACCORDING TO PERTRONIX)

 

HERE IS THE INFO HE SENT ME, H8039:

 

Summit--

PTE-H8039 $259.95

Estimated Ship Date: Today

OverviewBrand: Patriot Exhaust Products

Product Line: Patriot Full Length with Ford Chassis Headers

Header Material: Steel

Header Finish: Natural

Header Style: Full length

Primary Tube Diameter (in): 1 5/8

Collector Diameter (in): 3

Equal Length: No

Primary Tube Gauge: 16-gauge

Collector Attachment: 3-bolt flange

Cylinder Head Port Shape: Oval

Flange Style: Standard

Flange Thickness (in): 1/4

Bolts/Studs Included: Yes

Gaskets Included: Yes

Reducers Included: No

Y-pipe Included: No

Quantity: Sold as a pair.

 

Powerful performance from Patriot.

 

Headers, Full Length, Steel, Natural, Street Rod with Chevy, Small Block, Kit

 

Full length Ford-chassis headers from Patriot provide the ultimate in

performance for street rods and musclecars with high-performance engines. The

key is their use of long primary tubes, resulting in more horsepower and torque

than headers from the competition. These tubes are made using mandrel-bent

tubing, and they fit close to the engine block for maximum chassis and steering

clearance.

[Psykovertible]

I am waiting for a return phone call about modifying those h8039 ones. What I proposed is that they shortent the section of header that runs toward the rear of car that the collector flange is on. I suggested that they be shortened to the point where the headers take a turn back upward. i dont know if that makes sense so i will reword.

 

flange....tubes go down.... 90 degree bend toward rear.....then small bend up (which is good on most cars cause it levels the pipes in relation to ground)..... then a small strech of pipe... then collector. i wanna shorten to the point where it makes the small bend up and put collector there.

[Guest PROJECTRB240SX]

If They Would Do That That Would Be Awesome.... But I Don't Knwo If They Are Going To Change Their Production For That Change, Even Though They Do Have A Market For It.

[Psykovertible]

may be a slightly better option yet

 

Sanderson header:

 

they can be had in 1 5/8, 1 3/4 or 1 7/8 primary

Dimensions:

3.75" out, 16" down, 23" front to back (front of header flange to end of collecor)

 

 

Partriot header:

 

1 5/8" primary only

 

Dimensions:

3.5" out, 17.5" down, 23.25" front to back (front of header flange to end of collecor)

 

 

keep in mind that the header flange front front to back is about 18.5" by measuring my heads. plus there is a little more to go before passing the end of the block. so 19-20" gets you from the front of the header flange to teh rear of the block. so the headers will stick about 3"past the block. I am still trying to get these specs on the S&S headers to compare.

 

ok. well i gave up on trying to find the info on the net and called S&S. He was nice and somewhat helpfull. He told me that from the header flange bolts to the bottom of the primary tubes it would be 16 inches. Add probably .75" to the top of the flange for good meaure and you have 16.5 - 16.75 top to bottom. He couldnt tell me the total for how far the primary stick out from the block as they make the first bend to go down. he also told me that the primary tubes stop at the back of the block. then the collector is a total of 6" further toward rear.

 

So it sound like the S&S ones are about 3" longer which may be why they are hitting the floor pan.

 

I asked about shortening the tubes to get the collector away from the floor pan and he agreed that he could do that but it would raise the RPM range from about a 6500 RPM redline to 7000-7500 area. he advised that it would be better to shorten the collector instead which could give me up to 3" shorter measurement to the rear.

 

I am thinking that I still want to shorten the tubes because my motor is built for 1500-6500 RPM. If I shorten the tubes it would mean that my motor will run out of RPM before my headers.

 

GRUMPYVETTE ARE YOU WATCHING??

 

 

I would love some input on this. He seemed to not agree that there would a ground clearance issue for two reasons. sometime in the last year they took out the 5 degree kick up so the tubes now follow the same angle as the motor as apposed to kicking up to accomodate a down angled motor like before. Also, he said that the primary tubes hand down .75 inches less than before where the tubes make the 90 to head back to the collector.

 

In my application I dont think headers are going to crap jack-crap differnce in what I get from the car. Block huggers are fine. But I am shooting for a fit-and-finsh look to take to shows for bling.

 

 

Sorry for long winded posts

[titanium]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7968846650&category=33631

 

What do you guys think about that?

[Tim240z]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7968846650&category=33631

 

What do you guys think about that?

That vendor has a horrible reputation. I would not buy from him just on the few stories that I have heard.....

[Psykovertible]

i've heard that their quality is lacking bu those are bas *** looking. there was a tread on this turbo thing very recently that would love to see those

[Psykovertible]

you know i just noticed on those turbo ones..... there should be a left and a right and it looks like there are two of one side. the tubes should angle away from each like a mirror image (or together) bu not run the same way like they do. that would suck to find out later. one turbo sticking through the hood and the other 6 inches below

[Guest PROJECTRB240SX]

Well You Let Me Know If You Even Want Me To Try? I Can Purcahse Those Long Tube Patriots Once I Get My Motor Situation Handled And We Can Check Fit And Alter It To Fit Better..... Does Anyone In Phoenix Metro Have A Dummy Motor (or A Blown Up Motor) I Can Use To Mock Up The Car And Check Fit?

[Psykovertible]

well i think they are worth trying. It may be prudent to wait for Mikelly's response to my question though. I gave him some direction on what/how we were comparing so that he could measure the S&S ones in the same manner that the specs on the patriots were taken.

 

Hypothetically, if we get some patriot ones and dont screw up with mock up can they be returned if they dont fit and what would it cost in shipping or restock fees?

 

I am still interested highly in a cost effective alternative. If they measure out to be very close then i would go patriot to save the money.

 

S&S did say that the tubes are 16 gauge so they are the same thickness tubing.

[Guest PROJECTRB240SX]

Well With Summit Pretty Much Anything Is Returnable.... And Ultimately Anything Can Be Modified. Whenever I Get My Engine Squared Away I'll Order Up A Set And See If They'll Fit With Msa Mounts.

[Psykovertible]

sweet. it sounds like a low risk trial then. I guess I was just freeked a little about the potential flushing of funds. Just got my roller rockers finally today BTW. Just got some money from a side job too. I guess I'll be gripping onto it till we see how those headers work out. I was thinking all day about where to spend it and just realized that it may be time to buy headers. Excited all over again now bout the headers.

[pparaska]

Sanderson header:

 

they can be had in 1 5/8' date=' 1 3/4 or 1 7/8 primary Dimensions:

3.75" out, 16" down, 23" front to back (front of header

flange to end of collecor)[/quote']

I'm wondering about these .. any part numbers you can share?

 

He seemed to not agree that there would a ground clearance issue for two reasons. sometime in the last year they took out the 5 degree kick up so the tubes now follow the same angle as the motor as apposed to kicking up to accomodate a down angled motor like before. Also, he said that the primary tubes hand down .75 inches less than before where the tubes make the 90 to head back to the collector.

What we have here is a failure to communicate . The issue with the S&S 28-34 Ford header is NOT only the collector height, it's the height from the bottom of the bolting holes on the head flange to the bottom of the primaries right after they bend back towards the collector. For me to consider their headers for this application, that is just one of the things that would need to be changed (the length of the vertical part of the primaries).

 

But that's not all. Of the ones I've seen or heard off (Mikelly's, jcb3's, Jim M.'s), they are not all made the same shape. They interfere at different places on different cars that use the same mounting setup (JTR), in the lateral direction. My guess is that their jig is not good enough to really hold the tubing shapes as tightly as we need.

 

S&S did say that the tubes are 16 gauge so they are the same thickness tubing.

Well, I'm not too sure about that. Some members here have seen the S&S header we're discussing and they are REALLY thin, nothing like 16 gage, more like 18 or 20. And this is in a non-bent area, so it's not that they got thin at the bend or anything.

[Psykovertible]

it sound like S&S is inconsistent at best,,,,, both in building and talking about the product. I am pretty much just done with them. I hope the patriot part fits. I will have to double check to see if I can find the sanderson parts again.

[Psykovertible]

http://www.sandersonheaders.com/enginetype/chvysb49eng.htm

 

LOOK HERE FOR SANDERSON HEADERS. BELOW ARE THE THREE I FOUND THAT LOOK USABLE.

 

http://www.sandersonheaders.com/pagesbypartnum/c3.htm

 

http://www.sandersonheaders.com/pagesbypartnum/c32.htm

 

http://www.sandersonheaders.com/pagesbypartnum/c32ap.htm