Guest bastaad525 Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 well I've been checking out the link at the top of the page, daydreaming and endlessly contemplating about buying a pre-assembled MS setup. I just had some general questions. I know the recommended way to install this in a turbo setup is to use the '82-83 distributor with CAS built in. But I seem to recall reading somewhere that some of you were using a regular N/A distributor. So my question is, if I were go with an N/A distributor and MSnS, where does the MS get the signal from that WOULD have come from the CAS? Next, I have the '81 CAS and blank distributor. If I wanted to switch to an N/A distributor, do I still have to change out the shaft like if I was going to install an '82-83 dizzy? I have an MSD 6A installed on my car, would this figure in at all with using the N/A distributor? Would it make anything easier in any case of whichever distributor I went with? Is there any huge advantage to buying the preassembled wiring harness offered by DIYAutoTune? Is this an ideal harness for the Z? Is the relay board required? As much as you guys brag that MS is so cheap.. it seems every time I price the unit including all the parts I think it will need, it ends up being... not so cheap EDIT: one other question. I seem to remember, not so long ago, someone here pointed out another W/B O2 setup, similiar to the LM-1, but quite a bit cheaper? Does anyone know which one that was??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 Just follow my lead, and use the 81 components. It really works well now... I had miscounted my advance teeth. After installing it correctly, all my maladies went away. If you use an N/A distributor, you will have to lock the dizzy advance down so it can't do anything, then use the reluctor pickup to trigger another HEI module, or an MSD---seems like a lot of work when you already have all you need right there ready to plug n play... If you are scared about modifying the timing disc, I haven't checked close enough on mine yet, but the stock CAS bracket might have juuuuuuuuust enough adjustability to get you the total advance you need if you take the CAS off and trim the mounting bracket to it lets the CAS move further "up" the bracket for a bit more advance. You only need about 10 more degrees than the stock bracket allows for, not really that much trimming involved! I believe JeffP mentioned the Techedge WBO2 unit from Australia... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Loose_Screws Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 EDIT: one other question. I seem to remember, not so long ago, someone here pointed out another W/B O2 setup, similiar to the LM-1, but quite a bit cheaper? Does anyone know which one that was??? Maybe the Zeitronix WB? http://www.zeitronix.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akeizm Posted July 1, 2005 Share Posted July 1, 2005 I got my ms and wiring harness from rs and I must say having the wiring loom right there with all the names on the wires made the job alot easier! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted July 3, 2005 Share Posted July 3, 2005 Tony, I'm having trouble picturing exactly how to modify the CAS bracket in the way you're describing. Any help you could give me in visualizing would be wonderful If it can be done w/o removing the crank pulley... well let's just say the appeal of running MS keeps going up and up. One thing I'm a little confused about, it was once thought that you couldn't make MS work with the '81 CAS, until you finally gave it a shot. So what do you think about the possibilities of somehow getting the '81 CAS working with the Z31 ECU swap?? Akeizm - cool then if/when I go MS I'm definately going with their wiring harness. That way I don't have to cut mine, even better. I guess they are getting hard to find? Thanks for the names of those other WB setups I'll check those out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted July 3, 2005 Share Posted July 3, 2005 The CAS units on 81 through 83 are TOTALLY INTERCHANGABLE. If the Z31 swap requires you to swap the Z31 CAS internals into the 280ZX Dizzy, then you aren't using an 82/83 Dizzy, are you? LOL If it works with an 82.83 dizzy unmodified, then an 81 CAS PLUGS IN. They have the SAMe connector, and from my O-Scope testing give the EXACT SAME waveform! If you have even taken an 81 CAS off it's adjustment bracket, you see it fits in a little bracket with (for this discussion) basically a large, oval hole in it sorts curved like a banana. The top and the bottom of the "banana hole" limit upward and downward travel of the CAS unit because on the back of the CAS is a little tang that fits inside the ajduster screw. If you grind the top or bottom of the "banana hole" you increase the travel in whatever direction you ground. This increases the advance able to be cranked into the CAS unit by the stock Adjusting screw. If you screw it all the way to the top of the existing hole, you get about 35 degrees advance. If you were to grind the top of the banana hole more, you would be allowed more advance. Follow? The bracket the CAS mounts in has travel for about 80 degrees of ADVANCE adjustment from zero (TDC) but it is limited by the little "banana hole" piece. If you cut the top out of that piece, you can adjust the CAS up waay more than the stock limiter will allow, but still be on the main mounting bracket. I may have photos from my last readjustment, I will have to look. If I do I will post them at cardomain and reference them here in this post. Hope that made some sort of sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 B, I thought I had taken photos last go on the last adjustment, but it was only of the CAS unit itself sitting on the fender. Next time I go over to ianz's house, I will snap some photos of the adjustment bracket, which should make it very clear what has to be done without screwing with the trigger wheel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 that would be sweet Tony, thx. well about the Z31 swap, the only thing you change is that chopper wheel to get the 280zxt dizzy compatible with the Z31 ecu. The two chopper wheels don't even look that much different. So what exactly does the chopper wheel do and what are the exact differences between the two? It seems to me that it wouldn't be hard to do something to the '81 CAS... maybe a mod similiar to what you did to your crank pulley, to somehow simulate the signal that the z31 chopper wheel gives? I know I'm reaching here... just really interested. Another thing about my CAS... maybe there is something wrong with it? If I adjust it to it's most advanced position, I can only get the timing to about 23-24 degrees BTDC, with the car idling, checking with a timing light. Furthermore, it seems it only allows a total range of maybe 8 degrees of adjustment from highest to lowest, though the amount of actual MOVEMENT seems to me to be more than 8 degrees around the pulley?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernardd Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/xcart/customer/home.php?cat=253 LC1 is what you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 Another thing about my CAS... maybe there is something wrong with it? If I adjust it to it's most advanced position, I can only get the timing to about 23-24 degrees BTDC, with the car idling, checking with a timing light. Furthermore, it seems it only allows a total range of maybe 8 degrees of adjustment from highest to lowest, though the amount of actual MOVEMENT seems to me to be more than 8 degrees around the pulley?? Mine was 24 adjusted midway between extremes, and my understanding is that is how it should have been. You can count the teeth from the trigger paddle to the mark to TDC and see the degrees you are advancing/retarding. I moved something like 8 teeth from the trigger point by moving it up all the way...that should be 16 degrees, and half that added to 24 initial (in the middle) gives you 32 degrees total. Not quite enough. Under boost it runs fine, but under high vaccum cruise, it's just not enough (35 to 37, and in some cases 40!) Remember to do crankshaft degrees you have to move it twice as far as you would on the distributor. That is why the adjustment slots on the 82/83 Dissy allow you 50 degrees. 24+16=40 so for the same relative movement, you get TWICE the displacement!... As for screwing with the chopper wheel, like I said, then you aren't using the 82/83 Dizzy, you are using the Z31 setup, and it may have the same waveform, but I believe there is another sensor in there that references TDC on #1 cylinder... There is not any sort of pickup in the 81CAS to do that, so the conversion would only work in Batch Fire, and the idea behind the Z31 is that you get a semi-sequential firing of the injectors at lower speeds... For the Effort, Lance's System can do that, and is only $1700.... Muahahaha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 so then there is something wrong with my CAS that I can only get very little adjustment out of it?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy 77zt Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 i have a 81 zxt in 77 i am working on.i put a cherry hall effect sensor in the plate between engine & trans and installed magnets in the flywheel.that method seemed to use the least amount of parts.i think xander did this also. the 81 dizzy just distributes the spark.i wanted the install that used the least amount of parts.i only had to drill holes for this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted July 6, 2005 Share Posted July 6, 2005 Yes, that is what Xander did. He was all stoked about doing it when I talked with him in Paris last November. I thought using the flywheel was a good idea, as I recall, some Dodges used that method, and it's pretty proteected, so nothing should bet bonked around during an accident or normal usage. I thought of doing it on the starter side, so all I needed to do to inspect the things was drop the starter. My only reservation was putting in a dowel or pin to orient the flywheel to the crankshaft permanently (like the LD Crank Does) so during a panic clutch change, you don't skip timing to some radical new setting by moving the magnets one or two bolt holes the wrong way... Being there's what, 6 holes, that might work in several positions now that I think on it! LOL Maybe a punch mark... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted July 6, 2005 Share Posted July 6, 2005 so then there is something wrong with my CAS that I can only get very little adjustment out of it?? Dude, I have no idea, I know I was ALMOST where I needed to be by adjusting it all the way up. Just not quite enough... At least by my adjustable timing light it was... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy 77zt Posted July 6, 2005 Share Posted July 6, 2005 i punch marked the flywheel to the crank.i bought a degree wheel and a spark plug hole piston stop tool to install the magnets in the flywheel.the offset is 60 degrees.i like round numbers.the magnets are cherry also-there come in a round aluminum holder with a #8 stud on the back.after finding out i didnt have enough room to mount the magnets with the studs i ground the studs off and drilled holes in the flywheel and countersunk the magnet units into the flywheel.there is a good explanation of pull up resistor wiring and product specs on cherry website.i tested the hall effect with a 9 volt battery and a led before install.car is not running yet but should be soon.only problem with this set up is i dont have another flywheel for the other engine and i will have to calibrate/drill another flywheel for the other engine.but that is in the future-i am going to so what a bone stock 2.8turbo will make with modern efi & intercooler.goal is a stong daily driver with 21st century driveability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted July 6, 2005 Share Posted July 6, 2005 Tony - about being 'almost where you needed to be' this was to allow you to get, what, full 40 degrees advance at most right? Question - what advance does the stock 280zxt efi run under high vacuum/low-mid rpm cruise? Does it usually or ever get that high? If I tried to use MS with my CAS w/o modifying anything, and couldn't reach that 40*, how detrimental is that going to be? How would it run compared to the stock setup at cruise? Did you want a full 40 because it makes THAT much difference in throttle response at cruise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted July 7, 2005 Share Posted July 7, 2005 Tony - about being 'almost where you needed to be' this was to allow you to get' date=' what, full 40 degrees advance at most right? Question - what advance does the stock 280zxt efi run under high vacuum/low-mid rpm cruise? Does it usually or ever get that high? If I tried to use MS with my CAS w/o modifying anything, and couldn't reach that 40*, how detrimental is that going to be? How would it run compared to the stock setup at cruise? Did you want a full 40 because it makes THAT much difference in throttle response at cruise?[/quote'] Somewhere in that range. It is hard determining timing on the 81ZXT because the PADDLE is NOT the timing mark! (That may be your problem in your readings, BTW, it was part of my problem in the beginning!) There is a secondary mark (two actually) for timing the CAS, and another for timing the engine when running. I found there was a MARKED difference once I got "full advance" in both how the boost came on, and how it pulled. It was really soggy without that extra timing in there. I don't know how a stock ZXT feels, so I can't say you wouldn't think it was better. As for what the stock ZXT timing goes to, I have asked that question myself, and nobody has charted it. I was really interested in it. I can get the stuff from JeffP for the 300 computer, and that kinda relates, because he can hack the JWT box and compare it to the stock timing curves in the BIN Files... I may have to do that, huh? I could probably run the same timing as his setup.... All I know is the MS is FAR more responsive, even with the bad timing than any of the "stock conversions" I have been around. Since they are not my cars I can't really drive them like I normally would and do testing at load points like I do in my cars, but the general impression I get is that Nissan used a VERY CONSERVATIVE spark curve (and with knock sensing below 3500rpm). This REALLY kills low end response, just like it does in an N/A car. More timing, more cylinder pressure, more torque, more acceleration... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 yeah mine definately feels soggy w/o boost, and advancing the timing two degrees from stock made a VERY noticeable difference that even my wife could feel. so I definately wouldn't want to do it w/o altering the CAS bracket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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