302 build up please help

[Gollum]

Haha im 17 too. Your going to kill yourself at 400hp i would think

 

Any way sounds good' date=' I would still keep it N/A though. I hope you plan on upgrading the brakes and installing LSD with significantly bigger tires before you soup the engine up. I am sticking to the 225 horse stock 5.0 HO for now, even though i haven't driven it yet, i know it is more then enough power. I need to learn the car ALOT before I upgrade its engine. Not trying to be a dad or anything at all, just make sure you know what your doing [/quote']

 

This is a smart kid (hope you don't mind me calling you a kid. I consider myself a kid too ). The stock HP will be FAST compared to the stock HP. You should keep up with the new GT mustangs i'd think. That weight will make a big difference.

 

LSD could save your life too if you drive to agressive on the street. Brakes would be a good idea. But TIRES TIRES TIRES, those will make more difference in your braking than you'd think. People race on the stock brake systems. Just upgrate to SS lines, good fluid, and good pads and you'll be able to handle the stock HP just fine I think.

[Gollum]

Any swap IS legal, as long as the motor is legal. If you go thowing on totally illegal heads and then go to the ref they'll send you home and say you can't drive your car till it's fixed.

 

With any motor swap legalisation you have to pass a visual test and then the emission tests. On 75 and old vehicles this is a one time even. After that you're golden.

[rudypoochris]

This is a smart kid (hope you don't mind me calling you a kid. I consider myself a kid too ). The stock HP will be FAST compared to the stock HP. You should keep up with the new GT mustangs i'd think. That weight will make a big difference.

 

LSD could save your life too if you drive to agressive on the street. Brakes would be a good idea. But TIRES TIRES TIRES' date=' those will make more difference in your braking than you'd think. People race on the stock brake systems. Just upgrate to SS lines, good fluid, and good pads and you'll be able to handle the stock HP just fine I think.[/quote']

 

Ya all that and just remember to keep your head cool. I already realize that my 160hp 4300 lb explorer is maybe too much power for me, can't wait to see how much restraint i will HAVE TO learn when i drive my 240hp (hoping to get the extra 15 by going to carb and ditching the emissions stuff) 2100 lb 240z.

 

Back on topic. Can the stock heads work with twin turbos effectively or is it like trying to cram way too much air threw too small a hole?

[rudypoochris]

Any swap IS legal' date=' as long as the motor is legal. If you go thowing on totally illegal heads and then go to the ref they'll send you home and say you can't drive your car till it's fixed.

 

With any motor swap legalisation you have to pass a visual test and then the emission tests. On 75 and old vehicles this is a one time even. After that you're golden.[/quote']

 

I was under the impression you didn't even have to go to the ref on a pre 74 vehicle? Is that right or wrong?

[TomsCoupe]

Ya all that and just remember to keep your head cool. I already realize that my 160hp 4300 lb explorer is maybe too much power for me' date=' can't wait to see how much restraint i will HAVE TO learn when i drive my 240hp (hoping to get the extra 15 by going to carb and ditching the emissions stuff) 2100 lb 240z.

 

Back on topic. Can the stock heads work with twin turbos effectively or is it like trying to cram way too much air threw too small a hole?[/quote']

you will be happy with 240hp for about 2 weeks. :EvilGrin:

its all downhill from there...lol

[rudypoochris]

you will be happy with 240hp for about 2 weeks. :EvilGrin:

its all downhill from there...lol

 

Hehe nah i will be happy with that for a couple years I would think. Well maybe not fully happy, but i would want to master the car at that level before i swap in a 370hp centralcoast monster. Hell, i am still not ready to up the explorer's horsepower after 2 years and it is only 160, thats because i realize it needs better tires, brakes, suspension, and LSD before i procede. We shall see...

[Gollum]

I was under the impression you didn't even have to go to the ref on a pre 74 vehicle? Is that right or wrong?

 

I'm pretty sure you're correct. But the way the law is written they encourage you to see the ref. But I'll guarentee thatif a cop pulls you over, and he wants to be a jerk, he can send you to the ref if you don't have a swap plate.

 

I've even had a ref tell me to "just drive the car and try to get away with it. Worry about it AFTER you get pulled over." Nice ref eh?

 

I'd just keep all the emissions stuff to be safe. If you do get told to go to the ref, just put the motor back to stock and then get it legalised. Now, if you want to REALLy get tricky, you can try to pass it off as an old 351 motor. They're VERY similar blocks and with some cobra labeld valve covers you might be able to do it. In 72 ford ofered two 351 motors, one a CJ spec and one was a HO motor, but it was basically a low compression boss 351 motor. Most refs won't be able to tell the difference. But you have to make sure you say it's from a car "the same year or newer" for it to be legal.

 

But doing this would allow you much more modification within what any cop could visibly detect. They'll see "72 351 Mustang" and only be able point fingers in very few locations. That's when the lovelly inocent grin kicks in and you get to have fun with a cop, as opposed to the other way around.

 

EDIT: What year is your car rudypoochris?

[TomsCoupe]

Man am i glad i live in canada. All we have to do here is De-tune the car, throw on some catalitic converters and go through smog testing. After smog testing, take out the cats, set the tune back to original, and your done. if a cop stops you, he will probably check for cats, see there not there and give you a VI(Vehicle inspection). All you do is throw the cats back on, pass the VI and then take them out again.

[rudypoochris]

EDIT: What year is your car rudypoochris?

 

72

 

Man am i glad i live in canada. All we have to do here is De-tune the car, throw on some catalitic converters and go through smog testing. After smog testing, take out the cats, set the tune back to original, and your done. if a cop stops you, he will probably check for cats, see there not there and give you a VI(Vehicle inspection). All you do is throw the cats back on, pass the VI and then take them out again.

 

You can do that here also. It is illegal in both places though...

 

About smog, whats nice is since it is a 302 there is so much out there that all i would need is a JY cat and the EFI and i should be at what is considered "stock". Although i think i read somewhere that i wouldn't even need cats, because the refs realize that they would cause heat issues on the cars floor.

[24 oz]

I'm in the middle of upgrading my brakes hopefully ill be finished tomorrow. So what are the chances that the cop would want to look under the hood??

[TomsCoupe]

72

 

 

 

You can do that here also. It is illegal in both places though...

 

About smog' date=' whats nice is since it is a 302 there is so much out there that all i would need is a JY cat and the EFI and i should be at what is considered "stock". Although i think i read somewhere that i wouldn't even need cats, because the refs realize that they would cause heat issues on the cars floor.[/quote']

what i was saying is, you can mod your engine any way you want, as long as it passes smog testing. Actually, in most parts of BC, Canada, there is no smog testing at all. That means no cats needed to run on the street.

[rudypoochris]

I'm in the middle of upgrading my brakes hopefully ill be finished tomorrow. So what are the chances that the cop would want to look under the hood??

 

I don't think it matters even if he does want to. I would worry about it after, that is just me. Cool, what brake setup are you going for? I am just going with 4X4 vented setup, in retrospec maybe the wilwoods would of been a better idea, but that is just because you get alot more bang for the buck. Except i am already way overbudget so the extra $800 of cost (taking into acount front and rear wilwood vs front and rear toyota/240sx) couldn't be justified.

[MusPuppis]

I am sticking to the 225 horse stock 5.0 HO for now, even though i haven't driven it yet, i know it is more then enough power

 

That should really move you pretty well. I have a 94 F-150 that weighs about 5000pds with a lightly built 5.0 in it. I'd estimate it making something to the tune of 250-270hp at the crank or something and it will haul that truck around pretty damn efficiently. I also have a piss-poor rear end (3.13's or somesuch nonesence) and the stock single out, soda-straw diameter exhuast.

 

A quick question.. You mention having an 88 5.0.. Out of what? Just curious cause, to my knowledge, the Stangs were the only ones with roller 5.0's in 'em and theres a heft difference in the 5.0's you get out of Crown Vics (160hp, 250trq I beleive) F-150's (my old motor.. 180hp, 280trq or so) and various other versions to be found crammed into late 80's, early 90's Fords.

 

Another potential option would be a H/C/I package. Trick Flow and Holley both make a package for the 5.0. They run about 2000$ and include an intake, cam and heads + ALL the gaskets/hardware/crap for the install. New timing chain and gears as well. Its really a fantastic deal when you look at the claimed improvements (I beleive they claim it will get you in the upper 300's on a stock 5.0, nearing 400hp) + all thats included in the package. I know you mentioned JYing some heads and wanting to mod the engine with a keen eye to cost, so I dont know how large your budget is, but for the 5.0's its tough to beat the cost vs effectiveness of the H/C/I packages. Granted, the ones I listed are for EFI vehicles, but I'm sure some poking around would find similar packages for carbed cars.

 

Oh, the AFR165-185 heads are REALLY friggen good, lol.

[Gollum]

I'm in the middle of upgrading my brakes hopefully ill be finished tomorrow. So what are the chances that the cop would want to look under the hood??

 

 

You live in the bay area... I'd say a 90% chance. And they'll use any excuse. Expecially becuase of your age, not joking.

 

I assumed your 88' motor was from a stang, but if that's not true there are other things to consider. The stang motor is much easier to start with.

 

Rudypoochris, you're set then if you ever do need to bring your car to the ref. The 351 motors were availble till 75'. So just say it's a 72' 351 cobra jet motor. There isn't much to worry about. They didn't come with cats so no worries there. Just make sure you have a VERY low cfm carb to make sure to pass smog. Should be cheep if you do end up needing one in the future. We can talk more about it later when you get closer to complete 8)

 

Now, I still have yet to ever hear about a cop that got on the ground to check for a cat. And I've known TONS of people who have been pulled over several times and told to pop thier hood. When they can't get you on anything though, they'll very often sucumb to things like "bald tires" that are practically new, forcing you to get it signed off by another officer yada yada yada, front license plate bull, they'll find SOMETHING to write you up on most the time.

 

How to avoid these things? Look as stock as possible. No big muffler tips. It's better to run straight pipes than have a huge muffler tips. Just try to make the car look clean and unmodified. That's one reason I really like the ZG flares, they almost look stock on the car. Now, I'm all for a car that looks really awsome, i'm just saying the more you bring attention to your car you'd better be ready to BS with cops. Example, my friend with a legal CRX jspec B16 has gotten pulled over more times that I can count. How many fixit tickets has he actually paid for? 2. How many has he gotten off of? More than 10 in 3 years. Why? Becuase it's yellow and has a huge crome muffler hanging lower than the gas tank. Is it loud? No, not by the local standards. Is it obviously not stock? Yes. I don't know anyone who gets pulled over more often than him. He doesn't have a single point on his lisence, to attest to the fact that he doesn't actually ever get tickets. It's always listed as a "suspicious pull over". That's the BS i'm talking about.

 

This is the only reason I'd recomend going to a ref to get a swap legalised.

[MusPuppis]

Thats why I love living in Ky.

 

No emissions crap to worry about. So long as you have cats on your car, your about good to go.

[24 oz]

I am doing the toyota non vented swap, this is weird almost everything were doing to our cars are the same we both are doing 302s in a 72 and were both 17, talk about weird lol. What color is your car?

[Gollum]

Hey, thought you might like this article guys (24 oz & rudypoochris)

 

http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2003/06/afrinstall/

 

Good article on a shop doing an install of the AFR emissions legal 165 heads. They're in CA so i wouldn't be surprised if they had the CATs on, and the cobras had 4 cats. They list the differences between the regular HO motors and the GT40 motor in the cobras. But in light of this article (that i read forever ago and forgot about till now) I'd say the AFR 185 heads with aftermarket rockers, ford racing E303 camshaft (CARB legal), aftermarket FPR (illegal, have to hide it), and aftermarket headers you should be close to your 400 mark. If you aren't at that point you might need to start upgrading the intake (upper, lower, TB). I'm almost positive the EFI system will be fine, if it isn't just upgrade the injectors and voila. Just make sure your O2 sensor is good so you don't detonate during part and off throttle. Spend the money to take it to the dyno once it's done.

 

Hope this help some.

[MusPuppis]

If you're wanting to hit the 400 mark a new intake will definatly be needed. Or go to Stangnat and look for a member named Tmoss. He ports the stock lowers to flow like crazy. The stock uppers are pretty damn nice as-is. New TB as well. Its not as easy to make 400hp as some folks seem to think it is. Your looking to nearly double the output of the engine. While the 302 definatly has the potential, dont expect to toss a couple bolt-ons into the engine bay and make numbers like that without some investment.

 

Remember, the flow increase in the new heads doesnt mean a whole lot if the stock intake (which is somewhat poor) and TB arent delivery enough air for the heads to utilize.

 

The stock Mustang EFI system is fine (dont get speed density.. 86-87 models I think). A number of different types of tuners can program it. You'r going to almost certainly need to get it done if you plan on making 400hp. Your basicly changing, to one degree or another, everything in the engine except the block and internals themselves. THis will really require proper tuning or the stock ECU will greatly limit the power you see.

[Gollum]

All of what muspuppis said is true, sorry if I made it sound easy.

 

But it's still relatively cheep. You should be able to do it for around 3k methinks. The upper intake as mus stated, is pretty good. Even the afterket ones are darn close to what the stock ones are. If you really wanted to you could get fancy and cut the manifold in half, port it, then reweld it. But it should be fine.

 

Even in the article I posted, some mild lower intake porting was done. I agree that some major porting would be recomended for 400HP aplication. I'm still not positive either way weather or not you'll need a larger TB, but if muspuppis thinks you will i'm not going to disagree with him.

 

One thing I didn't list was pushrods, those you'll want to change out.

 

But what are we looking at? Full head build up, cam, exhast & intake upgrades, and some mild work to the FI system. But you don't have to go outragously expensive on any of it for 400HP. I think the heads will be the largest investment, and they'll flow fine well into your needs and them some.

[rudypoochris]

Your still going to kill yourself. But if that is what you plan on doing, then ya do what they said above. Although about TB's i just need a little clarification, I was reading on fordfuelinjection.com and it said a stock TB recieves 5volts and sends back about 4v at stock WOT. The guy mentioned that upgrading to some larger TB's will trick the computer by sending back a reading of less volts for the same airflow. Would this mean that computer reprogramming would/should be done if one upgrades the TB?