tannji Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 OK, going by section description, this post doesnt really belong anywhere, so here it is = ). I have been considering the SR20DET swap for a while now, and was strongly leaning in that direction for a while. About a year or so ago someone mentioned the potential of the Toyota 2.7L 4-cylinder 3RZ-FE, and while it looked interesting, I couldnt find a lot of info on it, and the lack of aftermarket parts and support made the SR20 look like the way to go. I have stumbled across more info, and found LC Engineering (seems to specialize in 20R and 22R engines, but has growing support for more modern Toyota engines as well). I am now leaning back towards the 3RZ, but am concerned about a couple of things, and havent found any answers yet. First off, the 3RZ is typically a truck engine, and has a DEEP front sump. I havent seen it yet, but I hear it is something like 12 inches. I would assume that with a number of V8's managing to get the sump behind the crossmember, I should be able to with the 3RZ... but I havent had a chance to measure either the engine or my clearance between cross-member and firewall.... any thoughts? Second, assuming it does clear... am I any better off? what has been a working limit here as far as oilpans lower than the cross member? High-centering gives me goosebumps (in a bad way) as it is... I dont want to tempt fate like that. Third, assuming I strike out with options one and two, what should I know about dry sumps? Is that a workable option in this scenario? What are the downsides to dry sumps in cars that see regular driving? From what I have seen, they are pretty obscenely expensive... but I have heard of DIY sumps as well..... obviously have some more reading to do here as well. Last, if anyone could recommend some appropriate links, I would appreciate it... I am having trouble finding people and sites with specific info.... Its all "4AEG for the win, yo" or debates over whether a CAI or a light weight flywheel are good for a bogger. Man, do we have it good here or what? lol Back to Google... tannji Edit: Here is something that looks to be a good alternative to a real dry sump, and considering exchange rates and the cost of a real dry sump setup, I think this is the way I would prefer to go: http://www.are.com.au/Billet%20Sumps/Nissan%20SR20%20sump.htm Just dont know if it would use a shorter pump.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tannji Posted January 6, 2006 Author Share Posted January 6, 2006 Couple more questions about this motor. One, this motor is a "square bore", 95mm stroke and bore. What does that mean for performance, or why is it desireable? I get the keep hearing from various posts that this is a good thing, but havent found out why yet. I have read about "oversquare" and "undersquare" engines as well, and understand how they differ, but am not sure what the implicit value of a square engine would be. I came away with the impression that generally the oversquare was the more desireable design, but every so often people refer to square favorably... any idea why? Next, the 3RZ has intake and exhaust on opposite sides of the engine, which right off the bat seems like a good thing from a modding and fabbing viewpoint, anyone have any input here? I would imagine that this makes plumbing (especially for the IC) easier, and would imagine that it is good to have the hot side separated from the intake, as well. Last, I found out that the deep sump on this engine was not always front, that center sump should be available as well. Assuming I could modify the pickup, is it feasible to shorten the sump and go with a cooler and/or remote filter to add oil capacity? Is the deep sump to achieve capacity, or to de-aereate the oil? I should have bookmarked some links last night, but I was fallling asleep and spaced it... apparently the lower end of this engine is VERY stout, and also has some relatively unusual tech in it, for a truck motor. In particular, the crank is the benificiary of Toyota's race tech, enough so that it s apparently $1600 to replace, instead of the $300 to $600 of many other cranks. The comments I remember specifically was that to the naked eye, the crank had a lot of balancing prep done to it that was out of the ordinary for a stock production piece. I just KNOW someone will eventually either have some input, or be interested enough to comment..... lol tannji Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 I'm interested in it enough to bite I believe the remarks of the toyota crank. Some toyota motors are way over built for what they ever did with it. The square bore issue is more of a charictaristic issue and anything else. A square bore means a fair balance between rev & liter. A large bore on a shorter stoke equals much higher reving ability under the same part specs. A stroke bias can produce gobs of low end power but aren't rev happy or able to rev high for any small cost. The main difference is piston speed. A 2" stroke can complete two cycles in the time it takes a 4" stroke to do one if both are traveling at the same speed. There are many other variable to consider when determine what you want to go with, but I think you have a fair grasp of what I'm saying. The fact that it's a corssflow head (intake and exhast on opposite sides) means it's already a whole lot better than the same head if it weren't corss flow. It doesn't mean it's great, it just means it's better to start with as that's something you won't be able to change. I'll be honest and say I don't know a ton about these heads in question but I doubt they're bad. I don't know much about dry sump systems other than I like the idea of them So if anyone wants to chime in I'll be in for the listening as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tannji Posted January 7, 2006 Author Share Posted January 7, 2006 thanks for the input! Ya, I kinda figured that the square bore was incidental, but the cross-flow struck me as very good to start with, as it was a bit of a problem on the L series, IMO. I read a post that appreared to be well grounded, and the guy was of the opinion that the heads on the 3RZ are merely adequate, in his words, "what you would expect on a cheap, small, mass-produced truck engine". had something to do with the chamber design, scissor gears, the balance shafts, ect... he was unimpressed, but it would seem that people are working around this readily enough. The more I learn about the motor, the more I want to play with it. Aftermarket is typically expensive, but I am running into things that are swappable from other series engines, such as connecting rods from the 1UZ, which are shorter and stronger, and apparently some people swap heads with the 2.4L 2RZ. I like the idea of improving the oiling system, but I think I will try to fab much of the stuff myself, as dry sumps, swing-arm oil pick-ups, and even the Accusump are not cheap. I talked to LCEngineering for a bit, (must say, I was was impressed with the attitude and knowledge there) and I want to over-engineer the engine a bit to make it durable and reliable, and shoot for 350 to 400 HP, with the ability to make significantly more, should I ever "need" it, lol. LC was of the opinion that I could run mostly stock lower (refreshed and massaged a bit) chromolly connecting rods, and turbo pistons, a little work on the heads, and the T3/4 hybrid @20lbs roughly, and have a 400hp daily driver that wouldnt stop. This would also give reasonably quick spool, and very nice torque across the rpm range. OR...... I could just slap a STS system in there and run 8's..... JK, lol = ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 You must know about my love of the sts sytems Now you know how I feel about the 1uz. The more I learn the more I just want to buy one and start fiddling with it. The 1uz rods are amazing for a production piece on a mere 200hp v8. The main weak link in the 1uz is the pistons, other than that the 1uz is the strongest 1us block/motor made. Lextreme did some good articles comparing the 3uz and 1uz parts that have the kind of information that's hard to come by. If the rods are really interchangable with the 3rz then you should read this stuff. http://www.lextreme.com/rods.html http://www.lextreme.com/mainbolts.html http://www.lextreme.com/3uzblock.html http://www.lextreme.com/3uzpiston.html If you read these articles you'll notice the 1uz is a much more bullettproof motor off the showroom exept for the pistons. I'd trust those connecting rods to pretty high HP numbers and replacements are cheep. And if you bought a $500 ebay 1uz that gives you spares . Lets see main brand manufactures make good rods for $65 a rod. 400hp seams like a reasonable mark to reach as long as the fuel system is well tuned and up to the task. I can't imagine the head being a HUGE limiter with force induction. As long as it's got a half decent chamber desgin you should be fine. But of course there are people here with WAY MORE knowledge about head design here than me. Now if only they'd chime in...... I'm having kinda the same problem with the 1uz though. Not much aftermarket support and what there is in support is expensive, probly due to the lack of competition. I don't know the smog laws in iowa but and upside to the 3rz is that you could smog it in CA if you decided to make it legal. (i don't know what year your car is) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tannji Posted January 7, 2006 Author Share Posted January 7, 2006 Ya, I dont think the smog will be an issue in Iowa, and I am probably moving to New Mexico soon, where I also dont think it will be an issue. I am thinking about doing the swap with a mild turbo conversion first... getting the feel for it, and then tearing it apart and shooting for a "final" config... having the crank treated, shot-peened, ect, using turbo pistons from LC, lightening them if possible, and going with a slightly shorter or lighter rod. The intake has to go, might make that the first priority, actually. I might talk to A.R.E. in OZ about that, he seems to have a handle on the intake and plenum, see if there is something I could fab myself. Same with exhaust, I would like to learn to make my own headers, start off with PVC, then mild steel, then stainless as I prove a design. On a completely unrelated note, I might actually sell off my 240, as it already has a complete and decently done SBC TPI conversion, but it has a large sunroof I would rather do without. If I find a roller in NM with typical lack of rust, I may very well do that, and start from scratch on a slightly better chassis so that I can jump right into merely refreshing it and improving suspension, rather than the complete strip and rotisserie job I was planning on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desert dog Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 Bring the 240z with you to NM... And I found the only rust-free 240Z I know of. It is in my garage... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tannji Posted January 7, 2006 Author Share Posted January 7, 2006 LOL... ya, but you are in the "big city" or NM's version, anyway... I will be out in the boonies, near the CO state line and Durango. I saw one for sale in Aztec that I almost bought just because.... looked to be a 240 with a L28 and tranny... fairly rough swap, but great otherwise. it was "powder-coated", where sun and oxidation have reduced the paint to powder that comes off under your fingernail, but other than door corners, saw no rust. I miss that climate, lol. I remember seeing quite a few Z's in Alb. when I was in high school, but I had no idea what they were, and thought the Z31 looked real cool. 6 years later I was in NY, and looking high and low for good bodies, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tannji Posted January 8, 2006 Author Share Posted January 8, 2006 OK, next question: The 3RZ gen 1 came with Distributor GenII was Twin coil DIS GenIII was Quad coil DIS GenIV was Quad coil DIS + VVT cam technology (163 HP - 183 TQ version) I think I will stay away from the VVT for now, I dont need the headache, maybe go back for a second look when everything else is sorted. I am not intimately familiar with DIS or EDIS, but I AM considering using Megasquirt. Any thoughts on which version I should be looking at and why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tannji Posted February 13, 2006 Author Share Posted February 13, 2006 Just got off the phone with Luis Corujo of Paradise Racing. (He took a Toy Corolla with 2RZ and ran 8.06 at 164 last year.) He says go with the 2RZ for the shorter stroke, and says that with a package including pistons, rods, valvetrain, ARP studs, gaskets, ect I am looking at $2300. Furthermore, while I am shooting for ~400HP, he ran his Outlaw(?) class car with this basic kit with no problems at ~900HP. He says to get the W58 tranny off an old Celica, Supra, or truck, (basically, pull a tranny off an older 20R or 22R motor) and it will already have the correct bellhousing, and should handle 400HP fine as a driver, and if it sees extensive track time, "Just keep a spare around". = ) Clutch, pressure plate, Lightened flywheel, ect will run $675. Would still need intake and exhaust mani's, which he has available, of course. Nice custom stuff too, not cobbed together log manifold. I mentioned that I wanted to do Megasquirt, but wasnt finding any info to go off of, and he knows of a couple guys over on CustomTacos that are starting MS&S installs, so that will be a good tech resource also. He is taking his motor to a new chassis, and is shooting for mid to low 7's, @~200mph this year. I think my goals fit this engine well, and still leave me a lot of room for over engineering for durability and reliability. A nice bonus is that he says he launches at about 7500rpm.... with 8000rpm as the redline. I wouldnt be pushing quite that hard, but I like having that as a capability, keeping in line with my desire to over-engineer. I was already leaning this way, but now I am sold. The 2/3RZ is an amazing little block, cant wait to start the conversion. http://www.paradiseracing.com/news.htm (some racing news and results from the Paradise Racing team) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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