DOH! Broke my tranny last night.

[HICKL]

I had recently put a larger cam and misc other performance stuff on my motor, finally got it tuned and first time I hammered on it 3rd gear broke! How much hp have you guys been able to put thru a T5 without this happening?

 

Jeff

[BillZ260]

THAT's not what i wanted to hear....

 

What are you runnig, as far as the engine set up and specifically which trans?

[Guest zfan]

T5's are wimpy, 300 ft. lb's torque max to be safe. Push it past that and they go poof!

 

Mike

[BRAAP]

Are you using a World Class T-5 or a Non W/C T-5? The World Class T-5 uses ATF for gear oil, the Non W/C T-5 uses regular gear oil.

The non world class T-5 is rated for 225 lbs of torque. The World Class T-5 is rated for 325 Lbs of torque. These rating given by the manufacture takes into account the very likely event of customer abuse, i.e. these trannies were installed in 3500 lb Camaros and the engineers knew it would be inevitable that some young teenagers will try to impress his buddies in the high school parking lot with foggy burnouts. Being as the Z car is lighter than the cars those T-5 came in, this puts a little less stress on the tranny under acceleration. Now add sticky tires and “stomp & dump” launches, and yes, the W/C T-5 will go BOOM, even with mild 300 ft/lbs torque from a lowly 305.

Here is my personal experience with the world Class T-5. I put approx 340 HP, 380+ lbs of torque through my World Class T-5 in my V-8 Z and abused it terribly for over 15,000 miles. My T-5 came from a ’91 Firebird. My Z ran consistent 12.3 @ 113 MPH, 0-60 MPH in 4.2 seconds launching in 2nd gear, all day with 60 foot times right at 2.0 seconds and with the welded diff would do burn outs from 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and then 4th, gear leaving over 100 yard long black stripes from both rear tires in 4th GEAR!!! That W/C T-5 tranny never gave me any trouble other than a broken 3-4 shift fork, not power related. Jim Biondo also ran a World Class T-5 in his monster V-8 Z, though his was modified with some Ford cluster gear etc, and he ran consistent 11’s in the ¼ @ 128 MPH with the A/C ON!!!

 

 

Power on over steer ROCKS!!!!!

[jap tin]

Time for a glide. That should ruffle some feathers.

[BRAAP]

2 speed slip & slide eh... That would be cool. How many V-8 Z guys here using a Glide in their street cars? Some of these cars have so much torque available over such a broad RPM range that a Glide with tall butt gears, say 2.53, actually makes some sense and it would be “light weight” as well…

[jap tin]

A light car with a lot of H.P. and a butt load of gear multiplication is trouble. I run a 1.89 first with a 4.86 rear gear and it gets out of the way very well. Low to High, pretty simple.

[Pyro]

There are T-5's made for 6 cylinders and 8 cylinders. The ones made for the V8's are rated at 300 ftlbs and the one made for the 6's are rated for about 250 ftlbs.

 

The 6 cylinder T5's uses the course input spline and the V8 T5 uses the fine splined input shaft. I forgot the spline count but it is something like 13 for the low torque T5 and 28 for the high torque T5.

 

World class and non-world class is just a matter of which year it was built. The world class uses a different style syncro and there is no difference in the torque holding strength between the two transmission. If fact, a T5 performance trans builder told me that he felt the NWC T5 was a little stronger. I forgot the year gm switched over to the WC t5 but it is around 1990.

 

I have used both and can't tell them apart. And I have used ATF in both transmissions.

 

The trick to making a T5 live behind big power is to not shock the transmission with clutch dumps, power shifts, and avoid full power 5th gear runs.

 

My T5 equiped V8 Z ran 11.7's at 120mph AND 10.7's at 135mph with a 175hp shot of N20 using MT drag slicks. The car also runs 1.5 second 0-60ft and 6.9 second 1/8 miles at 110 mph.

 

The above times were done using very slow stifts (like a school bus driver). And I use a brake line lock to hold the car still at the starting line while I take up slack in the drive line by letting out the clutch slightly before dumping the clutch at 5000 rpms. I know I said no clutch dumping but taking the slack out first really helps reduce the shock load.

[Guest zfan]

Thats pretty damn impressive with a T5.

 

Mike

[BRAAP]

There are T-5's made for 6 cylinders and 8 cylinders. The ones made for the V8's are rated at 300 ftlbs and the one made for the 6's are rated for about 250 ftlbs.

..........................

World class and non-world class is just a matter of which year it was built..............

The world class uses a different style syncro and there is no difference in the torque holding strength between the two transmission. If fact' date=' a T5 performance trans builder told me that he felt the NWC T5 was a little stronger. I forgot the year gm switched over to the WC t5 but it is around 1990..................

 

I have used both and can't tell them apart. And I have used ATF in both transmissions.

 

The trick to making a T5 live behind big power is to not shock the transmission with clutch dumps, power shifts, and avoid full power 5th gear runs.

 

My T5 equiped V8 Z ran 11.7's at 120mph AND 10.7's at 135mph with a 175hp shot of N20 using MT drag slicks. The car also runs 1.5 second 0-60ft and 6.9 second 1/8 miles at 110 mph.

 

The above times were done using very slow stifts (like a school bus driver). And I use a brake line lock to hold the car still at the starting line while I take up slack in the drive line by letting out the clutch slightly before dumping the clutch at 5000 rpms. I know I said no clutch dumping but taking the slack out first really helps reduce the shock load.[/quote']

 

 

 

I agree with your statement about how to make T-5 last, even getting quick drag times is doable without shock loading the tranny too much as you have proven with your incredible ¼ mile times using the T-5. 10.7 @ 135!! WOW! That is very impressive indeed. Good work.

 

But I do disagree with your comparison of the two trannies. There are other internal differences between the World Class and Non world class T-5s other than just the synchros. Borg Warner built the W/C and Non W/C at the same time and GM offered them in the same cars for the same years, what determined which received the W/C vs the Non W/C was whether it was a V-8 or not within the years the W/C was available for GM cars. The only GM cars to receive the W/C T-5 was the Pontiac Firebird and Camaro with the 305, I’m not for sure what year the W/C was first available, but around ‘88 sounds right, (before that the V-8 5 speed was the Non W/C), and they were ditched in favor the T-56 I think in ’92, I may be off on the years. All the V-6 F-bodies, S-10 and S-15 trucks, all received the Non W/C no matter what year, before and after the W/C stint in the V-8 cars.

Yes the synchros are different. The World Class uses a composite synchro, (kind of a Paper synchro), hence the need for ATF vs standard gear lube. Yes you could use ATF in either tranny, though not sure what type of synchro wear would be induced on the Non W/C, maybe non. But do NOT run regular gear lube ina W/C T-5. you will know immediately that you made a mistake as the shifter will feel like it is binding as you traverse from gear to gear and the gears will grind. Also, the gears in the W/C tranny are made from a stronger alloy than the Non W/C. Also, the bearings used inside the two trannies is different. W/C received actual Timken bearings, Non W/C didn’t and those Timken bearings are supposed to be a lot tougher. In fact, if you look at the bell housing end of the tranny looking at the input shaft, you can see the exterior bearing races, and if you look at the World Class and Non W/C side by side, you can very easily make out these distinct differences in the bearings.

One more item that gives the W/C a higher torque rating is the closer ratio spread, i.e. a taller 1st gear which has less torque multiplication over all. ALL GM versions of the W/C T-5’s have the 2.95 1st gear, 1.94 2nd gear. The Non world class trannies use deeper gears with wider spread, I think the tallest first gear in any of the Non W/C T-5 is 3.24, though I may be wrong on that point. No idea how what the Ford or Jeep versions are like, sorry.

Any how, the point I’m making here is that there "IS" a significant difference in the construction of the W/C vs the Non W/C T-5's.

If you go to any supposed shop that says the OE Non W/C is a tougher tranny than the W/C, uh, just turn around and walk out… A Non W/C might have the ability to be built as tough or even tougher than an OE W/C, but OE vs OE, they are different trannies internally, period!

[HICKL]

Mine is a non WC t5, I tore into it last night and it just simply broke the teeth off of 3rg gear and of course the opposing gear on the cluster. Does any sell stronger gears for this thing? I went to G-force's web site and they don't do it anymore.

 

Hey Bill, as far as my engine setup, 350, dart sportsman II heads, comp cams xe274h-10, torker II intake, holley 600 carb. Est hp to be around 350, hopefully 375 or more but just got it running good enough to test with this engine setup and the first time I hammered on it this happened.

[BRAAP]

Mine is a non WC t5' date=' I tore into it last night and it just simply broke the teeth off of 3rg gear and of course the opposing gear on the cluster. ..........

Does any sell stronger gears for this thing? I went to G-force's web site and they don't do it anymore.[/quote']

 

YES! There upgrade parts available for your T-5.

D&D performance is a T-5 specialty shop and they do sell upgrade parts for the T-5. Just go to their web site and browse the T-5 goodies… In fact, one of their upgrades for the Non W/C T-5 is to replace the 2nd and 3rd gears and the cluster with the upgraded alloy gears that came standard in the W/C T-5, (apparently your 3rd gear failure is common for the Non W/C), I bought my 3-4 shift fork from them back in ’98 and if memory severs, I also bought my Borg Warner W/C T-5 rebuild manual from them at the same time. That was back in ’98, and the actual “Borg Warner” rebuild manuals were hard to come by then, who knows if you can even find them now.

Any how these guys seem to be pretty sharp in regards to T-5 trannies…

 

 

http://www.ddperformance.com/

[Dp351zcar]

I just bought a 2.95 gear kit for my T5 a W/C SVO(turbo 4cyl ford) box from Hanlon motorsports. The 2.95 kit has the upgradded gears for the T5. They are very good people to work with and get stuff out fast. They also have the Gforce stuff to sell so you don't have to deal with Gforce yourself. I just checked and Gforce has their T5 web site up with prices and all.

 

I had a question that his wife (daytime order taker) could not answer and Bob Hanlon called me at home at 7:30pm my time(3 hours earlier than his) to answer it. We talked for 20 mins and he was not hurried or rushed even though he still had a T45 to tear apart.

 

Don

[HICKL]

Hey Braaap! I stumbled upon the D&D website while browsing the web. I promptly called the number and the guy whe answered the phone told me that they do not deal with GM T5's at all, only fords and that he recommends to anyone that has a non WC T5 to throw it away. I replied with a sarcastic "thanks for all your help" and that was it.

 

Confused...

[Pyro]

Well I did some web seaches and came up with the following answers.

1) When talking about GM t5's it is very important to distigust between the V6 trans and V8 trans. V8 has the higher spline count and hold more torque.

 

2) WC cane out in 1988. And I didn't find any difference in torwue capacity between the two styles

 

3) all T5's use ATF (WC or NWC)

 

Check out the sites below and information below.

 

 

 

http://www.442.com/oldsfaq/oftrn.htm

 

There are two distinct GM T-5 trannys - one used behind low output 6's and the other used behind 8's. The one for a 6 is rated @ 240 ft-lb and the 8 @ 300 ft-lbs. of torque. Identifiable difference is the input shaft, 14 splines on 6 cyl. version, 28 splines on 8 cyl.

 

1988 and newer Camaro 5-speeds are called "World Class" T-5's w/ improved bearings, paper cone syncros, and use Dextron 2 ATF. The Camaro bellhousing includes a hydraulic thowout which makes it very simple to hook up, but the b/h also tilts the tranny at an angle of about 10 degrees. This can be a benefit or a curse depending on the application.

 

 

 

 

http://garage-scene.home.att.net/t5_install.htm

 

ll GM T5s (1983-1992), except T body (Chevette), have a standard GM bellhousing bolt pattern. All Ford T5s have a bellhousing bolt pattern that looks similar to that of a Top Loader, though it is different.

 

All 1983-1992 GM V8 T5s have a 26-spline ´ 11/8-inch input shaft, a 2.95:1 first gear ratio, and a standard GM bellhousing bolt pattern. All Ford T5s have a 10-spline ´ 11/16-inch input shaft.

 

GM V6 and 4-cylinder T5s have a 14-spline ´ 1-inch input shaft, either a 3.50:1, 3.76:1, or 4.03:1 first gear ratio, and a standard GM bellhousing bolt pattern. Avoid these transmissions for V8 applications; they are weaker than the V8 transmissions. There is no 10.5-inch clutch disc available for this transmission, only a 95/8- and an 11-inch disc.

 

Beginning in 1993, there was no T5 available with the GM V8. All fourth generation F body T5s have a Ford T5 bellhousing bolt pattern (Figure 22-3). The 26-spline ´ 11/8-inch input shaft is similar to the earlier V8 input shaft, but the pilot is longer than that used in the earlier models (Figure 22-4). The front bearing retainer is the same as used on the 1983-1992 GM T5.

 

All GM T5s manufactured from 1983-1987 were of the Non-World Class design. From 1988-1992, all GM F body V6 and V8 T5s were of the World Class design, but T5s designed for the other GM vehicles, such as the S10 truck, were still of the Non-World Class design.

 

 

 

http://www.foureyedpride.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13309

 

Question:

Hey hey. My new shifter is coming in today. I know the fluid is low in my t5 as it had been leaking from the speedo gear. I fixed that but i need to fill it. I thought when i have the shifter off would be a very good time to do this. I know some of the later t5's take ATF but have never been able to get an answer on when this started. Does my 83 take gear oil or ATF ?

 

Reply:

Regular T-5 = gear oil

World Class T-5 = ATF

 

Reply:

Intresting Fox. Because my 1983 Ford Shop supliment (which overviews the rebuild procedures for 2.3EFI Turbo and T-5's) states that it uses 2.4Liters of Dexron II fluid which is an ATF. I have always heard that ANY T5 requires the use of ATF. Seeing as my shop manual was written to specificaly cover the T5 (which was new for 1983) i would tend to belive it.

[HICKL]

The guy that built my T5 originally who is a performance mustang expert thus very well versed in the T5 tranny told me to use royal purple's "Synchromax" (I think that is what it was called) I drove it (hammered on it) for at least 2 years and when it pulled it out for the broken gear, everything else looked great.

 

Just my 1 cents.

[BRAAP]

Well I did some web seaches and came up with the following answers.

1) When talking about GM t5's it is very important to distigust between the V6 trans and V8 trans. V8 has the higher spline count and hold more torque.

 

2) WC cane out in 1988. And I didn't find any difference in torwue capacity between the two styles

 

3) all T5's use ATF (WC or NWC)

 

Check out the sites below and information below.

 

http://www.442.com/oldsfaq/oftrn.htm

 

There are two distinct GM T-5 trannys - one used behind low output 6's and the other used behind 8's. The one for a 6 is rated @ 240 ft-lb and the 8 @ 300 ft-lbs. of torque. Identifiable difference is the input shaft' date=' 14 splines on 6 cyl. version, 28 splines on 8 cyl.

 

1988 and newer Camaro 5-speeds are called "World Class" T-5's w/ improved bearings, paper cone syncros, and use Dextron 2 ATF. The Camaro bellhousing includes a hydraulic thowout which makes it very simple to hook up, but the b/h also tilts the tranny at an angle of about 10 degrees. This can be a benefit or a curse depending on the application.

 

................

 

Question:

Hey hey. My new shifter is coming in today. I know the fluid is low in my t5 as it had been leaking from the speedo gear...... Does my 83 take gear oil or ATF ?

 

Reply:

Regular T-5 = gear oil

World Class T-5 = ATF

 

Reply:

Intresting Fox. Because my 1983 Ford Shop supliment (which overviews the rebuild procedures for 2.3EFI Turbo and T-5's) states that it uses 2.4Liters of Dexron II fluid which is an ATF. I have always heard that ANY T5 requires the use of ATF. Seeing as my shop manual was written to specificaly cover the T5 (which was new for 1983) i would tend to belive it.[/quote']

 

 

 

Excellent post explaining the detailed differences in the trannies. Thank you. In fact, all this T-5 info you presented probably be put into a Sticky?

 

Again, thank you for the great info on the T-5.

[BRAAP]

Hey Braaap! I stumbled upon the D&D website while browsing the web. I promptly called the number and the guy whe answered the phone told me that they do not deal with GM T5's at all' date=' only fords and that he recommends to anyone that has a non WC T5 to throw it away. I replied with a sarcastic "thanks for all your help" and that was it.

 

Confused...[/quote']

 

 

Sorry bout that. They were helpful back in ’98 and I just assumed they would still be of help today. It appears the Hanlon is your best choice. I haven’t dealt with them directly, but I have heard good things about them.

Again, I apologize for getting your hopes up with D&D.

[HICKL]

No problem Braap, thanks for the attempt. I'll probably call them again, may have just got the wrong guy on the phone.

 

Jeff

[Dp351zcar]

The web site for Hanlon motorsports is http://www.Hanlonmotorsports.com they are good people and the T5 rebuild video is great. Well worth it if you are going to do it your self.

 

Don