OlderThanMe Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 wow I never realized how big bumpstops were for a Z since my Z doesn't have them and never bottoms out even with the stock springs...now I am doing coilovers with 225f/250r springs and about to order illuminas. I wonder if I will need those monstrosity of bumpstops...or if I can make my own... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastzcars Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 Yup, I'm with BlueOvalz on this. Although you can gain some travel back from cutting the bumpstops in half. That should give you 1 to 1 1/2 inches back. That will help with the ride quality, but it won't help you on the lowering to help the look of the car. If you want to keep the tires, section the struttubes. If you don't want to redo the suspension, then replace the tire's for taller ones to fill in the gap. On one more thing. do you have the part numbers for the struts. at least that way we can tell if you need to buy new, shorter ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 Sectioning the struts will give you 1.5" and going with 240 insulators would give you another inch. At that point you'd still have less than 1/2 the travel. Cut the bumpstop down, another 3/4 to 1". Going with camber plates instead of 240 insulators is going to give you 1.5 inches. That will mean that at the same height you're currently at you'll have most of your travel back. You can do any combination of these things, the sectioning of the struts will require new front inserts, and obviously you'd have to buy camber plates or 240 insulators. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 well... I measured the upper mounts... The 280Z insulators are ~3 3/4" from spring perch to upper mounting surface... The 240Z insulators are 2 3/4" from perch to mounting surface... The EMI camber plates are 1 3/4" from perch to mounting surface... The EMI plates require no cutting of the upper towers... and they will drop your car 2" from where it is now... giving you plenty of room for suspension travel... The EMI plates can also give you some added caster... EDIT: your struts will not compress all the way into their housings.... usually there is about an inch of strut rod showing with them bottomed out... It looks like your spring perches will hit the gland nut before the cartridge actually bottoms out... the EMI plates will lower the car but they also leave more of the strut rod exposed below the perch... so you may lower the car but still have an issue with the strut cartridges bottoming out... on the other hand... I am using cut struts with shorter inserts... With the car set at streetable height I have virtually no droop.. which is equally bad... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
280Bob Posted March 27, 2006 Author Share Posted March 27, 2006 The first photo is after I set the zip tie against the gland nut then lowered the car to set the zip tie to check the travel. I took the picture after jacking the car back up to see how far the zip tie had moved. After I installed the coilovers I saw that there is almost no travel left in the front struts. This is why I was wondering if others with a 280Z had experienced the same problem. I don't think that there is anything to do other than pull the struts off and section them. The struts that I ordered were the BZ3012 and BZ3013 I believe. I think I will be able to reuse the back because they use a spacer at the bottom. I am just frustrated at the time and money (wasted on the front struts) I have spent only to have to redo it all. What makes it more frustrating is that I did ask if I needed to section before installing the coilovers. I was told by Ross that most people do not need to section. I want to know if this is true. It seems to me that if you do not section then you are losing all adjustability of the coilovers unless you wanted your car to look like a baja racer...I didn't want a lift kit. If I am wrong then I am very sorry, but, it just hurts when you have limited time and money and you are counting on being told correct information by the products vendor. By the way, I did email Ross as soon as I saw this problem. I didn't recieve much advice other than being told that my car is at stock ride height. My original question to Ross was that I didn't want to section if I didn't have to as I was not looking for the car to be slammed. A nice 1.5 to 2" drop from stock would be fine...after all I was ordering these for the adjustability not the drop. I just think that it is ridiculous to tell someone that the product will do that and not to worry about strut sectioning. First, it doesn't appear to drop the car at all. Second, just to get the car to stock height the collars have to be bottomed out. Where is the adjustability that I paid for? I went with the recommended 10" springs as well... Sorry for the long rant but I am very frustrated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 You have to figure that your car was probably sagged somewhat to start with. You put this kit on thinking you would lower the car, but it actually lifted it to what was a "proper" ride height. Then you wanted it to look lower than it was with the sagged out springs. Plus you put a lower profile tire on, and to get that to look right with tire to fender gaps you need it lower still. So it's not the coilovers' fault and it's not Ross's fault. It's your "fault" for wanting the car that low, if you want to call that fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobraz240z Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 try puttin the early 240z strut tops i think those should lowerit 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
280Bob Posted March 27, 2006 Author Share Posted March 27, 2006 First, I did not say that it is Ross's fault that the car is not lowered. You are right it is my "fault" for wanting my car to look lowered a little from stock. However, I do believe that if you are going to charge the kind of money that Ross charges for his coilovers than it is not too much to ask that he provide correct and appropriate advice. Not everyone who orders his parts are suspension experts, this is why I contacted him in the first place. Also, my car did not have "sagged out" springs on it this is why I said that it did not lower it at all. I would not have a problem if my car rode at normal ride height and still had adjustability in the coilovers. Yes, I would be a little disappointed in the look but would not be frustrated with the information provided to me. Are you telling me that I should not be frustrated at recieving what is clearly wrong information from the person I purchased the product from? I am sorry but I believe that a person ordering this product for their 280Z should be told that it is at stock ride height with the collar bottomed out. How is it my fault when I contacted the vendor and asked up front if he would recommend sectioning my struts? Would you not recommend sectioning? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 This is a common problem... I have mocked up and taken measurements from several different uppermount options to arrive at what I think is best for my track 240Z... choosing the right upper mounts is critical to setting up your suspension for it's intended use. I am using sectioned housings for my current buildup... but sectioned struts will make it hard to get proper ride height for street use without loosing all of your suspension droop... ie. sectioned struts can be too short for street use.. You can use what you have... you just need to get the right uppermounts... by changing the uppermounts you can get as much as 2" lower than your current set up without loosing anymore strut travel... I am assuming that you don't want the car much lower than it is now... you can change upper mounts and then raise the bottom spring perches.. thereby increasing the amount of strut travel available... Buy the EMI camber plates.... This should give you the proper ride height with plenty of strut travel... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 I am posting pictures to show you what I am talking about... remember stock 280Z mounts.. 3 3/4" thick stock 240Z mounts.. 2 3/4" thick EMI camber plates... 1 3/4" thick... you will get 2" more travel at the same ride height by switching to EMI camber plates and readjusting the bottom perches... pics soon.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 I'm not trying to get in an argument with you, so don't take it that way. Trying to help here. Unless something in Ross's kit increases the length of the strut from the gland nut to the top, and I'm not aware of anything in his kit that would do this, his kit didn't raise your car. With regards to the sagged out springs, I thought you said before that the car was at the same ride height before as now, and now you have the spring perches adjusted all the way down. The only way that happens is if the stock springs were cut or the springs were sagged. To put it another way. The car should ride with the strut about in the middle 1/3 of its travel. Regardless of the springs and the coilovers, if the car is at the same ride height it was previously, then it should be riding in about the same position on the strut that it was previously. If that is with 1/2" to the bump stop, then your previous springs were either cut or sagged, because NORMAL ride height would be with the strut in the middle 1/3 of its travel, and you clearly aren't there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastzcars Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 I'm going to have to take back some of the advise that I gave previouslly. I think BJhines has got the best solution for you. EMI or DP racing camber plate's would be a great solution. They would lower your car down 2 inches and then you could crank up the coil perch up if it's too low. That and the cutting of the bump stops will help. Obviously the car is lower than stock just from the pictures of the lack of travel left on the stock length struts. Any car with smaller diameter tires will look like a 4x4 at stock hights. Did you tell ross the tire size that you would be using? Did you tell him that you wanted it to be only "slightly lower than stock"? For ANYONE to give advise, you have to give ALL the information you can give them. Now don't get me wrong I'm not siding on your or ross's side. I'm just saying that we don't know what information was exchanged. Just mark this down as a learning experience. Now you know more about suspension than when you started the project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 J mortenson... The adaptor that is used to fit the coilover upper perch into the upper mount makes it considerably thicker than the stock set up... In other words.. the stack height of the stock mount+perch is almost a half inch shorter than the stack height of the stock mount+adaptor+coilover perch... In other words... he has >4" stack height with the stock 280Z uppermount+adaptor+coilover upper perch... this would cause the problem he is having.. even though he is using stock length strut cartridges... He needs to get rid of that THICK stack of adapted junk and get simple camber plates.. I think the EMI plates are his best choice.. he can change camber AND caster... and they require no alteration of the stock strut towers to install... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 on another note.. if he wants rubber upper mounts... he can remove the bearing spacer and hogg out the rubber inside the mount so that the coilover upper perch will fit further up inside the mount.. making the stack shorter... also changing to 240Z mounts will give another inch... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastzcars Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 Sorry I don't have EMI's website but heres DP racing parts.http://www.designproductsracing.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=513. I think JohnC sells EMI products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
280Bob Posted March 27, 2006 Author Share Posted March 27, 2006 Look, I do appreciate the help and I don't want this to turn into a huge argument over the quality of the product. I never questioned the quality of the product mearly the information provided with that product. Obviously the kit is not to blame. I just don't understand how someone can honestly say that the coilovers are usable in this configuration. I know that I can take everything apart and modify things to make it better. I said that I was frustrated because I feel like this is something I could and should have been told upfront...I still would have purchased the product but with better instruction and information would be posting pictures of a successful installation. I am sorry if all of this seems trivial to some of you, but some of us are inexperienced and take the advice given to us to heart. I am only frustrated...I am not saying the product is bad or at fault. I will try to track down some different top mounts to see if that will help as I cannot afford camber plates right now. It looks like I will also need to lower the sleeve if I want to be able to gain some adjustability. Thanks for everyones help, and any more advice is always welcome. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 You may not need to lower the sleeves... like we are saying... you can get close to 2" lower with 240Z mounts modified to fit the upper coilover perches deep inside them. EMI and DP plates are the same basic design... lots of adjustability with little or no modification of the strut towers and relatively short stack height... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 In other words.. the stack height of the stock mount+perch is almost a half inch shorter than the stack height of the stock mount+adaptor+coilover perch... So that would raise the car 1/2". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
280Bob Posted March 27, 2006 Author Share Posted March 27, 2006 fastzcars, I did give all of the information that Ross requested. I don't think my problem is being caused by my tire size. I realize that the tire size is slightly smaller than stock. I was very thorough in answering all of his questions because I wanted to get it right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastzcars Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 No problem 280Bob. we're just tryin to help you out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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