Frame Rail Repair

[Drax240z]

I need to go get my frame rails fixed. Bleh. Had a little mishap on the way to work this morning, and ended up hitting the curb head on in my 73 240z... Big bump, started right up after and drove the remaining 100yards to work...

 

Anyway, I was eyeing the car later, and I noticed that the drivers side front was sitting a bit lower than the passanger side. A quick inspection confirmed that my drivers side frame rail cracked and twisted. (uh, due to rust, go figure) It split where the strut tower/inner fender meets the rail and also where the lower control arm support meets the rail.

 

Going to get this looked at tomorrow, I just don't have the time to fix it myself right now. Does anyone have a guess/knowledge on what a new frame rail fabricated and installed should cost me? Anything else to have done at the same time? Thanks in advance.

 

 

 

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Drax240z

1973 240z - L28TURBO transplant on the way!

http://members.xoom.com/r_lewis/datsun.html

[Drax240z]

Well not much of a thread, but I might as well update it. Both the frame shop I took it to and the body shop were reluctant to do anything to it. The bodyshop quoted me 16 hours of labour per side, with the understanding that if they were to do it, you'd not be able to tell it from factory afterwards. The owner suggested that if I was at all inclined, that I should do it myself... and so I plan on it.

 

It'll be a month before I do it, and I am going to limp around in the car as little as possible until then. I am not sure if I will go tube front end or go with pete's setup. 2.5" sq box steel, etc. Any thoughts?

 

 

 

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Drax240z

1973 240z - L28TURBO transplant on the way!

http://members.xoom.com/r_lewis/datsun.html

[BLKMGK]

Whereabouts are you located? I've seen at least one shop on the 'net that specializes in this repair "while you wait" and there's a shop local to me in VA that claims to do this work to - Datsun Power I think is their name.

 

If you're going to do it yourself what's the time frame you want it done in? Doing a full tube front end would be lighter and certainly tricker but do you want to spend all that effort doing it? The boxed front end would probably be pretty darned strong, probably stronger than stock, how long would that take? What's most important to you?

 

A real bummer that this happened to you, I'd be willing to bet that there's rust hiding in just about everyone's frame rails (sigh)...

[Guest Anonymous]

BLKMGK - Where is the shop you mention, I am in Blacksurg and need this work also. Thanks much for any info.

[Guest scca]

be careful in doing this welding. this isnt for the "beginner " welder either.

it would take close to 16 hours perside to do and it would easily be spotted that it has been repaired no body shop can make a framerail undetectable from a repair. - well maybe if theyre working on a ferrari.

and then there would be 20 hours in grinding the welds and leading them to hide them.

replacing the frame rails as a side involves removing the engine and the entire interior. USUALLY this means new floorboards as well so if its that rusty then use square tube and do it better or find a rust free shell for less than you could repair yours. when the TC (bottom strut tube bar is called a Tension compression bar for those that dont know TC) mount starts to show signs of cracking there is alot of structural damage to repair.

we've built a frame in the past to replace the stock frame rails and is all boxed in- it was originally done for a V8 car.

build a full front frame from 2.5" sq tube that would be the best choice. i have pics of the frame somewhere - would have to dig them out.

[BLKMGK]

Datsun Power is in Sterling VA out near me - Tysons area sort of. It's a bit of a haul to say the least. I've also got no idea as to the quality of their work or the prices they charge. I would suggest you contact the Virginia Z club and ask for refrences. I'd also heed what Mike said about the repair, remember just how ugly it could be if this isn't done right.

 

I sure hope I never hit anything in my car!

[Guest Anonymous]

I found Datsun "Dynamics" in Vienna, VA. They said $300 - 1500 depending on the rot. The engine stays in and they keep part of the old rail to keep it straight. I think I'll try them since they have experience (he said they're working on two now). Not an advertisment - I'm trying to sell myself on the idea. Any other VA suggestions?

[BLKMGK]

Honestly? Speak to Mike Kelly about this. He's been into Zs for years and I'm still learning a great deal about them. He's local to us and likely knws lot's of places I don't. I'd also say again that you shoudl contact the local VA Z club -> http://www.zcarclubnova.org/

 

Lot's of information there I'd bet and they could rate local shops FAR better than I could - I've never used one for my Z....

[Guest Anonymous]

Honestly - here is the response from the VA club. THANKS FOR YOUR INPUT!

John,

I think datsun Dynamics is primarily into mechanical work rather

than body work. Their phone number is 703-759-4610.

 

I talked to another 280Z owner who had his frame rails done a few

years ago by a place called AC Restorations in Beltsville, MD. He said

they did a really terrific job. I don't have a phone number but I'll

see if I can find a Maryland phone book.

[Okimoto]

Hello, did a few searches on the frame rail damage and found this thread.

I have my car on jackstands now... and I believe my frame is damaged in quite the same way as drax's is.

 

Basically, at one time before I got my 240z, the car was in an accident bad enough to rip the compression bracket off the frame, as well as crack the frame behind the front crossmember.

 

Last week, I found a growing crack in an area above the somewhat damaged looking original old weld on the frame, appearing to be at least an inch and growing.

 

I'm thinking about using some welding rods and repairing it myself. I welded only once before, and that was at the hybridz meet at a shop in La Habra, with pizza.

 

My grandfather left me a 100 amp stick welder and some random rods. He was a welder for a living, but I didn't bother asking him when he was alive like I should have.

 

How would I go about testing the quality of my welds after I try welding the frame back together? This will be my first real weld job. (I welded a steel secuity door but it broke a few days later so I'm concerned about the weld being strong) I'm thinking if I weld this... then release the jack suddenly as to drop the car on a brick of some sort, I will be able to test the strength of the weld as if in real life conditions.

 

I heard that using old rods can be a bad thing, so I'm going to go to the hardware store and find some rods for steel there.

 

any tips will be appreciated.

[jt1]

Frame repair work is best done with a mig welder. The sheetmetal is thin, and a stick welder puts a good bit of heat into the work, so what happens is you burn a big hole in what you're working on. If you want to give it a try, find some metal the same thickness as your car, then practice on the scrap a while. You'll see what I mean.

 

If you were at a shop in La Habra, it might have been Johnc's. He runs a welding shop there. You might PM him.

 

John

[Drax240z]

Jesus Christ, I can't believe it was only 5 years ago that I wrote that. I guess I've come a long way since then.

 

Honestly in the end I ended up parting out the car and finding a rust free shell to deal with. Best move I ever made on that project, and I'm still driving the car today for that reason. Knowing what I know now (and having done this repair to other Z's 3 or 4 times now) it is rarely worth the trouble unless the Z is exceptional otherwise.

 

There is no way you want to tackle this job with a stick welder, you need MIG and we're not talking flux cored here. Even then if you don't know what you are doing you're better off finding someone that does to help you out.

 

This job is in the area of 30 hours work to do correctly, both sides. This includes removing the engine, (trust me, you could do it around the engine but it will take twice as long) front suspension, and aligning the car perfectly on a jig. The actual fabrication portion is probably about 10 hours for both sides. Throw in finishing, paint and reinstall and it can add up fast.

 

Another thing I've done that worked out well was to graft a complete front end onto a damaged car from the firewall forward. There are caveats for sure, but it can work very nicely as you put the seam in a spot where it is hard to see.

 

Anyway, not recommended unless you have a) the right tools, boatloads of time, and c) someone knowledgeable that can show you the way.

[johnc]

If you were at a shop in La Habra, it might have been Johnc's. He runs a welding shop there. You might PM him.

 

Yup, I hosted a meeting here and talked about welding and let people try it temselves. Rick Johnson also talked about measuring and reducing NVH in our cars.

 

Okimoto, let me know if you need help with this.

[jt1]

Let's give Okimoto a big attaboy for searching, bringing up an old thread, and adding info to the thread. I didn't notice this was your second post, good job.

 

[search nazi jt]

[Okimoto]

Yup' date=' I hosted a meeting here and talked about welding and let people try it temselves. Rick Johnson also talked about measuring and reducing NVH in our cars.

 

Okimoto, let me know if you need help with this.[/quote']

 

Yeah, I believe it was at beta motorsports, in La Habra. There was free pizza and soda. And there were some very knowledgable people there that totally blew my head off in terms of technical knowledge.

 

 

 

I could probably use some help with this. I'm going to try and get some pictures of the frame damage this weekend to post here.

 

As for the part thats damaged, it's not the thin sheet metal part, from what I see of it, it looks thick and beefy... the crack is very close to the engine crossmember.

 

The stick Welder I have is adjustable too, from 0 to 100 amps. And a friend told me duty cycle is important, so i should mention it says 100% duty cycle.

 

 

So given the above information: if stick welders produce the most heat, and I remember seeing a truck that said "heat treated frame", then the heat generated from the stick welder should be good for the frame, right? Such as tempering? So when I weld that crack in the frame at 100 amps or so, and melt the stick into there... it will be a very good weld, in theory because of the heat generated?

 

 

To be honest, I would rather keep the shell. I know it shouldn't make a difference, but it's #1331 off the line. Besides, it was free. Any money invested, (so far about 100 for my homemade wiring harness) is only a small investment in a great car.

[Supra510]

Trying to stick weld sheet metal with an arc welder, especially Datsun stuff is pretty much impossible. You'd be better off getting a second job for a month and buying a cheap MIG than messing with an arc welder for this. The problem with the heat is that you will constantly burn through the weld area putting holes where you want a weld. My first welding experience was doing what you're thinking of doing and it was frustrating, ugly, and time consuming to say the least.

 

Anthony

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/674663

[Pop N Wood]

So given the above information: if stick welders produce the most heat, and I remember seeing a truck that said "heat treated frame", then the heat generated from the stick welder should be good for the frame, right? Such as tempering?

 

They put that label on the frame to warn people to NOT heat or otherwise weld the frame without following very specific procedures. Welding or heating the piece in one area changes the tempering creating the risk of catastrpohic failure of the piece.

[AK-Z]

a mig welder at costco is like $185. Heat treating is where they temper the whole peice not just on one spot. If you heat treat on one spot you are going to cause a irregularity on the density of the metal causing one spot to be harder or softer then the surrounding metal which could cause cracks.

 

the metal being harder is not always a good thing. harder metals don't give and bend as much as softer metals. Once a harder metal reaches its tensil strenghth its cracks or fractures.

 

I wouldn't use a arc welder on any car. I would only use it on heaver duty truck chassies and nothing else on automotive stuff. anything you're arc welding that is less then 1/4 inche thick is pointless.

[AK-Z]

Jesus Christ' date=' I can't believe it was only 5 years ago that I wrote that. I guess I've come a long way since then.

 

Honestly in the end I ended up parting out the car and finding a rust free shell to deal with. Best move I ever made on that project, and I'm still driving the car today for that reason. Knowing what I know now (and having done this repair to other Z's 3 or 4 times now) it is rarely worth the trouble unless the Z is exceptional otherwise.

 

There is no way you want to tackle this job with a stick welder, you need MIG and we're not talking flux cored here. Even then if you don't know what you are doing you're better off finding someone that does to help you out.

 

This job is in the area of 30 hours work to do correctly, both sides. This includes removing the engine, (trust me, you could do it around the engine but it will take twice as long) front suspension, and aligning the car perfectly on a jig. The actual fabrication portion is probably about 10 hours for both sides. Throw in finishing, paint and reinstall and it can add up fast.

 

Another thing I've done that worked out well was to graft a complete front end onto a damaged car from the firewall forward. There are caveats for sure, but it can work very nicely as you put the seam in a spot where it is hard to see.

 

Anyway, not recommended unless you have a) the right tools, boatloads of time, and c) someone knowledgeable that can show you the way.[/quote']

 

Do you have pics of where you graphed the front end onto the firewall of the car? I have 2 280zs and the front half of one car is in better condition than the back half of the other and vice versa.

[Drax240z]

Sadly I don't have pics from that build. I am not sure why now that I think about it, other than it happened over a very short period of time and I didn't have a camera at the time, apparently I didn't borrow one either. It is NOT for the faint of heart. If you are going to attempt it get the S30 chassis manual with all the chassis dimensions in it and build yourself a solid, level jig out of I beam or large square tubing.