Guest Anonymous Posted November 6, 2000 Share Posted November 6, 2000 Opinions on them? Good bad or ugly? JT says someone here has one... does it fit snugly in the body? Comments? ------------------ Morgan http://z31.com/~morgan/s30 http://carfiche.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted November 6, 2000 Share Posted November 6, 2000 Morgan, I have the kit (not installed yet). It doesn't fit very tight to the sides (the main hoop), and it's not easy to find a good way to put it in if you want to keep the stock seatbelt retractors. Search the Chassis forum, and others, as this has had alot of discussion. I seem to remember there was another kit that was better, but I don't remember the particulars. I think the S&W is better than the Autopower rollbar though, as that thing bolts to the thin inner fenders, which doesn't do much for stiffening the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 6, 2000 Share Posted November 6, 2000 Ah. I'm not worried about the seatbelts and what not, I'm more concerned with how tight it fits to the doors and A pillars. Stuff in the back of the car is out of sight, and thus out of my way ------------------ Morgan http://z31.com/~morgan/s30 http://carfiche.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted November 6, 2000 Share Posted November 6, 2000 Andrew Bayley wrote up his experiences about putting his S&W 8 point cage in at: http://24.4.88.29/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000120.html But this 8-point doesn't have A-pillar tubes, just door bars forward of the main hoop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 6, 2000 Share Posted November 6, 2000 So I guess I'm probably just gonna cut-n-grind the cage to fit myself and then take it somewhere to have it welded by a competent welder(ie. not me!). Anyone got their extra door bars for the princley sum of $40? Is it just another pair of bars that go in the door to form an X? ------------------ Morgan http://z31.com/~morgan/s30 http://carfiche.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 6, 2000 Share Posted November 6, 2000 Yikes!!!!!! Reading through some old messages here on s&w stuff, it seems that their cage is welded tubing, not seamless? Is that safe? No wonder it's so cheap! Anyone wrecked a car with a s&w cage or bar in it? Anyone know anything about the autopower u-weld-it cage? As expensive as it is it should be seamless tubing I would think..... ------------------ Morgan http://z31.com/~morgan/s30 http://carfiche.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Bayley Posted November 6, 2000 Share Posted November 6, 2000 Thanks for the reference Pete: To clear up any confusion, The S&W cage kit is NOT a bolt in unit. Basically, S&W provides all the material needed to do it yourself. The big thing I was concerned about was the main hoop. This was something I could not bend up myself. As for the back supports, door supports, etc... I had to get creative. S&W provides tubes that are cut to "generic" lengths. From what I saw, most of these "generic" tubes were cut for use in a tubbed out Z car. For example, the "generic" rear supports landed right smack dab in the middle of the spare tire well. I had to shorten the bars a bit and increase the verical angle on them. It's pretty steep, but still within NHRA guidelines. Getting the main hoop to fit did require some finnessing One thing that S&W didn't account for was a decent seat brace. Basically, if you're taller than 5 feet, the seat brace needs to be set back. I stole this idea from Mike Kz's pictures in the readers rides. I only set the bar back two inches. I would recommend at least three inches for anyone close to the 6 foot mark (I'm 6'3"). All in all, I am very happy with the cage. A friend and myself installed it in about 6 hours. My friend is a very experienced welder, so that helped speed up the process a bit. The most important thing I learned about doing this was preparation. We had everything ready to go, and that made all the difference in the world. The following is a list of the tools I used: Wire Feed Mig welder Drill Press 2 1/16 metal hole saw Circular metal cut off saw Chisle (to get rid of all the insulation) ...and a whole lot of beer If you desire good welds, I recommend preium beer. If anybody looks at some of my welds, they can tell I cheaped out and went with Milwaukee's Best. As far as seemless tubing is concerned, that factor didn't play to heavily in my mind. If a bar is going to be loaded to the point where the weld is going to split... the crash would probably not be survivable regardless of what material was used. Just my $0.02 Good Luck in you search -Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted November 6, 2000 Share Posted November 6, 2000 Morgan, I'll take a pic of the tubing tonight, inside and out and post a pic of it so you can see. My lame ass mechanical engineering mind only knows of DOM as being the only way to make seamless tubig as well. O.k., I guess you could bore a piece of solid round stock, but that doesn't make any sense (unless you're making a gun barrel, etc.) My experience with tubing is nil. But it sure looks like it has a seam in it to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Locutus Posted November 6, 2000 Share Posted November 6, 2000 Whats scary Andy, is I understand it been doing alot of coding for my parents company lately myself(it so much more painful when you don't get paid for it) Take a break and go work on the car Thats what I do Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 6, 2000 Share Posted November 6, 2000 Nobody who has gotten it is worried about it being welded seam tubing? That seems rather unusual to me.... Their seamless kit is $350, which is still cheaper than the autopower u-weld-it cage kit. ------------------ Morgan http://z31.com/~morgan/s30 http://carfiche.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted November 6, 2000 Share Posted November 6, 2000 Morgan, I don't know why anyone would be concerned unless there was a rules restriction (Like SCCA) on it being DOM vs. welded seem tubing. If you are building an ITS racer, then by all means follow their rule book. Otherwise, I wouldn't be concerned at all. I have seen a bunch of cages from destroyed cars and most of them were not DOM tube, and the tubing did not catastrophicaly fail. I don't own an S&W cage, but I have an autopower 4 bolt bar with a DOM front section weled up and bolted to it. All of it will be welded in place and the bolts ditched over the winter. I'll also be adding onto the cage and going through the firewall at some point, but I'm not worried about DOM or welded tubes. The thickness of tubing is your big concern. The stuff S&W sells is good tubing. I wouldn't worry... Mike ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z-Dreamer Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 Morgan, check out Chassisworks, they make a cage for early model Z's. www.cachassisworks.com Mark ------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 I'm concerned because it's my life between the bars, no other reason. Kinda wonder why nhra allows welded tubing and scca doesn't. The cassis works stuff looks like welded tubing also - 0.134 is common welded tubing size. But who knows. Their prices are comparable to s&w. ------------------ Morgan http://z31.com/~morgan/s30 http://carfiche.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 Yes, I was concerned when I got the bar kit. I was hoping for DOM, but that's usually more expensive, so I wasn't too surprised. I guess I'm curious now about the seam in the tubing. It sure does look like it has a (laser?) welded seam on the wall. I know DOM is preferred, but is the seamed mild tubing in a .134 seamed tube that bad of a thing to make me run from it? I guess a talk with an independent racecar builder is in order - hmm. There are a few in my area that I will call. As far as pictures, there's a decent one of the outside wall of the tube in the area that looks welded at: http://members.home.net/pparaska/image/structuralmods/S&Wtubingouterwall.jpg And a out of focus (sorry) photo of the inside of the wall at: http://members.home.net/pparaska/image/structuralmods/S&Wtubinginnerwall.jpg http://members.home.net/pparaska/image/structuralmods/S&Wtubinginnerwall.jpg On the inner wall, there is a definite raised line along the tube. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 As far as I know, the big reasons people decide to go with seamless tubing instead of welded is because the seamless stuff can be used in a thinner wall and still meet the same strength requirements. (ie: a place for slight weight savings) I've used lots and lots of welded 1/2" and smaller tubing and NEVER, ever under any circumstances seen the weld split, no matter what was done to it. You have to remember that if a weld is done properly its mechanically stronger than the material it is welding. (definately not chemically stronger though) I can't say for certain, but I'd expect the only regulation differences between the two would be different allowances on wall thickness. ------------------ "Gimme Fuel, Gimme Fire, Gimme that which I desire" -Metallica Drax240z 1972 240z - L28TURBO transplant on the way! http://members.xoom.com/r_lewis/datsun.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 OK, I'm confused now! I called s&w and ordered the extra door bars and a few knick knacks and asked them about the seamless/welded tubing thing. Their normal cage/bar is 0.134 wall tubing, the guy said it was 'seamless' and that he hadn't ever seen a seam on the tubing. But they also sell a 0.120 wall 'DOM' cage that is scca legal and he also called it seamless. So, is the 0.134 wall standard cage(That is nhra legal) welded tubing(ie. formed by rolling strips of steel into a tube and welding the seam along the length) or is it 'seamless'? As far as my lame mechanical engineer butt is concerned, there is only 1 way I know of to make seamless tubing, and that is to draw it out over a mandrel, ie. "DOM" tubing. Any other tubing is welded seam tubing... Or am I mistaken about how tubing is manufactured? Help! ------------------ Morgan http://z31.com/~morgan/s30 http://carfiche.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Bayley Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 Hmmm... If it can't be described in ohm's law, I probably wont understand. My tubing DID have an apparent seam in it. I can't confirm that it was welded or not, but I did see a seam. void ROLLCAGE(void) { if unsigned char SEAM == WELDED { Quality = garbage } else { Deal = Good } } (some one has spent a few too many hours coding today... sorry) -Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Bayley Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 I agree... That S&W 8-point is quite the heavy weight. -Andy P.S. Mike, I think I would have a difficult time sneaking my car through the main lobby here to work on it [This message has been edited by Andrew Bayley (edited November 07, 2000).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 Well back when I was putting my cage into my car I spoke with two race car manufacturers about seamless tubing and bolting a cage in. Both told me that the only thing you gain from DOM is weight loss and a little (not a lot)added strength. The reason that Seamed tube is so much thicker is to compensate for it. About two years after the cage was put in my other Z I was struck by a 6500# plumbing truck. I was stopped and he was doing 40mph when he hit me and pushed my car into a Ford Taurus sedan. The rear bumper of my car was almost touching the drivers door and the hood of the car was touching the roof. I walked away without injury and no bolts in the roll cage broke. The cage also held its position. That cage was pulled from the wreck, x-rayed and now is in my existing car. Seam tube cages are fine. Mine saved my life. I plan to weld this cage up and add to it for strength and safety. I still say the S&W cages are fine and a bargain to boot. Chris C. and I are getting ready to stick one in his car! Mike ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 Oh well. If it's legal for a 6000 horsepower dragster that does 300 mph I guess it's good enough for my measly few hundred horsepower. Got the extra door bars, picking up cage this weekend. Time to get to work I guess! Any comments on gussetting the cage? like little triangular pieces of plate welded at the inside angle of every joint? Is there a danger of making a cage too stiff(I can't imagine that) or anything like that? Any suggestions on attaching it to the body? Just nice big plates to weld to, nothing special? ------------------ Morgan http://z31.com/~morgan/s30 http://carfiche.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.