Guest aarc240 Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 the point i was making about was a huge engine in a 1000kg car can work (as seen with the gt40). I wasn't trying to say that a 1000kg was fantastic although it is fairly light. Actually, I agree. Given the logic of a bigger engine has 'gotta be better' the GT40 really did represent a pinnacle in development. Probably just as well the rules were changed, Jim Hall was getting ready to jump in with his Chapparal weapons! God knows where it would have all ended up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aarc240 Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 Well lets see' date=', 700 pounds extra weight 500 extra horsepower I think the FE wins...... weigh a C6 automatic compaired to a stock 240Z tans... Big difference,,, not slight increase..... Also extra weight in beefing up the suspension to hold the extra horspower.... 240Z 15.3 lbs per horsepower 150 hp at 2300 lbs. FE 240Z 4.6 lbs. per horsepower 650 hp at 3000 lbs. Are you beginning to see the picture AARC240 ??[/quote'] Out of curiosity we just weighed a small block C6 (essentially the same except for the case in the bellhousing area) against a 5 speed Datsun box. The C6 is a 128 lb weight gain so yes it is 'somewhat heavier' as I said. Probably closer to 140 lb gain for the big block version. Haven't got a spare FE lying around anymore but when I was playing with those things it wasn't hard to get the weight down a surprising amount. Aluminum intake and 'other brand' aluminum water pump adaption plus tube headers gives a reasonable weight husky powerplant. It's possible to get an FE to weigh less than the 300CI six cylinder truck engine with more effort. That would be getting reasonably close to a Datsun L6! Even with the C6 and beefed up rear end ir should be possible to build a 2650 lb weapon. Now that would be a fun toy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie-GNZ Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 Actually' date=' I agree.Given the logic of a bigger engine has 'gotta be better' the GT40 really did represent a pinnacle in development. Probably just as well the rules were changed, Jim Hall was getting ready to jump in with his Chapparal weapons! God knows where it would have all ended up.[/quote'] Guys, the GT40 does not belong in any comparative discussions on big engines in a Z-car. The GT40 was a mid-engine car. When you are thinking of all the HP you can get from a big block, lets not forget what it does the F-R weight distribution. No amount of suspension beefing can adjust that. As for the torque difference between a 427 smallblock and a 427 big block, do you really think it will matter in a Z if one has 500 and the other has 525? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s3079893 Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 Yeah Scottie this is true, i believe though if you gut the firewall a little bit and sit the engine as far back as possible you could acheive a mass distribution similar to that of the gt40. How much does the big block weigh (with the aluminium bits) anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingnutthehutt Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 Guys, you're not listening. The GT40 is a MID ENGINED CAR! That means, that the engine is mounted between the front and rear axles. 99% of the time, as in the case of the GT40, that means it's behind the driver. This is done for weight distribution. It doesn't matter if you put a 2000HP motor in the engine bay. If it adds 700 pounds to the front of the car (in front of the driver, set over the front wheels) it's going to handle like crapola! Listen to Scottie, he's been there, done that, and his car will annihilate yours. s3079893, Maxtor said at the beginning that he didn't want to do any modification of the engine compartment unless absolutely necessary. Pushing the firewall back SEVERAL inches to regain the proper 52/48 weight distribution ratio that a Z has would be expensive, time consuming, and or pointless. Maxtor, if you're interested in Fords in a Z, do a search for BlueovalZ in the members section and read a few of his posts. He has a very nice Z with a Ford swap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxtor Posted June 24, 2006 Author Share Posted June 24, 2006 Yes, you all have very good points. I have a 240Z with a ZZ3 engine and many many hours and about $15,000 into it. If I sold it today, I might be able to get $10,000 out of it. I have done some research on putting a FE into the other 240Z that I have, and found that the only way it is going to fit is to do extensive cutting. One of the reasons that I wanted to put the FE into the 240Z is because of the high horsepower and because I have five 428's and one 427 engine. To get back to my point is that after all the modifications to the 240Z to make the engine fit, the value of the car would not be worth the time, expense and engine. Therefore in my case, I am going to look for a AC Cobra kit to put one of my engines in. First off, the AC Cobra is engineered for this engine, and when the engine is installed, it increases the value of the AC Cobra by about $10,000 over the small block. If someone installs an FE engine in a 240Z, it would be best used for drag racing, and should put the Z into the 9's. If they used it for road racing, it would be way to front end heavy to be competitive, unless they used an aluminum block, heads, intake, water pump etc. Then the cost would be many times the value of the 240Z. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s3079893 Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 Once again the point i was making is that just because the car is light doesn't mean it can't have a heavy and powerful engine. Yes the z and gt40 are obviously very different cars i know. The points I were making were purley 'what if' and not nessaraly direct advise for maxtor. If you were however going the go to the effort of cutting out the sides of the enginebay to make the engine fit you probably would consider cutting the fire wall back a bit as well. This would give you a good mass distribution and the car could corner well. This car would be MID ENGINE yes? The list of cars which have successfully used heavy powerful engines with a (front) mid engine configuration is also large (perhaps i should have measinged one of these cars rather than the gt40 to begin with) Maxtor if your looking to make money, there are probably better investments to be made than modifing cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingnutthehutt Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 I tried to keep my mouth shut, but... Ever heard of a power to weight ratio? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxtor Posted June 26, 2006 Author Share Posted June 26, 2006 I agree with you.. I have been building and racing cars since before most of you have been born, and very few of the cars sold for as much as I had in them. Racers like to race, and cost is secondary (if you have the money). But as we get older we hope to recoop some of our expenses from time to time. The point I was trying to make is that most of us build cars for the fun of driving them, and If you have a choice of building a car that cost you $20,000 or more, why not build one that when you are finished, it is worth $20,000. If you put $60,000 into a AC Cobra, it will be worth $60,000 plus. If you put $25,000 into a FE 240Z, it might be worth $15,000. Unless you plan on being buried with the car, at some time you will want to sell it. A good chassis builder could build a FE 240Z for a lot less money, and have a great time with it, but most of us would have to hire it done. I hope that someone will build a FE 240Z, because it would be awsome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s3079893 Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 Thats an extremely good point maxtor, that to be honest i didn't look into before doing my conversion and probably should have, i geuss i dont have any short terms plan to sell my car though. Please maxtor if you do decide to build a corbra, keep as informed with your progress on this site, because i know my self for one would love to see that sort of thing come together. wingnutthehutt, please dont try to belittle me, ive been studing dynamics and mechanics for the past three years at uni. Power to weight ratio for the said car would be excelent btw. Sure you could achieve a similiar power to weight with a smaller engine. however the low down torque of an engine as large as a 427, would give throttle pick up second to none, it would be an amazing car to drive. I'm sorry if this post came on alittle strong, im not trying to put my point across agressively, i'm just trying to be constructive here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxtor Posted June 27, 2006 Author Share Posted June 27, 2006 Take a look at August's issue of Hot Rodding and they show you how to build a 752 hp FE engine. 600 to 650 hp is easy to make without breaking the bank. This forum has some good people with good ideas, and I hope that someone someday will make a FE Z. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 I know this thred has gotten a little old, but I'd like to make a little point. Wouldn't the tranny change make just as much, if not more of the difference as the motor change? And sure the 427 would be heavier, but it's also a shorter motor to begin with. So #1 You'd be adding a good percentage of weight pretty close to the middle of the car with the tranny, and #2 The motor would guarenteed sit farther back. The L is cast iron block, cast iron head, and it's inline. If we're looking at a high HP turbo L series now you have to add the weight of the turbo, intercooler, and piping. The 427 shouldn't be THAT much heavier than a turbo L series and the weight will be much farther back. All i'm getting at is that I don't think a 427FE would kill the weight distro of a S30. And personally I like the idea of a 427W better than a 427FE, but that's just me. Not that I think it's better all together or anything, but I think it has many advantaged for what 'I' want a car for. If it's a drag purpose car I guess the FE would be the logical choice though. Just out of curiousity, what kit are you planning on going with for the cobra maxtor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxtor Posted July 23, 2006 Author Share Posted July 23, 2006 I am looking at them all. I have received some brochures on the Superformance kit, and they seem to be the best out there, but they are not cheep. Many of the kits are specializing in the small block, so I have to do some research on the best handleing kit for the big block. Each vendor goes about it a little differently. If I can get the money together, it will probably be the Superformance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 Well, there's guys with factory five kits with supercharged 4v modular motors that are ginormous so i'm sure you could ask them how thier car handles. FFR kits will also accept nearly all ford motors and FFR will work with you to make sure you have all the hardward required for THAT motor you plan on using. I know FFR doesn't have the most "accurate" kit out there but it's the best quality/$$$ ratio that I've found. The superperformance stuff is nice, but like you said, it's seen in the cost of the kit. I hope it all goes well for you. Just make sure to find a GOOD DMV to get your SB100 at. Some DMV's don't have much experience with them so while you're sitting there on January 1st waiting for them to figure out what they're doing the rest of the SB100's could slip right out from under you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxtor Posted July 24, 2006 Author Share Posted July 24, 2006 When you say THAT engine, let me enlighten you on why I am going to use the FE. 1. I have a bunch of them. 2. I can make 700 hp with the stuff I have in my garage. 3. I am getting old, and someday after I leave this earth, my wife is going to sell the car, and a Cobra is worth a lot more with a 427 or 428 FE engine than any other engine. 4. I have a 240Z with a 400 hp sbc and at Thunderhill Raceway, I have not had a corvette or porsche pass me yet on the straight, and with the FE Cobra, it will have 300 more hp. at the same weight. 5. Shelby would smile.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twoeightythreez Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 L motor is aluminum head unless it's a diesel. Not agreeing or disagreeing on the rest of the forum, but one thing I'm sure of is that the L24-26-28 has an aluminum head. If it had an IRON head than nobody would say squat about keeping it there because a typical V-8 swap would weigh LESS and move the weight rearward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twoeightythreez Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 And, nobody is saying don't do the FE swap, they're just telling you that you will kill the weight distribution, unless you do extensive mods to the body. I'm sure everyone here can't wait for you to start the project, and see pics! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 Don't get me wrong maxtor, I respect your choice of the FE and understand your point of view. I was just saying that FFR kits are adaptable for the FE motors without sourcing custom parts. They'll give you everything you need (and can point you in the right direction if there IS something you'll have to outsource). And twoeightythreez, thanks for the correction, maybe if my motor wasn't so dirty I'd know it had an aluminium head Honestly I wasn't 100% sure about the head and was hoping someone would correct me. Wich is why I stated the block and head seperately. It's all good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aarc240 Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 FE in a Cobra - now THAT makes a lot more sense. Nit picking now: who got the idea that the Cobra was engineered for a V8 (of any description)?? The original car was an AC Bristol and had an oddball straight six Bristol engine. A good tubular steel chassis with well developed suspension and steering all wrapped in a really neat aluminium body (since it was English I'll use their spelling). Carrol Shelby took that basis and stuffed the Ford SMALL BLOCK 289ci engine in there to make a much better car. The big block FE was a later 'hotrod' modification primarily for racing. Back to Datsun, my supercharged L28 weighs in just 33lbs heavier than stock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 Well most of the cobra kits ARE engineered for a V8, just nitpicking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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