spotfitz Posted February 11, 2001 Share Posted February 11, 2001 I have searched to no avail. I will be hammering in my stub axles tomorrow and I guess buying a torque wrench that will go beyond 240ft.lbs.(always like an excuse to buy more tools). What I am concerned with is the preload. My Haynes speaks of a spring balance. I have never heard of such an animal. Is it a big concern? I guess I could just check preload and if it isn't correct just torque it down more checking preload as described? I would hate to pull all this apart again after frying my new bearings. I have read alot of posts on pulling/installing stub axles on multiple forums and not seen anything concerning this problem. Is it really a problem? BTW, the brackets went on fine, but have yet to test the offset. I'll know whether it all works out tomorrow. I'll have to have one of my halfshafts fitted with new u-joints, which I have. That will come Mon. Might as well send in my drive shaft while I'm at it. Sometimes buying in advance can be a good thing, but I wish I would have found out about the bracket fiasco before buying rotors and calipers. SCCA would have been happier and so would I. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted February 11, 2001 Share Posted February 11, 2001 If you are using the same spacer between the bearings and the same strut housing, that both have a letter (A, B, or C) stamped on them, and the letters are the same, you'll likely have not problem with preload. The letters are used to handle the slight manufacturing variation in the strut housing and the spacer is used to match to 3 different ranges of measurements in the race-to-race distance in the housings. I usually just give the stub a whirl with my hand after torquing to see if I think it's binding or really loose. A spring scale is just like a spring type fish scale that you hang a fish on. It measures the force that is needed to rotate the stub at a constant speed, and therefore, a preload drag torque. I suppose with a little bit of calculation and using a small torque wrench at the right angle on the stud, you could duplicate this test. There's an excuse to buy a tiny torque wrench! Hope that helps, ------------------ Pete Paraska - 73 540Z - Marathon Z Project pparaska@home.com Pete's V8 Datsun 240Z Pages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted February 11, 2001 Share Posted February 11, 2001 I don't believe this will be anything to be concerned about. In fact my understanding of the axle assembly is that because you have a spacer between the two bearing inner races (rear bearings only), no matter how much torque you put on the nut, this will not affect the preload. Also, I think that the spacer/housing has to be a matched set (matching letters), but this shouldn't be an issue here either if you're not swapping pieces around (anybody else know if I remember this correctly?). Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted February 11, 2001 Share Posted February 11, 2001 Terry, I believe that what you are saying is true IF the same lettered strut housing and spacer are used. Like you said, if you haven't swapped housings or spacers around, I think you'll be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danno74Z Posted February 11, 2001 Share Posted February 11, 2001 spotfitz, This is directly from the shop/service manual. Tightening torque (182 to 239 ft-lb) To assemble: (most important paragraph) Tighten wheel bearing lock nut, and measure the preload and rear axle shaft end play. Readjust as required. Wheel bearing preload: 3.9 in-lb At the hub bolt 27.9 oz or less Rear axle shaft end play: 0 to .0059 in Caulk wheel nuts securely after tightening. Can someone interpret what all this means? Readjust as required - how? The distance piece I have is a B part does one tighten the nut until you get - At the hub bolt 27.9 oz or less preload? 181 to 239 is quite a range so I figure one continues to tighten the nut up to 239 but once you hit 27.9 oz you stop. Is this how its done? I just received all new bearings and seals and I don't want to ruin them or have the axle come loose! Thanks Danno74Z PS I will scan this page of the manual and send it to anybody who wants it for reference. My new email address is: laurizio@ezlink.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spotfitz Posted February 11, 2001 Author Share Posted February 11, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Danno74Z: spotfitz, This is directly from the shop/service manual. Tightening torque (182 to 239 ft-lb) To assemble: (most important paragraph) Tighten wheel bearing lock nut, and measure the preload and rear axle shaft end play. Readjust as required. Wheel bearing preload: 3.9 in-lb At the hub bolt 27.9 oz or less Rear axle shaft end play: 0 to .0059 in Caulk wheel nuts securely after tightening. Can someone interpret what all this means? Readjust as required - how? The distance piece I have is a B part does one tighten the nut until you get - At the hub bolt 27.9 oz or less preload? 181 to 239 is quite a range so I figure one continues to tighten the nut up to 239 but once you hit 27.9 oz you stop. Is this how its done? I just received all new bearings and seals and I don't want to ruin them or have the axle come loose! Thanks Danno74Z PS I will scan this page of the manual and send it to anybody who wants it for reference. My new email address is: laurizio@ezlink.com That is basically what the Haynes says, but the preload in "between 25 and 30 oz." AND "When the preload is correctly set, the endfloat of the rear axle shaft stub should not exceed 0.0057in." Danno, I get the same thing of these statements. I think pparaska and blueovalz have it all together. As pparaska said, If you haven't switched parts around, which I labeled mine before I sent them in to replace the outer bearing, everything should be ok. I think I'll just torque it down and give her a spin. Torque somemore. Thats what I have done in the past with front hubs. Never burned any up before. I've just never played with independent rears before. Love the handling. Just afew more parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsil Posted February 11, 2001 Share Posted February 11, 2001 Ok, I have another question for you guys. How far does the bearing go in to the housing (outer) when it's seated? I thought the the bearing was close to the outer edge of the housing, but maybe I'm wrong. I haven't done the rears before, so I'm curious. Thanks AL ------------------ http://zcar.netdojo.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spotfitz Posted February 11, 2001 Author Share Posted February 11, 2001 quote: Originally posted by alsil: Ok, I have another question for you guys. How far does the bearing go in to the housing (outer) when it's seated? I thought the the bearing was close to the outer edge of the housing, but maybe I'm wrong. I haven't done the rears before, so I'm curious. Thanks AL The inside bearing face goes into the axle housing 1 3/16" until it hits it's stopping point at the back of the race. If looking down on the stub axle and housing, the thin metal ring that the studs go through on the back of the stub axle will cover the housing. This metal ring will be centered in the "groove" on the outside of the housing. I just picked up the flange for the slide hammer and can give you an exact measurement from bracket mounting surface to the back of the stub axle surface in about 20 minutes. I'll just edit it in this post. It's just 1/32" over 1 3/4" from the bracket mounting surface to the back of the stub axle. You should hear the difference in the noise the hammering makes once you "hit bottom". I just slammed the left side together and put the rotor on and the caliper hanger to see if everything lined up. Well, the hanger is sitting alittle closer to the rotor then I expected, but it also looks like one of the ears is bent towards the rotor. I'm going to see what I can do with the ear. If all else fails I can put a 2mm shim between the rotor and hub and everything will line up nicely. (Big sigh of relieve!) I haven't bought the torque wrench yet, but they wanted $90 rental retainer at Auto Zone. I'll still buy one, but not today. [This message has been edited by spotfitz (edited February 11, 2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danno74Z Posted February 12, 2001 Share Posted February 12, 2001 Spotfitz, Thank you for the help on the bearings. I went out to the shop and cleaned all the old grease out and you are correct. Everything is fine inside the carrier so all I need to do is grease up the new bearings and I'm set. I shopped around and British Victoria had the best prices for bearings. With 500 members it would be nice to have one of the retailers would give us a price break on parts. Thanks again. Danno74Z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spotfitz Posted February 12, 2001 Author Share Posted February 12, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Danno74Z: Spotfitz, Thank you for the help on the bearings. I went out to the shop and cleaned all the old grease out and you are correct. Everything is fine inside the carrier so all I need to do is grease up the new bearings and I'm set. I shopped around and British Victoria had the best prices for bearings. With 500 members it would be nice to have one of the retailers would give us a price break on parts. Thanks again. Danno74Z I managed to get my rear bearings for almost half of what I could get them for from MSA or Vic Brit. Total was $112 w/ seals and they were Federal Mogul which is what everyone else sells. I purchased them from Carquest up the road from where I work. It took a week to get one of the seals, but I think I would have waited longer on our normal sources to ship them to me. Good luck with the axles and don't get your finger caught between the slide hammer. Don't ask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted February 12, 2001 Share Posted February 12, 2001 You guys are confusing me. The bearings on the stub axles are ball bearings with the outer race as a non-removable part of the bearing. The outer bearing is sealed on one side, the one that goes toward the lug stud flange. The other side is open. The inner bearing is open on both sides. When you have a machine shop swap the bearings, you might want to point out taht one side is sealed and goes against the flange. They know that, but it's good to just be sure. They should have a bearing splitter plate to go in behind the bearing to press it off. And seriously, if you're going this far, have them shot peened and magnafluxed to check for problems at the flange/axle weld and at the splines. The peening will close up stress risers as well. I believe this is what the NISMO parts had done to them to make them stronger than the stock ones. [This message has been edited by pparaska (edited February 11, 2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danno74Z Posted February 12, 2001 Share Posted February 12, 2001 Spotfitz, I have a question for you and hopefully it is not a dumb one. Like I said, I purchased all new bearings and seals for all 4 wheels. I noticed the rear bearings did not come with any races like the fronts is this normal? I helped a friend remove the fronts and clearly races needed to be punched out and replaced with the matching mate. I haven't removed all the grease from the rear housing yet to see what is in there. I know the outer bearing came out with the axle and the inner bearing is still in the housing. I'm assuming the outer bearing needs to be pressed on the axle shaft and the inner bearing needs to be pulled out with a bearing puller. Is all this correct? Again what about the races I'm very curious about that. Thanks Danno74Z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spotfitz Posted February 12, 2001 Author Share Posted February 12, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Danno74Z: Spotfitz, I have a question for you and hopefully it is not a dumb one. Like I said, I purchased all new bearings and seals for all 4 wheels. I noticed the rear bearings did not come with any races like the fronts is this normal? I helped a friend remove the fronts and clearly races needed to be punched out and replaced with the matching mate. I haven't removed all the grease from the rear housing yet to see what is in there. I know the outer bearing came out with the axle and the inner bearing is still in the housing. I'm assuming the outer bearing needs to be pressed on the axle shaft and the inner bearing needs to be pulled out with a bearing puller. Is all this correct? Again what about the races I'm very curious about that. Thanks Danno74Z These bearings are what you call a sealed bearing. They are self contained. The out side of the brearing doesn't move once it is in place. I thought the same thing when I got my bearings, where are the races? The races in the housing are fine as long as you didn't burn the old bearings up causing heat to expand the housing and race giving a loose fit for the new bearing. Check for cracks in the race, if none, you will be ok. Removing the races has to be done at a machine shop from what I can tell. There is NO place to grab them. Well, everything is lining up. I chose to grind the face of the bracket done for the clearance as apposed to using shims on the rotor. Now I have to reroute my hard and braided brake lines to clear the caliper. These brackets put the caliper at an upward angle from horizontal putting the e-brake cable straight through the first hard line bracket on the body. Oh well. Atleast the brackets work. PS. I found that when putting the new inner bearing back in you can use the old bearing as a drift. You have enough clearance to avound getting the old bearing lock in behind the new one. And yes, a machine shop will have to take care of the outer bearing. Should cost about $15 a side. Go ahead and get them to do the studs for another $5 per side while their at it. [This message has been edited by spotfitz (edited February 11, 2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeromio Posted February 12, 2001 Share Posted February 12, 2001 Oh crap. I removed my stub axles from both carriers, but I didn't mark them or anything - didn't realize that the stubs and carriers were matched sets. I guess I can only hope that when I clean the grease off of the stubs, their spacers are the same. Otherwise, I have a 50-50 chance I suppose. Ignorance is not bliss. I did read the shop manual before I started. Don't know how I missed that part about the specificity of the spacers. As to having the bearings pressed out, no local shop would do it for me. When I knocked the stubs out, the outer bearings came out with the stubs. I haven't messed with the stubs yet - I suppose those bearings are locked on there. When I removed the grease seals from the carriers, the inner bearings fell out. Could've been much worse. Things were very orange in there and not all that much grease. I'm guessing the seal failed at some point. I'm gonna go ahead and put longer wheel studs in. There's no way I want to have to take all this apart ever again. I figure I may not be able to use the pretty, capped lug nuts, but at least I'll have some flexibility down the road when I finally get some wheels (More than likely I'll have to use wheel spacers). I got my bearings from Advanced for $22 each ($88 total). Only Carquest had the R200 front Pinion seal, $8 each (using them as bearing seals for 240Z stubs and ZXT CV axles). ------------------ 240Z.jeromio.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted February 12, 2001 Share Posted February 12, 2001 Jeromio, you're probably still in good shape. The stubs aren't really matched to the struts or anything. There's some variance in them, for sure, but probably smaller than would matter. The issue is to use the correct spacer or distance piece between the bearings in the strut. The only ones I've ever seen are the "B" ones, the middle of the tolerance range. Check to see what is stamped on the strut housing (I can't remember where it is stamped, but it's on the outside of the casting I believe), and make sure the letter on the spacer matches the strut. BTW, the spacer marked B usually looks like an E, since it's hard to make a letter from a flat letter punch imprint well on a small curved surface. Anyway, an A or C wouldn't be confused with a B that looks like an E. When I put stubs in, I install the inner bearing first to get the stub going in straight (at least I can eyeball the end of the stub in the center of the inner race). Of course, this is after packing the strut housing with grease. Put the spacer and any copper washers that were there on the stub axle, grease the outer bearing, and start tapping it in, using the inner race as a guide to keeing it going in straight. If it's not going in easy, then find out why. You don't want to be hitting that stuff very hard, as it will ruin the outer bearing. The stub will end up pushing the bearing back out. Go slow and tap it back in around the inner race with a brass drift, being careful not to mar the threads or splines. This way, you will get around the problem of installing the inner bearing after the fact when the stub and the strut housing are both resisting you. Also, when reseating the inner bearing while and after the stub is in, tap around both the inner and outer race with a brass drift. This way you are tapping on the inner race and outer race alternately to keep from loading the ball bearings against the sides of the races too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted February 12, 2001 Share Posted February 12, 2001 What Pete says... Has anyone seen an "A" or a "C" spacer? I've dug around in a lot of Z rear strut housings and I've never seen anything but a "B" spacer. ------------------ John Coffey johnc@betamotorsports.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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